2016 American Presidential Campaign

[JessFR]

I certainly won't deny that rightly or wrongly, Australians feel free enough that they're happy with the way things are.

Ultimately I've come to just accept that Australia is fine for Australians, but it's not fine for me. So I don't even try and convince anyone in Australia of my way of seeing things anymore.

 

[quiet roar]

Brilliant!!

 

[JessFR]

The thing you gotta understand is. Where you're raised has a big impact on your values, and your experiences validate or invalidate those values. Australians by and large really honestly don't want, or feel they need, the kind philosophy of rights that America has. They aren't brought up to feel like they're missing anything, and they're brought up with a generally very negative view of the US. and it all adds up to Australians simply not wanting the kind of rights the US has. They don't think they need them and feel that we are arrogant for feeling we have the monopoly on rights. And to be honest, there might be a grain of truth to that. So long as you don't personally want to exercise the rights you can in the US. Australia is a perfectly fine place to live. And that applies to most Australians.

Now that isn't something I approve of and I don't agree with their way of thinking, but ultimately they live with a high quality of life and are on the whole happy with being Australian, so the way things are seem to work for them. But if you come from a more American philosophy and thinking of what you should have the right to do, it can seem intolerable. And to me it DOES feel intolerable. But who am I to tell them their way is wrong. I'm technically an Australian citizen with the right to vote and hold office. But I didn't grow up here, this doesn't feel like my home, and because of my accent, Australians don't think of me as one of them and never will. So I don't feel like one of them and they don't see me as one of them. And in truth, in the ways that matter I don't think I AM one of them. And I'm sure if id grown up here when I was little id probably feel very differently.

Why don't I leave? I have family here and was moved here by that family, I also have American family over in Florida and Chicago. And much as id like to return, I'm a drug addict, I have no money most of the time, my bf whom I love is an Australian and I refuse to go anywhere without him. For the time being it's not feasible for me to leave and go home. Maybe one day that will change, but for the time being I've simply had to find a way to live here without the extreme culture of antiamericanness from driving me mad.

And you know, there really are some things where I think we could learn from Australias way of doing things. They have a much stronger system of harm reduction for drug users nationwide. A much more lenient justice system on the whole for drug offenses. And a mixed private and public health system which seems to me to work fairly damn well

Likewise,I think things are far too nannystate here, way too wrapped in bubble wrap and way too controlled. I don't like the cpnstraints on free speech and I will never believe that people, women especially shouldn't be able to own.. Hell, forget guns for a sec, how about ANYTHING to defend themselves. Even stun guns and fkin pepper spray are banned here. You are allowed NOTHING VIOLENT for self defense whatsoever.

So, when people ask me which country I prefer, I know my true loyalty, I'm an American and I can't help that. And because of that there are a lot of things I don't like about living here. But I'm willing to admit, it's not ALL bad.

 

[My3sons]

I don't really follow politics so don't have much to offer. I don't like either candidate. My question is does popular vote really count for anything anyway? If Trump won popular and Clinton won electoral would Clinton not be president? Am I wrong? I honestly don't know much about politics but if my understanding is correct what does it matter what the people want?

 

[spacejunk]

Jess, there are lots of different Australians, as there are many different types of Americans.
Frankly, it sounds like you encounter a lot of dickheads - the sort of people i actively avoid and only come in contact with when i have no choice.
I'm sorry to hear you don't feel respected here - but frankly, you should see what it's like being an Australian (or part Australian) in the US! It's pretty crazy.
A lot of aussies i know deliberately change their accents when they're in America so they can be simply understood by the locals (it's fucking weird to go order lunch at a cafe and have the person taking your order just stare at you blankly and go "say what?" when they hear your accent).
Someone close to me has an american-adapted accent that reverts to her original Australian accent when she comes here to visit - because she can be properly understood here - but when i talk to her on the phone from the states, she still sounds a bit american. It's weird. But she's a dual citizen too - and she'll never be treated like an american either. She's lived there for about 20 years.

So it cuts both ways...

