🌟🌟 Social 🌟🌟 PD Social Thread 2022-2026 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[xdrc]

It would be interesting if you could point to anything beyond 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenylacetaldehyde, as ingesting that one is not a particularly bright idea.

 

[Allylbenzene]

It would be interesting if you could point to anything beyond 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenylacetaldehyde, as ingesting that one is not a particularly bright idea.

The only documented (ie known) in-vivo amination-type rxn involving aldehydes & amines is the Pictet-Spengler which produces tetrahydroisoquinolines (THIQ). THIQs are also present in mescaline cacti, but I (well, those whom took part in this 2010 discussion) suspect there is another pathway besides Pictet-Spengler (hence why I specified 'known'). This other pathway involves endogenous secondary amines specifically dimethylamine, 1-piperideine and 1-pyrroline. On that topic, note my earlier statement:

Previous discussion on this exact question ascertained that it's NOT some sort of conventional reductive amination with endogenous amines like dimethylamine since dimethyl-mescaline isn't active

 

[xdrc]

That reminds me that the b-carboline Pictet Spengler product of 5-chlorotryptamine and 2,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde is a potent 5-HT2A agonist. A vendor has recently started selling the 5-methoxytryptamine analogue of that, and I do know of an independent clandestine chemist that recently prepared that compound too but I'm yet to hear about bioassay. Maybe I should stop slacking and bioassay the plain tryptamine analogue, as well as investigate if more phenethylamine-y b-carboline products (i.e. with 4-methyl, 4-iodo) would yield potent agonists too. I doubt the Pictet Spengler product between mescaline and 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenacetaldehyde would go in a similar direction, but it's fun to think about.

Discovery of Highly Potent Serotonin 5-HT2 Receptor Agonists Inspired by Heteroyohimbine Natural Products - PMC

The serotonin 5-HT2 receptors are important pharmaceutical targets involved in signaling pathways underlying various neurological, psychiatric, and cardiac functions and dysfunctions. As such, numerous ligands for the investigation of these ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Allylbenzene]

I doubt the Pictet Spengler product between mescaline and 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenacetaldehyde would go in a similar direction, but it's fun to think about.

I think the 3,4,5-TMeO pattern is a special case regarding the enzymatic handling.

The 3,4,5 motif reminds me of triiodothyronine...did you ever consider this context for mescaline SAR and subsequent particular way it gets handled by enzymes?(!)

 

[Didgital]

That reminds me that the b-carboline Pictet Spengler product of 5-chlorotryptamine and 2,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde is a potent 5-HT2A agonist. A vendor has recently started selling the 5-methoxytryptamine analogue of that, and I do know of an independent clandestine chemist that recently prepared that compound too but I'm yet to hear about bioassay. Maybe I should stop slacking and bioassay the plain tryptamine analogue, as well as investigate if more phenethylamine-y b-carboline products (i.e. with 4-methyl, 4-iodo) would yield potent agonists too. I doubt the Pictet Spengler product between mescaline and 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenacetaldehyde would go in a similar direction, but it's fun to think about.

Discovery of Highly Potent Serotonin 5-HT2 Receptor Agonists Inspired by Heteroyohimbine Natural Products - PMC

The serotonin 5-HT2 receptors are important pharmaceutical targets involved in signaling pathways underlying various neurological, psychiatric, and cardiac functions and dysfunctions. As such, numerous ligands for the investigation of these ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the pictet-spengler product of mescaline is anhalinine correct? I don't understand what you mean pictet spengler condensation of a PEA and a tryptamine tho...

 

[Allylbenzene]

USo the pictet-spengler product of mescaline is anhalinine correct?

Mescaline + formaldehyde = anhalinine

I don't understand what you mean pictet spengler condensation of a PEA and a tryptamine tho...

Tryptamine + formaldehyde = ß-carboline
Tryptamine + ×-benzaldehyde = see paper

 

[xdrc]

Minor corrections:
Mescaline + formaldehyde = anhalinine
Tryptamine + formaldehyde = tryptoline
Tryptamine + acetaldehyde = 1-methyltryptoline

...and so forth.

Especially the tryptolines are extremely easy to be prepared. 1-(2,4,5-trimethoxyphenyl)-6-chlorotryptoline looks like an amalgation of TMA-2 (or its 1C derivative) and 5-chlorotryptamine, almost like tying together the tryptamine and phenethylamine world.

