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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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LiquidMethod said:
-Chris Ernesto
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Nice Article. Refreshing. It's good to look at things from different angles.


I liked this part,


When asking a Progressive why Obama hasn’t shut down Guantanamo Bay as promised, they spout something like, “one person can’t change everything.” If that’s the case, then why should anyone care who gets elected president?
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It's funny because when Bush was in office they had no problem putting all the blame on 'one person', matter of fact even still to this day, they blame Bush for Obama's shortcomings.

If Obama couldn't even get Guantanamo closed in 2 plus terms how the hell is the next president going to solve something major like income inequality? It's just not gonna happen in my lifetime.
 
The problem with closing Guantanamo is what to do with the prisoners. The idea of arbitrary and or limitless detention makes me very uneasy, as I'm sure it does most of you. In my teenage years it was very easy to occupy the "just close it" position but I do have, if not sympathy then understanding. These are essentially PoWs, protocol with PoWs is to keep the detaine duntil the war is over but with a war like this one that itself is so ill defined these are much longer term prisoners than one would expect. So there's two chouices; the first is to process them as criminals, but if they're criminals then how do you justify removing them from their nation states and imprisoning them militarily? The other choice is to not take any PoWs, so either let them go or kill them. Neither of these are attractive prospects and with the region in the state it is in one could argue that sending these people back is dangerous for them, and potentially for us.

So while Guantanamo is not what many of us would like it's not as simple as just closing it down.
 
A lot of the criticism against Bernie seems to be that he is not progressive enough (not anti-war enough, not pro-muslim enough, not pro-climate protection enough), yet he is clearly far more progressive on these issues than Hillary, and exponentially more progressive than any Republican. So of the field that has any shot in Hell at getting elected, he's the only choice for a progressive. If you are left of Bernie (as I am), it is still utter stupidity not to support him and try to get him elected. This is not a time to throw your vote away on a third party candidate. I did that once and Bush beat Gore and started the Iraq War. I figured they were both just part of the corrupt political machine, and there was no real difference between Democrats and Republicans, but it turns out that I was wrong.

Now, if Bernie loses the Democratic nomination, i might repeat that mistake and vote third party over Hillary. It seems like the Republicans went super-crazy right-wing nutso, and Hillary is basically what a "normal" Republican should be like. The choice is dumb and dumberer, and I don't really want to make that choice, but I may have no choice.

Funny, all those crazy Trump supporters are at least right about one thing: The political system is broken and corrupt and we cannot trust any of the "business as usual" candidates to fix it, they just say what we want to hear and then do the same old thing when elected. The last thing we need is the same kind of candidate that we've been electing -- from either party -- for the last 40 years. It's time to just say NO. Hell, I think it would be better to just randomly choose any American -- a butcher, a plumber, whatever -- over any of those establishment politicians. A lot of those who support Trump agree he's saying crazy stuff and is totally awful presidential material, but STILL better than putting any of the establishment guys in power. And on that one point, they are absolutely right.

I find it a real head-scratcher that more Democrats have not woken up to the fucking urgency of NOT electing any establishment candidate any more. Otherwise true change and reform is utterly hopeless. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The Republicans backing Trump are, to my mind, the only non-insane Republicans. The Democrats backing Bernie are the only non-insane Democrats. Though Bernie is a career politician, he is clearly outside the mainstream establishment as a (historically) third-party candidate and self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist.

I am mystified that we all can see that the war in Iraq was a huge mistake, maybe the biggest political mistake of our nation in the last 30 years, and the guy who said that at the time and voted against it is having trouble beating out a woman who voted for that war for the Democratic nomination. What the fuck happened to accountability? It's insanity to give Hillary or any other politician a pass when their track-record shows they FAILED the ultimate real-world tests of character and foresight. Why are we even debating it?

Hell, do you realize every Republican candidate has said the war in iraq was a mistake?! Here we have a chance to elect one of the very few people with the balls and foresight and character to buck the temporary winds of public sentiment (fanned by disinformation) and make the right call... He passed the biggest political IQ test of the last 20 years with an A plus, and people are suggesting he would not be as good a leader as Hillary? It's like we are electing a high school class president and they are going to elect the prom queen over the valedictorian, claiming she'll make better decision. It's crazy, crazy, crazy....

~psychoblast~

p.s. Feel the Bern!
 
Media wants Trump vs Clinton. Chucky Todd has been declaring Bernies candidacy dead ever since the day of the Nevada caucuses.

