Health Making Ayahausca

[Khacorrat]

I could have sworn I pirated a book called "Ayahuasca Adjuncts" a while back but right now I am at an absolute loss trying to find information about it. In general, reading about pharmacology and learning more about these drugs in general is quite helpful. As far as ayahuasca adjuncts specifically go, look into indigenous practices but beware, mixing something like datura will not lead to a good time.

Any other info you could give about region, season, or the plant here would be super helpful, I'm a weirdo about pursuing underdocumented entheogens. Triandrus narcissus was first mentioned here on Bluelight iirc.

Ok, I will take a look for this book! I use to find a lot of books this way!
Actually, I go through a few topics on different forums who talks about harmaline/harmine/thh, the different plants species etc. It was a pretty Interesting reading actually.


About the plant, I will try to do my best to remember any information about it!
By the way, it's pretty fun that your so interested so much by the entheogens. By any chance, did you read any ethnobotany books?

To talk a little about me, I started my interest for drugs through a particular interest for shamabism, who lead me to entheogens, etc. To be sure, I will not try datura! That's for sure, I remember reading trip reports like 15 years ago and if the idea go through my mind once, the reading of it just stop me. But for sure I found really interesting the works of anthropologist about the shamanisctic practice and the way those people use so much plant species! Some we wouldn't want to ingrzt for a lot of reason.

I'm way more versed on the social science aspect than the botanic/pharmacologist one, but still I try to understand a little about what I choose to consume

 

[vegan]

Hi,

Sorry if someone already said this; I don't have the patience to read the thread in detail:
Syrian rue tastes absolutely disgusting, and the extraction is super easy. Go for it. It will significantly lower the risk of vomiting.
(I used Mankse's Acetic Acid Peganum Harmala Extraction. It was a long time ago, so there may be new methods out there; but it already worked great)

The amount of DMT needed will depend on your metabolism and on your crystals' purity. So, the only way to know is to start low and try more the following time.
Some people get full effects with 100mg, but from my extraction, I needed around 400.
Most people get the effects within an hour; but not everyone. I systematically start feeling something after around two hours, but the experience only really starts at four hours. So, I would recommend planning several sessions (including "failures") to find out how your body reacts.
Do not just redose because you're not feeling anything after three hours. I even got tricked into redosing at the 4h point when I thought I hadn't taken enough, just to start feeling the effect five minutes after redosing... and ended up way further than I had planned. It was cosmically blissful, but "overwhelming" doesn't even start to describe.

If you try a certain dose one day and don't get where you want, wait a couple days before your next try.
Before using the extractions, I first tried the brew. One time, I didn't get enough effects because I vomited too quickly. So, I tried again the following day, and the next one. I got serotonin syndrome as a result, while on a full dose. You do not want that. Seriously. Those were the two longest and most unpleasant hours of my life.

 

[Jahvisions]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...rom_Peganum_Harmala_Seed_In_Low-Tech_Settings

A harm-reduction approach to the isolation of harmine and its hydrogenated derivatives from Peganum Harmala seed in low-tech settings
Frederick Van Der Sypt

 

[scabbard]

Hi,

Sorry if someone already said this; I don't have the patience to read the thread in detail:
Syrian rue tastes absolutely disgusting, and the extraction is super easy. Go for it. It will significantly lower the risk of vomiting.
(I used Mankse's Acetic Acid Peganum Harmala Extraction. It was a long time ago, so there may be new methods out there; but it already worked great)

The amount of DMT needed will depend on your metabolism and on your crystals' purity. So, the only way to know is to start low and try more the following time.
Some people get full effects with 100mg, but from my extraction, I needed around 400.
Most people get the effects within an hour; but not everyone. I systematically start feeling something after around two hours, but the experience only really starts at four hours. So, I would recommend planning several sessions (including "failures") to find out how your body reacts.
Do not just redose because you're not feeling anything after three hours. I even got tricked into redosing at the 4h point when I thought I hadn't taken enough, just to start feeling the effect five minutes after redosing... and ended up way further than I had planned. It was cosmically blissful, but "overwhelming" doesn't even start to describe.

If you try a certain dose one day and don't get where you want, wait a couple days before your next try.
Before using the extractions, I first tried the brew. One time, I didn't get enough effects because I vomited too quickly. So, I tried again the following day, and the next one. I got serotonin syndrome as a result, while on a full dose. You do not want that. Seriously. Those were the two longest and most unpleasant hours of my life.

Hey @vegan thanks for your post. Tell me more about the extraction, I don't understand exactly what that means. Are you referring to processing the Syrian Rue in some way to extract the harmine and harmaline from it, or just to get one of those alkaloids? Why would that be advantageous to taking it in its regular form (aside from the disgusting taste, which is not too much of a concern for me, I figure I could mix it with something)?