When American waiters can't understand me, it's pretty bizarre. We are both speaking English, but it seems that often Americans have very little exposure to people from other English-speaking countries (or their accents, at least) - so they can't understand a word i say. And i don't have an ' ocker' Aussie accent.
So you might feel like Australians don't accept you - but that experience is pretty common for anyone who travels, or lives in different places, isn't it?

I dunno, i've lived in Australia for most of my life - but people quite often ask me where i'm from (Australians assuming i'm not Australian).
Cultural identity is weird. I try not to take it too seriously.

American mass media is so pervasive that it saturates the US market - creating a cultural insularity but is also exported to almost the whole world.
That's part of the reason aussies are aware of - and interested in - American cutlure, politics and perspectives.

Also, the Australian government is a fucking US govt lapdog - so the US Presidential elections can decide the direction our country takes as well. There are good reasons for Australians to keep an eye on what is going on in US politics - it affects this country, and potentially all other countries - as well.

I don't want to argue with you about your experience as a dual (?) citizen, because as i say - i'm sorry to hear that's the way you feel.
But it kinda goes with the territory. Yes, some Australians are incredibly racist. Australia's history is one of institutionalised racism.
Just like the USA - and a hell of a lot of other places.

But there are lots of reasons Australians are opinionated about American issues, it's nothing personal

 

[alasdairm]

The thing you gotta understand is. Where you're raised has a big impact on your values, and your experiences validate or invalidate those values. Australians by and large really honestly don't want, or feel they need, the kind philosophy of rights that America has. They aren't brought up to feel like they're missing anything, and they're brought up with a generally very negative view of the US. and it all adds up to Australians simply not wanting the kind of rights the US has. They don't think they need them and feel that we are arrogant for feeling we have the monopoly on rights. And to be honest, there might be a grain of truth to that. So long as you don't personally want to exercise the rights you can in the US. Australia is a perfectly fine place to live. And that applies to most Australians.

Now that isn't something I approve of and I don't agree with their way of thinking, but ultimately they live with a high quality of life and are on the whole happy with being Australian, so the way things are seem to work for them. But if you come from a more American philosophy and thinking of what you should have the right to do, it can seem intolerable. And to me it DOES feel intolerable. But who am I to tell them their way is wrong. I'm technically an Australian citizen with the right to vote and hold office. But I didn't grow up here, this doesn't feel like my home, and because of my accent, Australians don't think of me as one of them and never will. So I don't feel like one of them and they don't see me as one of them. And in truth, in the ways that matter I don't think I AM one of them. And I'm sure if id grown up here when I was little id probably feel very differently.

indeed. thanks for your well-considered responses.

...I've simply had to find a way to live here without the extreme culture of antiamericanness from driving me mad.

i imagine that must be a challenge.

i'm a naturalized u.s. citizen and i have to endure abuse on this board from a couple of vocal bluelighters for not being a 'real' american. it's odd.

when you're told by an american that his opinion of your australian experience is somehow more valid than your own, it is a head-scratcher. couple that with being constantly told that america is #1 (which it obviously is in some categories but definitely is not in some other categories which are, frankly, embarrassing) it's easy to see why that kind of arrogance creates friction.

If Trump won popular and Clinton won electoral would Clinton not be president?

she would.

Am I wrong? I honestly don't know much about politics but if my understanding is correct what does it matter what the people want?

the u.s. system is designed in such a way that's it's possible for one candidate to win the popular vote but lose the election. it's happened 4 times: John Quincy Adams (1824); Rutherford B. Hayes (1876); Benjamin Harrison (1888); George W. Bush (2000)

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

A Letter From G.O.P. National Security Officials Opposing Donald Trump

this isn't democrats, or biased liberal media, these are republican national security officials, some of whom served under gwb.

The undersigned individuals have all served in senior national security and/or foreign policy positions in Republican Administrations, from Richard Nixon to George W. Bush. We have worked directly on national security issues with these Republican Presidents and/or their principal advisers during wartime and other periods of crisis, through successes and failures. We know the personal qualities required of a President of the United States.