I was speculating about the THIQ stemming from the Pictet Spengler of mescaline with its aldehyde metabolite. I doubt it would do something interesting on 5-HT2A but who knows which kind of action it would have. It could conceivably form in the body by ingestion of mescaline, but probably only in tiny tiny amounts.

 

[iom]

I'm curious how potent you would rate it in the context that up to 81% is excreted unchanged? Or are you perhaps assuming that some/all of this excreted % first activates receptors then gets excreted [unchanged] ). I thought you said MAOB was the enzyme of interest here.

Are you serious? Plenty of active drugs are excreted almost entirely unchanged. This has little to do with whether something is active or not. Likewise, the potency of mescaline itself implies little about the likelihood that active metabolites are responsible for the effect. If you think mescaline isn't the primary active just because it's weak, well what about DOB? DOB is still "weak" compared to LSD or many NBOX or serotonin. This proves nothing.

I've often wondered whether mescaline has an active metabolite in addition to its own activity. Out of all the PEAs I've tried, mescaline has by far the strangest come-up. It almost feels biphasic, as if I had taken two drugs with one having a delayed onset. When I take mescaline dissolved in water on an empty stomach, I usually notice the first effects within 15-20 minutes. The experience then gradually builds over the next 2–3 hours until it seems to plateau. I've been fooled by this more than once, because around the 4-hour mark there's always another distinct surge in intensity that catapults me into its beautiful peak. Then again it could also just be slow absorption, prolonged distribution and many other things. Other drugs feel biphasic too now that I think about it. Many of the DOx and 4C-x, also LSD, but in the case of LSD D. Nichols did show that there is an active metabolite responsible for some of its jangly effects when the peak wears off.

Oh yeah. Mescaline always takes 4 hours to fully blossom for me, and last time I had it, I actually didn't peak in terms of visual intensity until after 6 hours. Indeed, I thought I was stable at T+4hr and went on a hike, and when we got back at T+6hr, the visuals were way way more intense, such that I was reaching out to lean against walls and shit because I couldn't tell which way was up and down.

My own description of the phases of mescaline is roughly like:
T+1hr: GI effects peak;
T+2hr: peripheral/body effects peak;
T+3hr: mental introspective effects peak;
T+4-6hr: trip fully develops with peak visuals, body high, etc.;
T+8-9hr: reconstitution
T+12-24hr (depending on dose): return to (mostly) baseline

When I take other phenethylamines, I notice a fairly similar multi-phase development, except the time courses are stretched or condensed. Let me give examples of approximate timing for full development / peaking: 2C-B: 1.5-2hr; 2C-I: 2-2.5hr; 2C-D: 1.5-2hr; 2C-E: 3 hr; 2C-T-2: 3hr; 2C-P: 5-6hr. Note I think 2C-P takes even longer to fully develop than mescaline.

In general I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of pharmacokinetics in influencing the subjective qualitative effects of a substance. It's not just that different drugs will tend to be distributed within parts of the body brain differently at different time points, but also that receptors may respond differently depending on how rapidly the concentration of agonist changes. Serotonin is a signaling molecule, and the timing of signaling can often convey meaningful if not crucial information. This is an area in serious need of more research though.

Lastly I'll say that once I identified the multi-phase aspects of phenethylamines, I started to notice that they are still there for tryptamines, it's just the phases peaks are crammed together and the phases essentially overlap. So with psilocybin for example, one might have GI effects peak at T+0:45, peripheral effects peak at T+1:00, introspection peak at T+1:15, and full development at T+1:30. The phases are staggered but mostly overlap whereas with mescaline and other things that take a long time to develop, the time separation makes the phases more discrete.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I was speculating about the THIQ stemming from the Pictet Spengler of mescaline with its aldehyde metabolite. I doubt it would do something interesting on 5-HT2A but who knows which kind of action it would have. It could conceivably form in the body by ingestion of mescaline, but probably only in tiny tiny amounts.

Maybe in-vivo Pictet-Spengler includes mescaline-aldehyde and other endogenous amines eg DA, HT, PEA etc.

Minor corrections:

Thanks haha.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Likewise, the potency of mescaline itself implies little about the likelihood that active metabolites are responsible for the effect.

