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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Kratom raises tolerence or acts like a blocker to oxycodone?

No need to apologize, thanks for the info. It might be interesting and useful to have a new thread with the information that you and others can consolidate from these and other studies, plus personal experience. But then again, I think there is an awful lot of unsettled science and knowledge around kratom. Complicated drug!
For me, the Nature article was the easiest to follow. The others made my head hurt: I need the simplified version!
I don't really have much experience with kratom, it's pretty new to me. I like it and am concerned I will learn to like it too much, so I am trying to learn about it. One subjective thing I noticed ( and I am very sensitive to drugs and have only been taking 2-5 g, usually 2 or 3) is that after the initial stimulating high wears off ( 3 or 4 hrs) it still leaves a feeling of contentment which lasts longer. Maybe that's the OH7 working after the mitragynine wears off or is converted to OH7? The long half life working? Dunno. There is a lot of subjectivity of experience with kratom.
 
The more I used kratom the shorter it seemed to last. At the height of my use it felt like it was shy of four hours of effect. At times I felt like I only got two hours out of it. But you’re right about it feeling like it lasts longer.

7oh on the other hand when I tried 7oh for the first time, as an isolate not as a metabolite, it lasted like eight hours. It just gradually waned in duration over repeat dosages.

That said kratom gave me an opportunity for me to get my life back and for all the short duration of the annoyance of having to drink sludge water. I love the stuff and I’m grateful it exists.

I hope it’s a lot of fun for you. Don’t be afraid to take little tolerance breaks for a day and a half or so, so that you can be mindful of where you’re at in terms of dependency. Kratom does share that tendency to cause withdrawal symptoms with opiates.
 
Yeah, I've been taking breaks. Definitely no physical addiction, but I do notice how much I want to do it again. Plus they sell it everywhere. There is a store a 10 minute walk from my house that sells it ( though I avoid buying it there) I feel like it is creeping up on me and I need to control that. But for various reasons in my life right now that is harder at present.
I'm glad to hear that it helped you get your life back.
 
The more I used kratom the shorter it seemed to last. At the height of my use it felt like it was shy of four hours of effect. At times I felt like I only got two hours out of it. But you’re right about it feeling like it lasts longer.
Yuuuuup, same with me. At first I could go quite a long time, maybe even more than 4 hours. Then it became barely two hours of just feeling 'normal'
 
I disagree with what you're saying here, respectfully. I'd be interested to see what kind of research you are looking at. Kratom is relatively new on the block, at least as far as "Western Medicine" is concerned. We know that it has been used in its heartland, Southeast Asia for some time, mostly as a painkiller.

We know at this point that the active alkaloids within the Kratom plant are Mitragynine and its analogs. Mitragynine has been shown to be an Opioid agonist based upon research into the pharmacology of the plant.

It's telling that Kratom largely became popular as it was used by Opioid-dependent individuals as a stop-gap solution when other Opioids were unavailable and also as a withdrawal aid; Mitragynine is an Opioid of relatively mild potency, so folks tend to use it to step down from stronger Opioids.

We know that the research available to us clearly indicates that Mitragynine is an Opioid agonist. In addition, we have a tremendous amount of case studies just here on Bluelight of individuals who are Opioid-dependent using it in the above-stated applications. There have been analogs of Mitragynine sold of higher potency that Opioid-dependent individuals compare to Opioids in essentially every way.

The argument isn't really "is it an Opioid" the argument is "does it do other things aside from its Opioid agonism". It might do other things, but Occam's Razor would suggest that it's an Opioid and that's why Opioid users like it.
Of course it is always good to have a respectful discussion. Kratom is not new at all. The first good papers on it began in 1988. That is relatively new to an old man like me but ancient to most folks here.

