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Tryptamines Beta-carbolines and kratom

General alcazar

General alcazar

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Joined
Jan 15, 2007
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South American Jungle
I’ve asked this before and not received any replies, so I’ll try again. Anyone use kratom with MAOIs, specifically beta-carbolines? I’m not sure, given the many alkaloids in kratom, that there might be some negative interaction. If I get no replies, I’ll start really low of harmaline, THH, then harmine, and see what happens. I’d like to indulge in some changa or ayahuasca, but I don’t want to end up in an ER. Given that kratom doesn’t seem to interact with anything else I’ve taken, and known alkaloids have no monoamines as far as I can tell, I think it’ll be okay, but please share your experiences.
 
Dont think kratom has tyramine in it so should be safe to try. Its only high tyramine foods you need to avoid right? Certain cheeses like the cheese you find under an 80 year old frenchmans foreskin etc.
 
I would tread very carefully. Kratom, particularly the regular powder type, will significantly pharmacokinetically interact with so many different things. This particular interaction could be very serious. Kratom + other things has sent me to the hospital before.

Ismene2 said:
Dont think kratom has tyramine in it so should be safe to try.
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Mitragynine is a derivative of tryptamine. Kratom also has several serotonergic alkaloids and has significant pharmacological activity at 5ht2a, primarily as an antagonist.

It's probably reasonably safe to try in low doses. If you are addicted to kratom and take large doses daily I would not attempt this.
 
Ismene2 said:
Do you mean tryptamine or tyramine?
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Tryptamine.

MAOi isn't only potentially dangerous with tyramine specifically. Mixing it with certain drugs can entail risk of serotonin syndrome. Don't post shit just to post shit.
 
I don't have any personal experience there but I'd say it could be very dangerous. There is a high risk of bad interactions and a risk of serotonin syndrome.
In general, both kratom and MAOIs are strong inhibitors of the liver enzymes CYPD26 and CYP3A4. These enzymes are how the body metabolizes many, many types of drugs in the body, both psychoactive ones and more ordinary ones like statins. Taking them both increases the risk of screwing up that metabolism and altering the desired effects of all drugs involved
 
Ime risk of combining betacarbolines with other substances is often quite exaggerated, but that does not mean that this particular combination is safe. Be careful and start low.
 
The only problem I've ever heard with an maoi is high tyramine content. And like I say - the only thing you find that in the kind of rare cheese found under a frenchmans foreskin.
 
Mjäll said:
Tryptamine.

MAOi isn't only potentially dangerous with tyramine specifically. Mixing it with certain drugs can entail risk of serotonin syndrome. Don't post shit just to post shit.
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How the fuck can it being a tryptamine be a problem? The whole point of maoi is to TAKE tryptamines with it. I've taken maoi with a dozen tryptamines. Dont be daft.
 
Themailman said:
I would tread very carefully. Kratom, particularly the regular powder type, will significantly pharmacokinetically interact with so many different things. This particular interaction could be very serious. Kratom + other things has sent me to the hospital before.


Mitragynine is a derivative of tryptamine. Kratom also has several serotonergic alkaloids and has significant pharmacological activity at 5ht2a, primarily as an antagonist.

It's probably reasonably safe to try in low doses. If you are addicted to kratom and take large doses daily I would not attempt this.
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This is the stance I have taken and I have not used harmala or anything since being on plain kratom powder. Of course i did as much research as I could and from reading found half the people say it is ok, in fact @Esperighanto had a good write up on the combo. Me personally will just wait until I am off as I follow that same caution you outlined.

A few thoughts I gathered. Kratom is not yohimbe or ephedra. The stimulating aspect of kratom does not seem the same stimulant action on the nervous system as those. People can take kratom and go right to sleep. I am sure that is not the case with ephedra or yohimbe. I personally feel the stimulant aspect of kratom is the same as any other opiate. They all can give a type of energy, but not the same as a stimulant. Also I know people talk of all the effects of plain kratom leaf, but what i noticed is all the extra alkaloids seem very mild, if effective at all. (again JMO from my own experimentation)

So I think I have read every post on this topic on any and all boards. I myself would not the combo, although there are others that do seek to mix the two and have decent results.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but mitragynine doesn’t have a monoamine. However, I’m concerned about all the other alkaloids. Since no one’s tested kratom and MAOIs, guess I’ll have to give it a try … incrementally. My guess is that it won’t pose a problem. Lotsa drugs have some MAO inhibition, and I’ve been using kratom for decades along with all kinds of RCs and other drugs. Guess I’ll find out when I find the time to do so.
 
JackARoe said:
This is the stance I have taken and I have not used harmala or anything since being on plain kratom powder. Of course i did as much research as I could and from reading found half the people say it is ok, in fact @Esperighanto had a good write up on the combo. Me personally will just wait until I am off as I follow that same caution you outlined.

A few thoughts I gathered. Kratom is not yohimbe or ephedra. The stimulating aspect of kratom does not seem the same stimulant action on the nervous system as those. People can take kratom and go right to sleep. I am sure that is not the case with ephedra or yohimbe. I personally feel the stimulant aspect of kratom is the same as any other opiate. They all can give a type of energy, but not the same as a stimulant. Also I know people talk of all the effects of plain kratom leaf, but what i noticed is all the extra alkaloids seem very mild, if effective at all. (again JMO from my own experimentation)

So I think I have read every post on this topic on any and all boards. I myself would not the combo, although there are others that do seek to mix the two and have decent results.
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I agree with everything here.

I'd like to add that i wouldn't want to mix them because they seem to have opposite purposes. Kratom, while mild, is ultimately a means of coping or escape, subjectively pushing problems away at the expense of impairing function by attenuating certain signals and slowing down digestion. Harmala alkaloids are a tool for spiritual insight that one takes with the intention of purifying or detoxing the body, to hasten a process that could be somewhat uncomfortable. It is a contrast between denial and confrontation. By the same logic i have no desire to combine kratom with psychedelics.

