LoveTractor
Greenlighter
TL/DR: With respect to MGM-15 and 7-OH, can we please discuss how to control the uniquely strong emotional pull / compulsion to use this particular sub-class of semi-synthetic opioids for which 24-mg of SL buprenorphine provides at best a trivial blockade of 60-mg of MGM-15? I know many will disagree that the compulsion is not strong, for many very experienced opioid users it is, let’s not debate an aspect that often devolves into a shaming exercise. I am not opposed to 12-step/AA/abstinence based recovery but they do not work for myself, please and thank you for not going there today. I need an opioid on board or I will get high on another.
I am looking to discuss, for the community’s benefit and mine as well, any solutions using medicated assisted recovery (MAT) with FDA approved or well known RC mu opioid antagonists, agonists and mixed mode opioids - not supplements, clonidine, BSO, benzos, etc. I have and use all of those to manage inter-dose withdrawal discomfort. I am interested in the SR-xxxxx compounds but since I have proven treatment resistant without complete "24/7 365” blockade of effects I am not sure the SR- compounds are sustainable. I cannot seem to get by without blockade. If I think I can get high I will try.
Based on CoAs and competing products I estimate I consume about 120 mg of MGM-15 every 24 hours when I am abusing it, which is more days than not lately.
I know that was long for a TL/DR, thank you for reading that much. I am very grateful for this community. The above is complete enough for proper replies, the following is background and detail, mostly.
The fuller story: Please, let's discuss how to reduce their potential harm, particularly with regards to buprenorphine’s inability to neither block their effects nor reduce cravings in any significant manner. I understand most responses will lack studies to support them and will skew heavily towards personal experiences, that’s fine, it’s most of what we have to share. PubMed articles imo are premature content, we can skip studies that have not been repeated. Not conjecture or dismissal, e.g. "just suck it up and quit”, I cannot do that, thank you.
I would post this to the recovery forum but I feel it best to start here and wish to help others who are 7-OH curious or current users who are in a similar spot, in time I will use the recovery sub-forum. I tried to keep this brief, but please for me this is an urgent topic not a debate. I am a decades long member of the BL community, I had to create a new user a few years ago but I’ve been on BL since ca. 2002.
I am a former IV black tar heroin abuser (early 2000s) then was on methadone for 5 years, followed by bupe starting in the 2010s. I continue to take bupe but not on some days I abuse kratom alkaloids, but I have taken bupe at least every 36 hours, my usual bupe dose is 3-mg intranasal (~6-mg SL eq.), as subutex generic (no naloxone). I have had no issues with PWD. I’ve used and abused most all the traditional compounds outside of the deliriant and dissociative classes. This is approximately my 313th rodeo, I am 60yrs old, a U.S. citizen and I live in a fairly liberal state. I have a good life, a stable life.
I am writing today in the hopes of maintaining my pre-kraton alkaloids lifestyle, as it was from several years until June of 2025. I am and apparently always will be an opioid addict. I am not opposed to 12-step/AA/abstinence based recovery but they do not work for myself. I can control alcohol, cannabis, psychedelics and I can avoid cocaine well enough I haven’t tried to access it and have denied it consistently for the past four years. I find MAT the best solution for myself, however bupe does not block MGM-15 or 7-OH to a degree sufficient to cease my use. I can easily avoid (semi-)synthetic analogs of everything I have tried except mitragynine. I do not use fentanyl or the post-heroin opioid options. I like to breathe.
The ease of access is a big problem
Is my only realistic long term option methadone? I will require it long term, I haven’t been without at least a partial agonist since 2000. I have several years of past experience with methadone from clinics but clinics in my area object to my prescribed benzo use which is non-negotiable or would take years to discontinue. I have tried up to 32-mg SL eq. of bupe and there is a blunting of effects but it is not enough.
The compulsion to use is in my experience is overwhelming. I have tried to stop using every week for three months. I had a grip on my use until about early March of this year, but even then was unhappy I felt a strong compulsion to use 7-OH. Everyone is unique, many people feel no pull after using 7-OH, even after abusing it. However, the anecdotal data is impossible to discount and I concur - for some people like myself these compounds are as difficult to discontinue long term as others experience with alcohol, heroin or cocaine. A pattern of controlled use is not desired, I don not enjoy them enough.