OK, as you probably know there are 3 different colourations in leaf veins: White, Green & Red. The colouration is not due to typological differentiation but to maturation. The White has almost no 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7-OH). It's psychoactively a stimulant.The Green has perceptible 7-OH. Then the Red has the most 7-OH. If harvested at peak maturity you might find an average of 1.75% content. But, to show you what a waste Kratom concentrates & tinctures are, the greatest source of 7-OH is actually the Indolic alkaloid Mitragynine via in vitro metabolites.

At peak maturity leaves might average 60% Mitragynine, the chief alkaloid in the leaf. However, the amount converted in vitro is not quantified despite the fast & furious research taking place over the last decade. In fact manufacturers of concentrates & tinctures seem to be unaware that claiming "5X" or whatever strength of 7-OH is entirely non sensical. IF most net 7-OH is derived in vitro, how can they claim ANY strength?

It is such a crap shoot that the (US) DEA backed off of its push to Schedule Kratom & its supposed derivatives in 2016/2017. It sought Class I, i.e. the same Schedule as heroin! When DEA chemists tried to quantify its aspects they found it impossible to do so. They withdrew the entire campaign!

The point I tried to make originally was, if it is impossible to get consistent percentages of 7-OH, how could these manufacturers even know what percentages of 7-OH their products contain? IF they cannot- and they cannot- then how safe are their products? There is noone but the manufacturer paying attention. Of course their concern is financial.

There is no peer reviewed work that I am aware of that examines Kratom polytoxcity. It has been present in deaths but only as a polyexposure. There is no watchdog ensuring anything about the product(s). All there is are subjective experiences of users. Of course those can be embellished or even entirely contrived.

As I used to say here years ago, if folks want to deal with Kratom, they ought to simply source whole leaf, not concentrates or tinctures.

If you would like to look at some papers, just tell me which aspect you are interested in. There is some very interesting work.
 
Hey @Rachrach I totally understand what you're getting at regarding the "age" of Kratom in terms of research. Just know that when I talk about something being old, I'm talking about stuff like Opium (Morphine) that has been used since before the written word. We have papers written on Opium from Muslim doctors from the 10th century. We have doctors in both the Western/Eastern Roman empires who studied and worked with Opium among other plants/substances.

The first "truly scientific", in a modern sense, began in earnest in the 19th century. We have treatises on Opium/Morphine, Cocaine, Alcohol etc. going back centuries. We have serious scientific research on these things that are a century old. While Kratom is not "new", it is so in regard to its use in Western Medicine. Ponder how long we have been studying Morphine. How much do we really fucking understand about these things even after centuries? The answer is, "some stuff". We have yet to craft a painkiller as effective as the Opioids without the addictive properties. Such a thing would revolutionize the world we live in. We just don't know enough to figure out how to filter out what we want from what we don't want.

So I'm coming from the place of these other drugs being known from time immemorial. Kratom is relatively new when you consider all of this. I do understand what you're saying though. In the age of the internet, the 80's are ancient history.
 
I know this is quite old. I've been taking Kratom for about 10 years. Used to do about 5g a day(basically a tablespoon so it varies) not I take the same about 2-3 times a day. Or sometimes not at all. To me, if I had to pick one single thing out of the medications I currently take to continue, I'd choose kratom. You've probably heard all the anecdotal benefits.

But yes, it definitely makes my tolerance for opiates quite high. I had to do "twilight anesthesia" and warned multiple parties that it takes quite a bit of anesthesia to work on me. Had to have an endoscopy fully awake and aware it was terrible. But they didn't listen to me as to be expected.

Also, I haven't been using opiates in quite awhile. Took a 100mg ER morphine tablet. Was a little worried since I also take Valium and other meds and drink. But honestly feels good. The little 5mg IV morphine I've received at the hospital is basically like some better working ibuprofen.

They were shooting me up with fentanyl and something else for the "twilight anesthesia". The nurse knew the doctor could give a shit, they couldn't even finish the entire procedure because I started gagging dry heaving with the tube down to my stomach completely fine, not even drowsy.

