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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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^ Fair enough. I suppose it's easy enough to look at post-war Kosovo and see Albright, Clark and others privatizing and profiting and question the intentions of some of the participants and their eagerness to go to war, and the influence they had over others at the time. Especially when seen within the context of the for-profit conflicts my generation grew up with. I'll assume that if any of this was going on, Sanders voted from a humanitarian/obligation-to-allies perspective and nothing more. That he saw no other motives (and just kept his mouth shut).
 
Hopefully 200. He needs to take all this momentum, hammer Hillary on a few of the big lies she's told in the past 2 weeks, and bring NY on home. I'm just concerned it'll be a setup. It's being hosted by a Clinton donor, moderated by a Clinton supporter, and they're not letting the public in/choosing their own audience.
 
Genocide and ethnic cleansing had been occurring on an embarrassingly large scale. And, being in a part of eastern Europe that is practically central Europe, it was becoming too visible (unlike Rwanda for example) for the world's powers not to act.

Ten years later Kofi Annan was still apologizing for the UN's impartiality that led to (though was not primarily responsible for - that was down to the warring factions) the biggest mass murder on European soil since WW2.

Don't shoot the messenger. You simply said you wanted the blanks filled in. The blanks were largely between civilians ribs, behind concentration camp wire.

Nice post.

It's true, we weren't just witnessing genocide and ethnic cleansing via the bullet, but mass rape camps were rampant. Granted, I personally wouldn't have voted to use force, I can see the urgency. It's an awful situation, yes, I would want to hep, yes, but my main focus would be to help people escape the situation, rather than launching hundreds (thousands?) of cruise missiles into the region.
 
Thay debate was FIRE. I lost count how many times Hillary either got laughed at by the crowd or booed. But of course the post show on CNN stayed that she won.

Fun fact: According to Google Trends' twitter account, Bernie Sanders was the most searched candidate in every single state in the country during the debate.
 
I am resigning from my position as god emperor of this thread.

This election has me fired up IRL where I've been debating mofuckers, and in this thread my last post was some narcissistic bullshit. I value blue light very much no point in becoming hated with this divisive political shit. I'd gladly have a beer with any of you.

There will not be another God emperor after me I guess one of you can be President or something
 
Just a little preface, I'm writing this review of the debate as I watch it. It's order will follow the debate chronologically.

Goddamn Clinton is smug. Every valid point Sanders made during this debate, she laughed in his face as if she were royalty. I was blown the fuck away when she said that she has been the leader of the "fight for 15" movement. This is an absurdity, go to any "fight for 15" rally and count the Clinton stickers and signs. What a ridiculous statement. The part where was called her out on her false claim that (x) number of guns involved in violence came from Vermont was priceless, how quickly she changed the subject to politicize Sandy Hook.

The whole gun manufacturer/retailer liability nonsense is getting very tiresome. You sue a manufacturer when the product malfunctions. You don't sue Toyota when a mad man runs over 25 people, you sue Toyota when it's brake system fails and runs over 25 people.. However, I think Sanders makes a valid point that if a gun dealer knowingly sells weapons and ammunition to people who are using them for nefarious reasons, that shop should be held liable.

I thought it was a great moment during the debate when Clinton made her statements about clean energy, with Sanders' retort being the fact that 47 fossil fuel lobbyists placed their bets on Clinton. Why would they do such a thing? Also, the statement from Bernie about Clinton's continued support for fracking was just beautiful. "Natural gas is a bridge" she says. Tell that to farmers in North Dakota and Iowa who have had their lands decimated by the impact of fracking. This topic on climate change was most certainly a Sanders landslide. Sanders - "The short term profits of the fossil fuel industry is not more important than the future of the planet." How do you argue against this? Ad hominems, and that was exactly how she responded. Also, I get the feeling that Clinton has been using President Obama as a crutch all throughout the debate. This speaks volumes. If you want to continue the Obama administration, Clinton seems to be the correct choice.

I literally laughed out loud as Clinton layed out her plan to reform the payroll income tax in order to preserve social security, with Sanders' retort being that she essentially laid out HIS plan to reform social security. It's also telling that Clinton gave a very ambiguous answer to Wolf's question as to whether or not she would lift the payroll tax to strengthen the stability of SS. Wolf's questions was literally "Yes, or no, would you lift the payroll tax", Clinton failed to deliver that yes or no. In fact it was Sanders who prodded her into giving a slightly less ambiguous answer to the question.

I think it's an excellent point that Sanders makes regarding whether or not he is a Democrat. He's spent his political career as an independent, and the Democratic party needs not only registered Democrats on board, but millions of independents as well. Very impressive answer to this question, I thought.