If black tar heroin reappeared I would be thrilled but also able to control use b/c bupe fully blocks it for me, this was true from 2008 to 2016 when BTH (essentially) disappeared from my region. The pull of kratom alkaloids that override bupe for me is insane. It is the compulsion and the acute abstinence syndrome I experience - extreme lethargy, anhedonia, etc. that get me. These are, ime symptoms more associated with semi-synthetic thebaine based opioid PAW that get me. With MGM-15 it is often within 12 to 36 hours of my last dose I feel compelled to get more (as soon as I feel energy enough to leave the house). I will not order it online, I can resist that but the local smoke shops I cannot avoid. I can well afford my habit, it’s not money, it’s my lifestyle I desire to reclaim.
These compounds are available 24/7 within a few miles of where I reside. I live alone and have nobody to hold me to account and I do not want a sponsor as my main support, thank you for understanding I need to fully exhaust the MAT route before I try abstinence based treatment again. Drug testing / UAs would be fine with me, I can be accountable to a system but not a person or higher being with no formal training in MAT. I don't want to debate this until MAT is exhausted, as an adjunct - assume I am already there.
I am one of the people who cannot reasonably control usage of these two compounds, for myself the emotional pull - the compulsion to use them is on par with my 2022 three month run with freebase and my more distant, two year use (early 2000s) of IV cocaine. I know many people will read that sentence as hyperbolic and push back hard claiming there is no way 7-OH can pull one in as hard as freebase cocaine. I get that sentiment. I felt that way a year ago. Let’s just sort that out now - for at least one person with vast experience with cocaine, heroin and kratom alkaloids the pull of the latter is strong enough to compromise my lifestyle to a significant degree.
The main point I’d like this community to attempt to address and to refine as time elapses, is how to maintain abstinence in the face of the inefficacy of buprenorphine to block these compounds to any significant degree.
Is methadone the only medicine based therapy that would give me both craving control and blockade of the effects? Would naltrexone work as well? Methadone is available to me but at a high social and economic cost. I am nearing the point of paying those costs, but I take a prescribed benzo and would be denied take home doses by the clinics in my area.
A very grateful and sincere as could be thank you to all who care enough to want to assist, even if you have nothing to add, thank you being aware of these issues, at least for a few users who have posted here.
I am looking to discuss, for the community’s benefit and mine as well, any solutions using medicated assisted recovery (MAT) with FDA approved or well known RC mu opioid antagonists, agonists and mixed mode opioids - not supplements, clonidine, BSO, benzos, etc. I have and use all of those to manage inter-dose withdrawal discomfort. I am interested in the SR-xxxxx compounds but since I have proven treatment resistant without complete "24/7 365” blockade of effects I am not sure the SR- compounds are sustainable. I cannot seem to get by without blockade. If I think I can get high I will try.
Based on CoAs and competing products I estimate I consume about 120 mg of MGM-15 every 24 hours when I am abusing it, which is more days than not lately.
I know that was long for a TL/DR, thank you for reading that much. I am very grateful for this community. The above is complete enough for proper replies, the following is background and detail, mostly.
The fuller story: Please, let's discuss how to reduce their potential harm, particularly with regards to buprenorphine’s inability to neither block their effects nor reduce cravings in any significant manner. I understand most responses will lack studies to support them and will skew heavily towards personal experiences, that’s fine, it’s most of what we have to share. PubMed articles imo are premature content, we can skip studies that have not been repeated. Not conjecture or dismissal, e.g. "just suck it up and quit”, I cannot do that, thank you.
I would post this to the recovery forum but I feel it best to start here and wish to help others who are 7-OH curious or current users who are in a similar spot, in time I will use the recovery sub-forum. I tried to keep this brief, but please for me this is an urgent topic not a debate. I am a decades long member of the BL community, I had to create a new user a few years ago but I’ve been on BL since ca. 2002.