So I would say definitely yes, kratom affects opioid effectiveness and tolerance by some mechanism.

I've also been a casual to too casual of a recreational drug/alcohol user for most of my life in some shape or form. I think that in itself conditions the body and mind to be familiar with what to expect, or change how much of a thing will effect you even if you've been clean for years.

Depends on the person too, everyone is effected differently based on more factors than probably anyone knows.
 
I know this is quite old. I've been taking Kratom for about 10 years. Used to do about 5g a day(basically a tablespoon so it varies) not I take the same about 2-3 times a day. Or sometimes not at all. To me, if I had to pick one single thing out of the medications I currently take to continue, I'd choose kratom. You've probably heard all the anecdotal benefits.

But yes, it definitely makes my tolerance for opiates quite high. I had to do "twilight anesthesia" and warned multiple parties that it takes quite a bit of anesthesia to work on me. Had to have an endoscopy fully awake and aware it was terrible. But they didn't listen to me as to be expected.

Also, I haven't been using opiates in quite awhile. Took a 100mg ER morphine tablet. Was a little worried since I also take Valium and other meds and drink. But honestly feels good. The little 5mg IV morphine I've received at the hospital is basically like some better working ibuprofen.

They were shooting me up with fentanyl and something else for the "twilight anesthesia". The nurse knew the doctor could give a shit, they couldn't even finish the entire procedure because I started gagging dry heaving with the tube down to my stomach completely fine, not even drowsy.

So I would say definitely yes, kratom affects opioid effectiveness and tolerance by some mechanism.

I've also been a casual to too casual of a recreational drug/alcohol user for most of my life in some shape or form. I think that in itself conditions the body and mind to be familiar with what to expect, or change how much of a thing will effect you even if you've been clean for years.

Depends on the person too, everyone is effected differently based on more factors than probably anyone knows.
Forgot to mention, I tried the 7-OH tablets and I would advise to stay clear from them. Yes they work well. But even after a couple weeks I experienced higher usage and bad withdrawals. I have only experienced mild to almost no withdrawling effects after stopping powdered kratom leaf for periods of tine (month or so). But I rarely stop because of the benefits kratom has provided me.
 
I'm commenting for the sake of posterity. Yes. Absolutely Kratom will *completely* destroy any does of oxycodone you attempt to take. I railed 10 real 15's one night years ago in celebration after I successfully grew 3 pounds of outdoor weed not 100 feet from the front door of my job at the time. It's one of my most beloved hilarious stories, but that's the gist of it. It was the first time I ever tried to get truly blasted since starting Kratom and I felt nothing but drowsy off TEN. No rush, no euphoria. Not a thing. I have quite a few other stories, but that's the main point. Kratom has a superior binding affinity. Bottom line.
 
In my experience kratom absolutely blocks opiates like codeine, DHC, and even poppy pods from working fully. This is due to kratom's partial agonist effect on the opiate receptors, or in other words it blocks or occupies the receptors for some time.

I've researched this widely online, and the duration of the blocking effect varies across individuals from a day or two, to up to a week, or longer.

There seems to be a fairly wide range of individual variances to this effect.

Reasons for the long duration could be the remnants of undigested kratom plant matter, continuing to be digested for several days after the last dose, accounting for the long blocking duration in some people.

For me, I definitely need at least 1 full week after large doses of kratom. 10 days would be better to be absolutely sure that those opiate receptors have shaken off the last remnants of kratom, and will be able to respond fully to opiates once again.

It's definitely not permanent though, and the effect should not last much longer than 7,10,14 days at the worst, judging by all individual responses I read.

Some people state that kratom usage can affect opiate tolerance in the long term. That hasn't been the case in my experience. After a few years on kratom I tapered off, and shortly after completing my taper, I was able to get a definite buzz from just 60mg of codeine, taken for medical reasons, at the time.
 
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I don't know why it happens, but it sure does. Kratom definitely seems to dull the effects of other opioids.
 
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