Circumstantial data points. Context matters.
Eg an organic chemist who knows nothing about the nuanced dynamics of the endocrine & metabolic systems lacks sufficient context to appropriately understand the psychoactive molecules they work with.

If you think mescaline isn't the primary active

Yes, it's imo a prodrug that seems to have weak activity at HT receptors (and others eg adrenergic, DA).

well what about DOB? DOB is still "weak" compared to LSD or many NBOX or serotonin.

DOB is the "primary" active drug which may or may not have active metabolites. DOB has well-known "potency" at HT receptors.

Ligands which show high affinity-binding at the 5-HT2 receptor family but are devoid of subtype selectivity include ... 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine (DOB)
...
Alexander Shulgin discovered that some of these substances are active at doses well below 10 mg [e.g., DOB (2): 1–3 mg... (source)

Rhetorically; if you can make mescaline active at 10mg I'd assume that you know more than me about how mescaline works!!!

 

[iom]

Circumstantial data points. Context matters.
Eg an organic chemist who knows nothing about the nuanced dynamics of the endocrine & metabolic systems lacks sufficient context to appropriately understand the psychoactive molecules they work with.

This has nothing to do with my claim that the low potency of mescaline does not imply that it is an inactive pro-drug. And who are you alluding to about being an "organic chemist who knows nothing about the nuance dynamics of endocrine & metabolic system"? Me? @xdrc? Alexander Shulgin? It hardly matters because you are almost certainly wrong in this allusion.

DOB is the "primary" active drug which may or may not have active metabolites. DOB has well-known "potency" at HT receptors.

Mescaline has well known "potency" at HT receptors. The only difference is scale. And I already pointed out that DOB is still "weak" compared to many other things. It is entirely plausible that DOB has an active micro-metabolite. IIRC in PIHKAL, Shulgin himself speculates on this, partly on the basis of radio-labeled imaging. However, such a micro-metabolite has yet to be discovered and reported on, so no one really has any business going around telling everyone that DOB is a pro-drug, that such a metabolite exists, and that one can achieve "a better DOB" experience by fucking with their internal metabolism---never-mind the fact that if this actually worked and one could enhance the levels of the metabolite by clogging up liver enzymes, that it would qualitatively not be the same experience as taking DOB and wouldn't necessarily be better.

Now rinse and repeat with mescaline, the only difference being that mescaline is about 100X less potent, so there is perhaps a slightly increased chance of there being some metabolite that's actually active. However, just as with DOB, no such metabolite has been discovered and reported on. Your claims are not based on any affirmative evidence---only speculation which you peddle as fact. That's not how science works!

Rhetorically; if you can make mescaline active at 10mg I'd assume that you know more than me about how mescaline works!!!

I'm sorry I can't make mescaline active in a human at 10 mg, so I guess everyone else should assume that you know more about mescaline than me. That's Aliice In Wonderland level logic there! Are you perma-drunk on pomegranate wine? And maybe perma-tripping too, on barley grass brewed with rye, as that seems to be a thing lately? If so, then you can believe many fascinating nuanced things about the dynamics of endocrine and metabolic system as well as the background and knowledge base of the people you seem to be trying to discredit. In the interest of harm reduction, I'm not going to say anything about how to appropriately trip off of banana peels. No way no how! You're already way over the line.

 

[Allylbenzene]

This has nothing to do with my claim that the low potency of mescaline does not imply that it is an inactive pro-drug.

Perhaps your claim is a little simplistic and lacking informed context. You didn't properly read since I wrote its an active prodrug.

Context matters. Eg an organic chemist who knows nothing about the nuanced...

And who are you alluding to about being an "organic chemist who knows nothing about the nuance dynamics of endocrine & metabolic system"?

If you reread you'll see that I wrote "Eg". It was merely an example about why context matters (ironically). I'm sure that people who fit the description do exist.

However, just as with DOB, no such metabolite has been discovered and reported on. Your claims are not based on any affirmative evidence---only speculation which you peddle as fact. That's not how science works!

Fortunately for mescaline there exists ample strong data points, albeit the majority are anecdotal. But there's enough there making it something I can't rationalise away and ignore. Otherwise I'd agree with you, xdrc, Skorpio and others who subscribe to the current consensus (which I once agreed with too).

...that one can achieve "a better DOB" experience by fucking with their internal metabolism

It sounds like you don't quite grasp the nature of temporary ALDH inhibition. It's reminiscent of temporary MAO inhibition using Caapi or Syrian Rue. People ingest temporary ALDHIs all the time.