Also, why do black people like Hillary so much when Bernies policies would be way better for them? Is it the Jew thing?
 
mal3volent said:
Media wants Trump vs Clinton. Chucky Todd has been declaring Bernies candidacy dead ever since the day of the Nevada caucuses.

Also, why do black people like Hillary so much when Bernies policies would be way better for them? Is it the Jew thing?
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Because Hillary markets to them a lot more. Have you seen her latest campaign ad? It's basically a giant eulogy of all the black people that have been shot by police over the last 2-3 years, then she comes on screen and says, "vote for me". LOL

You think I'm exaggerating, but I shit you not, go watch it.
 
ColonelPanic said:
The problem with closing Guantanamo is what to do with the prisoners. The idea of arbitrary and or limitless detention makes me very uneasy, as I'm sure it does most of you. In my teenage years it was very easy to occupy the "just close it" position but I do have, if not sympathy then understanding. These are essentially PoWs, protocol with PoWs is to keep the detaine duntil the war is over but with a war like this one that itself is so ill defined these are much longer term prisoners than one would expect. So there's two chouices; the first is to process them as criminals, but if they're criminals then how do you justify removing them from their nation states and imprisoning them militarily? The other choice is to not take any PoWs, so either let them go or kill them. Neither of these are attractive prospects and with the region in the state it is in one could argue that sending these people back is dangerous for them, and potentially for us.

So while Guantanamo is not what many of us would like it's not as simple as just closing it down.
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The politics are entirely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is Obama's promise to the American people. It's the principle.

Not to mention, Obama pretty much debunks every point you just made.

Here's the video...

 
I'm amazed at the (for want of a better word) segregated nature of political debate in the USA still.
I can't ever imagine people talking about "the asian vote" "the white vote" or any such ethnically homogenous categorisation here (or in any other Western, developed nation, but it may happen and i'm simply not aware of it).

Mainly because i don't think anyone here expects people of various ethnicities to have any homogenous voting habits or political opinions. It is far more focussed on class/income/region (ie rural/outer suburban/inner-city etc - as well as state considerations).

I wonder if people think these "black vote", "hispanic vote" (etc) comments generally reflection true voting patterns?

Do people really vote along ethnic lines; and if so - why??
 
What's even sadder is that black voters have been conned in to believing the Clinton propaganda. The Clintons are nobodies friends but their own, Hillary will be a disaster, but the first woman president aspect will no doubt eclipse other considerations and whatever she does it will be considered a triumph.
 
ArCi said:
If it comes down to Trump/Hilary.. Hilary has absolutely no chance
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what makes you say that?

i think there are a lot of republican voters who'll just not vote if trump is their 'option'.

i know polls are, well, just polls but in 10 recent polls (FOX, Ipsos/Reuters, Morning Consult, NBC/WSJ, Suffolk/USA Today, Quinnipiac, Ipsos/Reuters, Morning Consult, Quinnipiac, PPP) all but one have clinton ahead of trump by an average of 5.66 points (high 10, low 1).

in the lone poll (Suffolk/USA Today) in which trump leads, he leads by 1 point (and they polled likely voters - all other polls polled registered voters).

alasdair
 
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alasdairm said:
what makes you say that?

i think there are a lot of republican voters who'll just not vote if trump is their 'option'.

i know polls are, well, just polls but in 10 recent polls (FOX, Ipsos/Reuters, Morning Consult, NBC/WSJ, Suffolk/USA Today, Quinnipiac, Ipsos/Reuters, Morning Consult, Quinnipiac, PPP) all but one have clinton ahead of trump by an average of 5.66 points (high 10, low 1).

in the lone poll (Suffolk/USA Today) in which trump leads, he leads by 1 point (and they polled likely voters - all other polls polled registered voters).

alasdair
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Easy...nobody likes Hillary. She's a power hungry person who only cares about her image and meeting her own political goals. She'll say it's a triumph for women...but deep down she'll do that manical cackle and we'll all be fucked. She represents the establishment...and she's kind of a bitch.

She's delusional if she thinks people can't see right through her. She's a very hateable person on many levels and calling her a Democrat is a bit of a stretch. Her foreign policy leans right and were sick of wars and sick of the Clintons. She's like Jeb except on the other team. What is there to like?

Anyone but Hillary is the mantra and for good reason. Trump v Hillary...I ain't voting.
 
i just tuned into the debate and have been watching for about 10 minutes. it's as if only trump and cruz are involved.

trump's answer to everything seems to be "what we're doing now sucks. we're going to have something better" but when pressed for details he just starts insulting people...

alasdair
 
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GodandLove said:
The politics are entirely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is Obama's promise to the American people. It's the principle.