This could all just be prejudiced bullshit on my part. Anyway i'm not condemning the tactical deployment of escapism and denial.
 
General alcazar said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but mitragynine doesn’t have a monoamine. However, I’m concerned about all the other alkaloids. Since no one’s tested kratom and MAOIs, guess I’ll have to give it a try … incrementally. My guess is that it won’t pose a problem. Lotsa drugs have some MAO inhibition, and I’ve been using kratom for decades along with all kinds of RCs and other drugs. Guess I’ll find out when I find the time to do so.
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If it's a big worry why not try moclobemide first - a reversible maoi - rather than beta carbolines. I've always used moclobemide for any maoi experiments myself simply cos I thought it would cause less nausea with ayahuasca, although it didn't really work cos it's the DMT that causes the nausea not the maoi.
 
General alcazar said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but mitragynine doesn’t have a monoamine. However, I’m concerned about all the other alkaloids. Since no one’s tested kratom and MAOIs, guess I’ll have to give it a try … incrementally. My guess is that it won’t pose a problem. Lotsa drugs have some MAO inhibition, and I’ve been using kratom for decades along with all kinds of RCs and other drugs. Guess I’ll find out when I find the time to do so.
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I've mixed them without question hundreds of times personally, it's absolutely separate from interacting with one another. People think Ritalin interacts with Harmalas too for some reason and it doesn't. Coca tea doesn't either, but ephedra tea or bupropion will absolutely fucking kill you in combination with Harmalas. If you ever want to read more on weird harmala combos I've tested and taken notes on lmk I'll whip a thread up.
 
Esperighanto said:
I've mixed them without question hundreds of times personally, it's absolutely separate from interacting with one another. People think Ritalin interacts with Harmalas too for some reason and it doesn't. Coca tea doesn't either, but ephedra tea or bupropion will absolutely fucking kill you in combination with Harmalas. If you ever want to read more on weird harmala combos I've tested and taken notes on lmk I'll whip a thread up.
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Yes please
 
Thanks for that Esperighanto!!

I think maoi is one of the greatest sources of half-baked, bro science bullshit I've ever read.

I looked into it when I was taking pharmahuasca - I got panicked by some bro scientist - so I went and looked and all of the "diet restrictions" are so obscure I've never even heard of half of them never mind eaten them! "Avoid the cheese from under a 100 year old Frenchmans foreskin...this will DEFINATELY kill you..." "If you eat the egg of the Giant sumatran oceolot dont even bother calling an ambulance...."
 
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I get that kratom and MAOIs are different, but I have a physical dependence to kratom, and it would take me 3-4 weeks of pain to stop. I’d rather not go through that at this point in my life just to use ayahuasca or changa. I don’t have access to moclobemide so I’ll just start with low doses. I have purified harmine, harmaline, and THH kicking around, so I’ll test each rather than caapi or harmala tea. Less nauseating that way. I’ll post after.
 
Esperighanto said:
People think Ritalin interacts with Harmalas too for some reason and it doesn't.
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Methylphenidate only inhibits dopamine reuptake and therefore has no risk for hypertension when combined with MAOIs.

Meyer, J.M. Modern Use of MAOIs. Psychopharmacology Institute, 2019-07-01 05. Drug Interactions With MAOIs: Pressor Reactions From Other Medications


The prescriber’s guide to classic MAO inhibitors for treatment-resistant depression* lists methylphenidate under this section:

6.6 Safe to combine (although caution is advised because of possible potentiation of effect and side effect)


At the end of this documentary, Hamilton Morris takes a Ritalin on a low dose of ayahuasca:

Tripping on Hallucinogenic Frogs (Part 3/3). Hamilton's Pharmacopeia S1E3. Vice. Oct 19, 2012 (17:55)


They'll be fine regardless, it's good to give it the time necessary to break down in the body and be metabolized out, but with that said there's no negative interactions between Ritalin and Ayahuasca, in fact i myself have taken the combo (as well as using Isopropylphenidate instead of Methylphenidate), and Hamilton Morris also has taken the combination, and i've also had Mucuna L-Dopa in combination with Aya and Harmalas on their own, and there's been no issues noted.

Sabnock101, 2023-11-16, reddit


*The prescriber’s guide to classic MAO inhibitors (phenelzine, tranylcypromine, isocarboxazid) for treatment-resistant depression. Van den Eynde V, Abdelmoemin WR, Abraham MM, et al. CNS Spectrums. 2023;28(4):427-440. doi:10.1017/S1092852922000906

Esperighanto said:
but ephedra tea or bupropion will absolutely fucking kill you in combination with Harmalas.
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"But there’s more to ancient Haoma than just harmala. As some scholars note, the Iranian beverage frequently combined Syrian rue with Ephedra—rich in the stimulant ephedrine—adding a wakeful, energizing quality to the brew."

"What emerges is a multi-layered drink: on the one hand, harmala compounds produce a dreamlike, introspective state; on the other, ephedrine provides a stimulating, wakeful energy. [ … ] This synergy reflects a carefully choreographed path toward spiritual insight—one requiring both heightened awareness (thanks to ephedrine) and inward-turning visions (thanks to harmala and possibly atropine)."

One Compound, Three Sacred Drinks: Harmala Alkaloids. Shauheen Etminan. 2025-04-08. Magi Ancestral Supplements Inc.


"It has no untoward interactions with MAOIs."

CNS ‘Stimulants’ and MAOIs. Ken Gillman, M.D. 2002, 2026. https://www.psychotropical.com/maois-and-cns-stimulants/

That quote is from the Bupropion section.
 
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