I am a former IV black tar heroin abuser (early 2000s) then was on methadone for 5 years, followed by bupe starting in the 2010s. I continue to take bupe but not on some days I abuse kratom alkaloids, but I have taken bupe at least every 36 hours, my usual bupe dose is 3-mg intranasal (~6-mg SL eq.), as subutex generic (no naloxone). I have had no issues with PWD. I’ve used and abused most all the traditional compounds outside of the deliriant and dissociative classes. This is approximately my 313th rodeo, I am 60yrs old, a U.S. citizen and I live in a fairly liberal state. I have a good life, a stable life.
I am writing today in the hopes of maintaining my pre-kraton alkaloids lifestyle, as it was from several years until June of 2025. I am and apparently always will be an opioid addict. I am not opposed to 12-step/AA/abstinence based recovery but they do not work for myself. I can control alcohol, cannabis, psychedelics and I can avoid cocaine well enough I haven’t tried to access it and have denied it consistently for the past four years. I find MAT the best solution for myself, however bupe does not block MGM-15 or 7-OH to a degree sufficient to cease my use. I can easily avoid (semi-)synthetic analogs of everything I have tried except mitragynine. I do not use fentanyl or the post-heroin opioid options. I like to breathe.
The ease of access is a big problem
Is my only realistic long term option methadone? I will require it long term, I haven’t been without at least a partial agonist since 2000. I have several years of past experience with methadone from clinics but clinics in my area object to my prescribed benzo use which is non-negotiable or would take years to discontinue. I have tried up to 32-mg SL eq. of bupe and there is a blunting of effects but it is not enough.
The compulsion to use is in my experience is overwhelming. I have tried to stop using every week for three months. I had a grip on my use until about early March of this year, but even then was unhappy I felt a strong compulsion to use 7-OH. Everyone is unique, many people feel no pull after using 7-OH, even after abusing it. However, the anecdotal data is impossible to discount and I concur - for some people like myself these compounds are as difficult to discontinue long term as others experience with alcohol, heroin or cocaine. A pattern of controlled use is not desired, I don not enjoy them enough.
If black tar heroin reappeared I would be thrilled but also able to control use b/c bupe fully blocks it for me, this was true from 2008 to 2016 when BTH (essentially) disappeared from my region. The pull of kratom alkaloids that override bupe for me is insane. It is the compulsion and the acute abstinence syndrome I experience - extreme lethargy, anhedonia, etc. that get me. These are, ime symptoms more associated with semi-synthetic thebaine based opioid PAW that get me. With MGM-15 it is often within 12 to 36 hours of my last dose I feel compelled to get more (as soon as I feel energy enough to leave the house). I will not order it online, I can resist that but the local smoke shops I cannot avoid. I can well afford my habit, it’s not money, it’s my lifestyle I desire to reclaim.
These compounds are available 24/7 within a few miles of where I reside. I live alone and have nobody to hold me to account and I do not want a sponsor as my main support, thank you for understanding I need to fully exhaust the MAT route before I try abstinence based treatment again. Drug testing / UAs would be fine with me, I can be accountable to a system but not a person or higher being with no formal training in MAT. I don't want to debate this until MAT is exhausted, as an adjunct - assume I am already there.
I am one of the people who cannot reasonably control usage of these two compounds, for myself the emotional pull - the compulsion to use them is on par with my 2022 three month run with freebase and my more distant, two year use (early 2000s) of IV cocaine. I know many people will read that sentence as hyperbolic and push back hard claiming there is no way 7-OH can pull one in as hard as freebase cocaine. I get that sentiment. I felt that way a year ago. Let’s just sort that out now - for at least one person with vast experience with cocaine, heroin and kratom alkaloids the pull of the latter is strong enough to compromise my lifestyle to a significant degree.
The main point I’d like this community to attempt to address and to refine as time elapses, is how to maintain abstinence in the face of the inefficacy of buprenorphine to block these compounds to any significant degree.
Is methadone the only medicine based therapy that would give me both craving control and blockade of the effects? Would naltrexone work as well? Methadone is available to me but at a high social and economic cost. I am nearing the point of paying those costs, but I take a prescribed benzo and would be denied take home doses by the clinics in my area.
A very grateful and sincere as could be thank you to all who care enough to want to assist, even if you have nothing to add, thank you being aware of these issues, at least for a few users who have posted here.