None of us will vote for Donald Trump.

From a foreign policy perspective, Donald Trump is not qualified to be President and Commander-in-Chief. Indeed, we are convinced that he would be a dangerous President and would put at risk our country’s national security and well-being.

Most fundamentally, Mr. Trump lacks the character, values, and experience to be President. He weakens U.S. moral authority as the leader of the free world. He appears to lack basic knowledge about and belief in the U.S. Constitution, U.S. laws, and U.S. institutions, including religious tolerance, freedom of the press, and an independent judiciary.

In addition, Mr. Trump has demonstrated repeatedly that he has little understanding of America’s vital national interests, its complex diplomatic challenges, its indispensable alliances, and the democratic values on which U.S. foreign policy must be based. At the same time, he persistently compliments our adversaries and threatens our allies and friends. Unlike previous Presidents who had limited experience in foreign affairs, Mr. Trump has shown no interest in educating himself. He continues to display an alarming ignorance of basic facts of contemporary international politics. Despite his lack of knowledge, Mr. Trump claims that he understands foreign affairs and “knows more about ISIS than the generals do.”

Mr. Trump lacks the temperament to be President. In our experience, a President must be willing to listen to his advisers and department heads; must encourage consideration of conflicting views; and must acknowledge errors and learn from them. A President must be disciplined, control emotions, and act only after reflection and careful deliberation. A President must maintain cordial relationships with leaders of countries of different backgrounds and must have their respect and trust.

In our judgment, Mr. Trump has none of these critical qualities. He is unable or unwilling to separate truth from falsehood. He does not encourage conflicting views. He lacks self-control and acts impetuously. He cannot tolerate personal criticism. He has alarmed our closest allies with his erratic behavior. All of these are dangerous qualities in an individual who aspires to be President and Commanderin-Chief, with command of the U.S. nuclear arsenal.

We understand that many Americans are profoundly frustrated with the federal government and its inability to solve pressing domestic and international problems. We also know that many have doubts about Hillary Clinton, as do many of us. But Donald Trump is not the answer to America’s daunting challenges and to this crucial election. We are convinced that in the Oval Office, he would be the most reckless President in American history.

(my emphasis)

polling seems to suggest that undecided voters are seeing this to be true and are leaning away from voting for trump.

alasdair

 

[My3sons]

So what's the point of popular vote?

 

[alasdairm]

even though it does not legally matter, media and people like to track it as a general indicator, i think.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

Jess, there are lots of different Australians, as there are many different types of Americans.
Frankly, it sounds like you encounter a lot of dickheads - the sort of people i actively avoid and only come in contact with when i have no choice.
I'm sorry to hear you don't feel respected here - but frankly, you should see what it's like being an Australian (or part Australian) in the US! It's pretty crazy.
A lot of aussies i know deliberately change their accents when they're in America so they can be simply understood by the locals (it's fucking weird to go order lunch at a cafe and have the person taking your order just stare at you blankly and go "say what?" when they hear your accent).
Someone close to me has an american-adapted accent that reverts to her original Australian accent when she comes here to visit - because she can be properly understood here - but when i talk to her on the phone from the states, she still sounds a bit american. It's weird. But she's a dual citizen too - and she'll never be treated like an american either. She's lived there for about 20 years.

So it cuts both ways...

When American waiters can't understand me, it's pretty bizarre. We are both speaking English, but it seems that often Americans have very little exposure to people from other English-speaking countries (or their accents, at least) - so they can't understand a word i say. And i don't have an ' ocker' Aussie accent.
So you might feel like Australians don't accept you - but that experience is pretty common for anyone who travels, or lives in different places, isn't it?

I dunno, i've lived in Australia for most of my life - but people quite often ask me where i'm from (Australians assuming i'm not Australian).
Cultural identity is weird. I try not to take it too seriously.

American mass media is so pervasive that it saturates the US market - creating a cultural insularity but is also exported to almost the whole world.
That's part of the reason aussies are aware of - and interested in - American cutlure, politics and perspectives.