Not to mention, Obama pretty much debunks every point you just made.
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This is a pretty much no-brainer for the president, I wouldn't be surprised if he were drafting it's contents right now. He's faced dozens of petitions from congress to halt his plans on the prison closure. However, Article II of the constitution renders the legal power of congress diddly-squat. It gives the president the sole resposibility of where to place war detainees.

The only problem is, he's cut the Gitmo population in half (not the bad news), the bad news is that the pentagon are dragging their shinny high officer's boots in the ground about 53 soldiers destined from another country, ie - not American military tribunal.

As much as I'd hate the say it, as much as I hate it, those 53 released men won't live long. We took out an American citizen in (Yemen?) while he was giving a press conference from 7k miles away ffs. These 53 men will have a target on their back just to appease the American public.

ColonelPanic said:
So there's two chouices; the first is to process them as criminals, but if they're criminals then how do you justify removing them from their nation states and imprisoning them militarily?
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This one is half true. One choice is to remove them and place them in waiting for a military tribunal. As they are enemy combatants, (some or most of them), they should be treated as such and given a fair trial. You justify removing them from their nation states the same way you would justify a POW.

The other choice is to not take any PoWs, so either let them go or kill them. Neither of these are attractive prospects and with the region in the state it is in one could argue that sending these people back is dangerous for them, and potentially for us
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.

Yet, this has happened over and over and over (by us) anyway. As I addressed before, the US military is entirely more advanced than you'd imagine. We could gather Intel, recon, and execute finely tuned orders on the basis of tracking device in one of these POWs bodies.

So while Guantanamo is not what many of us would like it's not as simple as just closing it down.
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Yes it is. It's a detention center. Detention centers are opened an closed all the time.
 
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Older liberal boomers seem to like Hillary. And older liberal boombers vote.

Younger liberals seem to have a "meh" opinion of Hillary. She doesn't excite them. But younger liberals (like all youth) tend to suck at voter turnout.

I'm not sure what a Hillary/Trump race would look like. Some people despise Hillary. But a lot of those people won't vote Democratic anyways. Trump's problem is that his has no filter, and everyone is willing to give him plenty of rope, so there's a chance he'll say or do something so outrageous that he loses a lot of support.
 
ColonelPanic said:
What's even sadder is that black voters have been conned in to believing the Clinton propaganda.
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Seriously. Their support for the end of welfare and mass incarceration decimated black communities in a way that not even Nixon or Reagan had the stomach for. And Bill did it BECAUSE he was a Democrat, to prove he was "tough," and Hillary supported him the whole way, and continued supporting those policies as a Senator. Black people liked Bill people he was "one of them," but they've had a hard time realizing that he was just the biggest Uncle Tom that ever lived.

As a young college-educated person I'd vote for Hillary over Trump if they were my options, since Trump would just be "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis in real life. If Trump wins I know I'm leaving the country, if Hillary wins I just think the world is fucked at the same pace it's been fucked at.

It's just a sad state our country is in that Trump gets any support, in 20 years most of his supporters will be dead from liver disease, heart disease, etc anyway. Have you guys seen the mortality rates for uneducated middle aged white people these days? It's worse than being middle aged black or hispanic and uneducated, and they're killing themselves off so quickly. Trump is literally their only hope.
 
I'm fucking disgusted that 8-of-10 black voters voted for Clinton in South Carolina today. I've never been so disappointed in the African American community.

When it comes down to Trump vs. Hillary and Trump wins because so many Democrats refuse to participate in the election, we deserve all the fucked up shit that will come with a Trump presidency. Let's see how people feel about bullshit established politics when we have 4-8 years of an ultra conservative whitehouse, senate, and congress. And make no mistake, Bernie is the only one that would have had a chance to beat Trump. The Republican voter turnout for the caucuses and primaries has already been much higher than the Democrat turnout. This unevenness will get even worse when Hillary is chosen as the nominee.

I donated another $50 to Bernie's campaign today if for no other reason than to help him hang in there a little bit longer and spread his message.
 
I'm a Sanders supporter and I'll abstain from the general election rather than vote for Clinton. Like a lot of people.

A Trump presidency is all that anyone in this country deserves if it comes down to Trump and Clinton. When that happens, I'll be glad to help usher in hell in America and I'll revel in the pit of disgust Democrats created by not supporting a once-in-a-lifetime candidate like Sanders. Hell, I might even vote for Trump just so everyone can suffer the devastation they wrought.
 
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