---never-mind the fact that if this actually worked and one could enhance the levels of the metabolite by clogging up liver enzymes that it would qualitatively not be the same experience as taking DOB

Your statements betray your diverse presuppositions. If, as I'm suggesting, mescaline is a (weakly active) prodrug then obviously its active metabolites will produce a different experience.

Rhetorically; if you can make mescaline active at 10mg...

I'm sorry I can't make mescaline active in a human at 10 mg, so I guess everyone else should assume that you know more about mescaline than me. That's Aliice In Wonderland level logic there!

Ok. I think perhaps you underestimated the nuances of the word "rhetorically"; and seem to have degenerated into making associations reminiscent of Didgitals pseudo-schizophrenic percepts.

 

[ions]

These things are a blessing. Don't blow my cover, it's just that MDMA is very valuable.
Sorry to those that have a bad time with it.
It's tough out there.

 

[arrall]

First trip in almost a year last night.
It was fun

 

[Mjäll]

It's interesting that in Jason Wallach's 2023 paper he shows undeniably that mescaline is very weak. Almost like it's some sort of weakly active prodrug!

Did he even mention mescaline in the study? Can't find it.

That whole discussion is such a mindfuck.

Why do you think mescaline is a prodrug? Why can't it just be a weak drug?

Btw are you a new alias for some previous account?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Why can't it just be a weak drug?

It is a weak drug.

Why do you think mescaline is a prodrug?

From the literature data and anecdotal data.
The notion of mescaline being a prodrug was 'uncovered' by accident during other investigations. We found a website which detailed everything about the aldehyde and various enzymes involved etc. So clearly someone already knew about it being a prodrug. This was back in 2011 so the literature is very much outdated and subsequently misleading (dogma reigns).

More recently the notion of mescaline being an active prodrug was alluded to in a 2021 publication on the 3,4,5 series. Authors include Daniel Trachsel.

However, different downstream signaling cascades, biased agonism, and other pharmacological targets may contribute to the subjective effects. Mescaline binds and activates the 5-HT2A receptor as partial agonist with low potency in vitro. Nevertheless, in vivo, it induces intense and long lasting psychedelic effects if applied at high doses. This suggests that low affinity binding to the receptor does not exclude marked psychoactivity in vivo...

However, for 3,4,5-substituted derivatives additional pharmacological interactions or targets may significantly contribute to the overall psychedelic effects observed in humans.

They're unknowingly looking at a weakly active prodrug so their commentary isn't surprising.

Btw are you a new alias for some previous account?

No.

Did he even mention mescaline in the study? Can't find it.

Correction: I meant this 2023 paper.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I agree mescaline has a slow come-up, but all long acting phenethylamines tend to be like that.

You are (understandably) accruing a long list of "ways to rationalise why mescaline is the primary drug". I guess in your position I'd do the same.

I feel it building starting at T0:20h ... I do not agree with it having a biphasic nature for me.

For you perhaps, but as you know everyone has a different enzymatic landscape. Yours is unlike the poster who noticed mescaline having a biphasic nature.

Besides enzymes, everyone has different levels of endogenous secondary amines (specifically dimethylamine, 1-piperideine, 1-pyrroline) which originate largely from diet (choline, lysine, ornithine/arginine respectively).

Considering the precedent set by Oswald et al who discovered their (2° amines) involvement in endogenous amination (forming the dimethyl, piperidyl & pyrrolidyl) this seems relevant. Indeed, recent mescaline "teks" involve predosing with either lysine, choline or ornithine/arginine with the goal of elevating the respective 2° amine. Used alongside a mild ALDHI this produces intriguing results (it's not dimethyl-mescaline or variations thereof).

This rational understanding provides an explanation for the wide variation in doses used. Some do fine with 200mg whilst others need 800–1000mg+. For some it's totally "inactive". One of the key reasons is found by considering the enzymatic landscape, which is why it pays off to know which common items induce ALDH thus rendering mescaline weak/"inactive".

 

[Didgital]

Btw are you a new alias for some previous account?

Yeah he's Tregar, but actually discusses things.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Yeah he's Tregar, but actually discusses things.

No matter how often you make the claim won't make it true. Your sprawling accusations are innocently byzantine (neither the city, architectural nor religious definition).