Also, the Australian government is a fucking US govt lapdog - so the US Presidential elections can decide the direction our country takes as well. There are good reasons for Australians to keep an eye on what is going on in US politics - it affects this country, and potentially all other countries - as well.

I don't want to argue with you about your experience as a dual (?) citizen, because as i say - i'm sorry to hear that's the way you feel.
But it kinda goes with the territory. Yes, some Australians are incredibly racist. Australia's history is one of institutionalised racism.
Just like the USA - and a hell of a lot of other places.

But there are lots of reasons Australians are opinionated about American issues, it's nothing personal

Hey spacejunk, I was waiting for you to show up .

I'm not surprised at all that it cuts both ways, when I say how I feel treated here, it's simply to give some context to how I feel, I'm not saying it's unique Australian. Unfortunately the tendency to reject difference is, ironically, something where we are ALL alike.

I get that it's not personal, but it's obviously going to grow tiring.

I don't really disagree with anything you've said, but I do there there are clear and noticeable differences in cultural views in how Australians think about rights and freedoms and how Americans do, taken as an average generalization of course. I can accept that it works for Australians, but like when any two cultures mix, when Americans and Australians mix, like say here, I can see why it repeatedly generates the same disagreements and arguments over and over.

I don't really follow politics so don't have much to offer. I don't like either candidate. My question is does popular vote really count for anything anyway? If Trump won popular and Clinton won electoral would Clinton not be president? Am I wrong? I honestly don't know much about politics but if my understanding is correct what does it matter what the people want?

You're right that the president is NOT elected in a direct majority wins vote by the population. You're wrong that popular vote has no influence.

Ok, so, my history memory here is a little fuzzy so you may wanna fact check this a little, but it basically goes like this.

As you're probably aware, there's a group of people called the electoral college, these people are electors who have pledged to vote for a particular candidate, and your state runs a system to elect the electors.

You might be wondering if these electors can vote against whom they pledged they'd vote for. It depends on the state, in some states you can in theory do that, it's called being a faithless elector. But it has never effected the result of an election in US history.

Ok, so, to maximize each states influence in the election, most use what's known as a winner takes all system. That means that whichever candidate wins the most votes in that state, that candidate gets ALL the electoral votes that state is allocated. Each state is entitled to at least two electors, and you get electors the same way you get the number of congressmen you're entitled too. Only two states use a system other than winner takes all, Nebraska and Maine.

What this all means is, the people don't elect the president, they vote for how their states chooses their electors, who themselves elect the president, and vp.

Why is this the case? Because the United States of America was not envisioned as being the kind of country you think of it as. You're supposed to be thinking of the federal election in the interests of your state. That's how the system was set up, in the interests of the states, and the people who lived in them. But not for the broad American public irrespective of where you are. There's a lot of complex history behind it. It's not that the system is rigged, there are reasons it works this way, it's just those reasons are long forgotten by most.

Anyhow, you get to participate in the federal election via your vote for how your state allocates it's electors, and of course your state wants as much influence as possible so rather than split the electors roughly in half for each side representing the vote, whoever wins gets ALL the electoral votes.

In practice, the winner of the popular vote is usually also the winner of the election, but very occasionally that isn't the case. It indeed may well be the case that your vote in practice really doesn't matter for various reasons. But it's not because as you suggest the peoples votes are just thrown away and take as simply advise by the electors, that's not the case. The votes and the election does matter.

 

[quiet roar]

A Letter From G.O.P. National Security Officials Opposing Donald Trump

this isn't democrats, or biased liberal media, these are republican national security officials, some of whom served under gwb.

(my emphasis)

polling seems to suggest that undecided voters are seeing this to be true and are leaning away from voting for trump.

alasdair

Considering the work of the above, isn't it a positive for Trump?

 

[Droppersneck]

Bwhahaahaha looks like Trump was right, completely rigged. I see this being hard for MSM propaganda to ignore. Liberals call planting people in trumps rallies to start conflict 'birddogging'. Hopefully these people go to jail for a long time!