Clinton's statements around 9/11 are pure opportunism, as far as I can see. She claimed to put first responders front and center, yet many of them are not here today unnecessarily. Jon Stewart recently made an appearance on the daily show to highlight this. He showed a clip from years earlier, of a round table of several first responders, who were vastly under cared for under Clintons tenure as senator, and during this most recent appearance remained one man. The rest were dead. Gone, unnecessarily. There have been suits and complaints against the city of New York during Clinton's time as senator, respoders pleading for assistance. Stewart's appearance was a stark reminder of New York priorities and a clear example of Clinton's commitment to them. Don't politicize 9/11, Secretary Clinton, especially if you don't have the record to back up your claims.

Summery: I think it was a fair debate on CNN's part. Both candidates were absolutely hammered on their issues and missteps. I must say that Clinton dodged many of the more controversial questions while falling back on "hey, I know the president!". The crowd, despite being the state that Clinton represented for years, was clearly on the side of Sanders. Hilary was booed so many times that I lost count. Chants of "Bernie! Bernie!" echoed the venue as Clinton stood there looking sullen. As for their closing arguments, Clinton might have well received a golf clap compared to the roaring applause for Sanders. I wish Bernie had pushed the trade agreement issues a little harder. He certainly could have. He could have brought up the Panama Papers, he didn't.

All in all, I have to give this one to Sanders. Clinton got crushed tonight. From my perspective, let's just hope that this translates into a landslide victory for Sanders, allowing him to continue his long winning streak. As he said, he was clocked in the deep south, but we're not in the south anymore.
 
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The media damage control started immediately after the debate and will continue through tuesday. They will make it seem like it was a wash, even though Hitlery got her ass handed to her.
 
Passed out after the first break, but Bernie smoked her and it was downright embarassing for hil.

Bardoo, he didn't mention the papers but did mention her judgement and record on trade deals iirc.
 
I seriously hate the fact that Sanders is a far better candidate than Clinton, but the MSM keeps reporting that she is trouncing him. It reminds me of a political cartoon I saw.

It is a baseball announcer saying

Hillary pitches to sanders and he hits it out of the park. Due to the rules regarding the DNC that means hillary is in the lead.

It is so true. I feel people are swaying more towards sanders, but establishment democrats are going to support hillary because of how money from special interests will be put on the backburner if sanders is elected. It is just sad that the one candidate that actually has plans to change this country for the better cannot get the press that clinton can. Many people still get their news from CNN, Fox News (ugh..:(), MSNBC, etc etc. These people are grossly misinformed and I feel like even if sanders wins the popular vote the DNC will still force Clinton through.
 
Absolutely. At this point it's going to be pretty much impossible for either candidate to get enough delegates to win before the convention. That means it's going to be up to the Superdelegates to decide.

Despite all the support Hillary got early from them, nothing is more important to the party than besting the Republicans. Not sneaky alliances, campaign contributions, nothing. They threw their weight behind Hillary early to try to force a Clinton win but it didn't work. Now they will get behind whoever is more likely to win the general election. Not only do the polls show Bernie is a stronger candidate for that, but there are also too many Democrats and Independents that are "Bernie or Bust" that will refuse to vote for Hillary in the general. And she did that to herself by being such a snake. Daily I see people posting on the dozen+ Bernie groups I'm in starting their post with something like "I wasn't #BernieOrBust before, but after Hillary said X today, now I am."

And Bernie's campaign knows it. Last night during the debate was the first time he ever said "I think we will win this election." That's a pretty bold statement to make when you're behind in the delegate count, but I think he's right.
 
I seriously hate the fact that Sanders is a far better candidate than Clinton, but the MSM keeps reporting that she is trouncing him. It reminds me of a political cartoon I saw.

It is a baseball announcer saying

Hillary pitches to sanders and he hits it out of the park. Due to the rules regarding the DNC that means hillary is in the lead.

Have you seen the Wolf Blitzer "How will Sanders recover from this devastating victory?" memes?

Pretty much sums up the situation
 
i'm interested to read this. don't you think that the free-market has totally and utterly failed here? so why? because it's not been "left mostly to itself"?

when i lived in the u.k. i paid about the same amount of tax (proportionally) i pay here. when i needed a filling or had to see a doctor, i did just that - walked in, got help, walked out without (directly) paying a penny. people get care and it just works.

i didn't feel that my freedom was somehow threatened because the country i lived in thought that taking care of the health of the population was, you know, a good thing :)

alasdair

I think you put my arguments for a universal healthcare system perfectly.

When the patients don't think that going to get medical care will hurt them they seek it out when they need it, and we help them. When people think they will be hurt by the system then they don't go. Something is wrong, and they shrug, "eh, it is just my knee". Well maybe this person used to go jogging every second day. That is why the knee started hurting, but also why the person stayed young. Knee patient comes in, we give new soles and a prescription for physical therapy/education. Knee patient goes out and resumes jogging. Knee patient stays young.

This is just a really super small example of how forcing people to pay to stay alive is wrong. The amount of control this provides over individuals is immense. A good doctor would never use the lives of his patients as leverage to seize assets. There are enough bad doctors out there.
 
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