 

[JessFR]

That's dirty politics, not the same thing as being rigged. Also not illegal unless I'm very much mistaken.

Not that any of that makes it ok. And I haven't listened to the YouTube clip yet so I'm just going off what you said about it.

 

[kong]

That is the funniest bunch of edits O'Keefe has thrown together in a while. The only way historically O'Keefe has even been able to manufacture outrage is by deceptive editing.

Love to see the actual footage.

 

[herbavore]

Let's all remember that Trump called the Emmys "rigged" when The Apprentice didn't win.8)

I do believe that the current systems of both political parties are rigged (we get handed the candidates they want to hand us; except Trump who tapped into a situation of the Republicans' own making and came back to bite them in the ass!).

I do not believe that the outcome of our votes (actual voting machines, actual count) are rigged.

As far as Pence goes, I hope that his association tars him. He is a horrible man IMO.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That is the funniest bunch of edits O'Keefe has thrown together in a while. The only way historically O'Keefe has even been able to manufacture outrage is by deceptive editing.

Love to see the actual footage.

Using that retarded logic, I guess the trump pussy tape was deceptively edited as well.

 

[kong]

Using that retarded logic, I guess the trump pussy tape was deceptively edited as well.

Which is why the Trump pussy tape is full of dark rooms and swinging lightbulbs with a convicted felon narrating incoherent garbage.

In all seriousness you can watch the Trump tape unedited from start to finish. It didn't need to be chopped up into one to two sentence cuts and rearranged to have impact like every single thing O'Keefe has ever come up with.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Which is why the Trump pussy tape is full of dark rooms and swinging lightbulbs with a convicted felon narrating incoherent garbage.

In all seriousness you can watch the Trump tape unedited from start to finish. It didn't need to be chopped up into one to two sentence cuts and rearranged to have impact like every single thing O'Keefe has ever come up with.

Those acorn videos are irrelevant at this point. The guys in these new videos aren't even denying the things they said. Instead they're getting fired and resigning lel. Umad

 

[Jabberwocky]

Bwhahaahaha looks like Trump was right, completely rigged. I see this being hard for MSM propaganda to ignore. Liberals call planting people in trumps rallies to start conflict 'birddogging'. Hopefully these people go to jail for a long time!

Original video has over 3 million views haha, check out this new doozie

 

[SKL]

That is the funniest bunch of edits O'Keefe has thrown together in a while. The only way historically O'Keefe has even been able to manufacture outrage is by deceptive editing.

Love to see the actual footage.

obviously he took a cute young college grad with a glasses cam or whatever and had all these guys trying to impress her, basically, after she'd infiltrated the campaign for however long, which is fucking hilarious but I doubt any of the content is going to shock anyone who knows anything about how American politics is run. also the Lincoln quote at the end sounds highly spurious (as if perhaps the chief executive who overstepped constitutional boundaries more than any other before or since would be a good model to speak of freedom; but oh yes, "the party of Lincoln" and all that.) more of why democracy is a sham but oh well. at least this video, and the other, are pretty damn amusing

You sound like a Nazi yearning for a strong, masculine figure to take over your country and protect it from Jews.

you sound like you just finished reading The Authoritarian Personality or whatever else left wing psychoanalysis of fascism or some Hannah Arendt cliffs notes. Substantive discussion or no; is there or is there not disproportionate cultural, economical, and political influence by certain groups of people, by a certain group of people, and is this OK, while I assume you think that it's not OK that Whites hold more influence than Blacks. probably believe in open borders for the US and a Jewish state for Israel, too. I find peoples openmindedness to a contrarian stance on issues of Jewish influence (among a few others; most recently, the effective ontology of transgenderism and the mutability of gender) to be a really useful barometer on whether or not I find their politics totally reprehensible, of course, abortion, religious freedom, 2nd amendment too.

part of this is why I could never be a mainstream Republican (and I don't vote or really believe in it)

Trump is strong on none of these except the National Question; on everything else he's lukewarm to lesser or two weasels.