Also, how did you get serotonin syndrome? Are you saying that was caused by stacking back-to-back days of ingesting Syrian Rue and then you accumulated too much in your system and that, combined with the DMT, gave you the serotonin syndrome? Is that why you're recommending waiting multiple days between tries, in order to allow the MAOI/DMT from the previous session to be fully cleared out so you're not building on top of it (unknowingly) the next time you dose? It doesn't entirely make sense to me that it would cause serotonin syndrome doing it back-to-back like that since Ayahuasca retreats commonly do multiple sessions sequentially. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Are you saying that using the brew with the straight Syrian Rue seeds caused it, and that somehow it wouldn't have been an issue had you instead used the extract?

 

[Didgital]

Hey @vegan thanks for your post. Tell me more about the extraction, I don't understand exactly what that means. Are you referring to processing the Syrian Rue in some way to extract the harmine and harmaline from it, or just to get one of those alkaloids? Why would that be advantageous to taking it in its regular form (aside from the disgusting taste, which is not too much of a concern for me, I figure I could mix it with something)?

Also, how did you get serotonin syndrome? Are you saying that was caused by stacking back-to-back days of ingesting Syrian Rue and then you accumulated too much in your system and that, combined with the DMT, gave you the serotonin syndrome? Is that why you're recommending waiting multiple days between tries, in order to allow the MAOI/DMT from the previous session to be fully cleared out so you're not building on top of it (unknowingly) the next time you dose? It doesn't entirely make sense to me that it would cause serotonin syndrome doing it back-to-back like that since Ayahuasca retreats commonly do multiple sessions sequentially. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Are you saying that using the brew with the straight Syrian Rue seeds caused it, and that somehow it wouldn't have been an issue had you instead used the extract?

it does taste very bitter, but it's not the worst thing I've ever consumed. That actually goes to Picralima nitada which I'm looking at right now. That said, I certainly prefer to take extract over the tea mainly to avoid the taste but also just so I have a more accurate idea of dosing.

As far as Rue extraction, it's not difficult but it requires patience and a lot of filtering. It is VERY rewarding though and very pretty as the extracts glow crazy colors under a blacklight. Orange/blue/green! Dissolving the extract in solution is absolutely gorgeous. The seeds can be pretty high %, over 7% so extracting a small amount gives a lot of goods. Depending on how pure you get it, it grows beautiful orange crystals.

The Tao of Rue Extraction - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

 

[scabbard]

But is the extract really necessary from a functional standpoint (aside from using it to avoid a mucky taste), or will taking the seeds orally without the extract be just as efficacious in terms of functioning as an MAOI so the DMT isn't broken down in my gut in comparison to using the extract? I don't really care about the taste, so I'd gladly avoid the headache of extraction if my psychedelic experience won't be jeopardized by not using the extract.

 

[Didgital]

But is the extract really necessary from a functional standpoint (aside from using it to avoid a mucky taste), or will taking the seeds orally without the extract be just as efficacious in terms of functioning as an MAOI so the DMT isn't broken down in my gut in comparison to using the extract? I don't really care about the taste, so I'd gladly avoid the headache of extraction if my psychedelic experience won't be jeopardized by not using the extract.

from a functional standpoint no it is not necessary. Much easier to make a hot tea, steep the seeds (3g or so) for 10minutes, filter out, drink.

 

[Esperighanto]

Picralima nitada

Just out of curiosity, how would you characterize this plant? It's rare I run into a psychoactive natural product that I haven't at least heard of. A quick google search indicated that it contains akuammine and some similar alkaloids, so I assume it's a mu opioid agonist?

 

[Didgital]

Just out of curiosity, how would you characterize this plant? It's rare I run into a psychoactive natural product that I haven't at least heard of. A quick google search indicated that it contains akuammine and some similar alkaloids, so I assume it's a mu opioid agonist?

Yeah has alkaloids like akuakmine, pericine, akkuamicine, the akkuamacine is supposed to be a potent kappa opioid agonist.

I don't know how much effect I get from it, if anything it's like a milder kratom from a psychoactive point of view.
It did seem to help with some gum swelling I had one night but I also took ibuprofen.

I got it as a water extract, its a glassy material that I originally tried to redissolve in hot water for a tea, and while only a small portion actually dissolved the water was so bitter I could not drink it. Since then ill place a piece on a molar and try and crunch it apart and swallow the pieces.

 

[vegan]

Hey @vegan thanks for your post. Tell me more about the extraction, I don't understand exactly what that means. Are you referring to processing the Syrian Rue in some way to extract the harmine and harmaline from it, or just to get one of those alkaloids? Why would that be advantageous to taking it in its regular form (aside from the disgusting taste, which is not too much of a concern for me, I figure I could mix it with something)?

Also, how did you get serotonin syndrome? Are you saying that was caused by stacking back-to-back days of ingesting Syrian Rue and then you accumulated too much in your system and that, combined with the DMT, gave you the serotonin syndrome? Is that why you're recommending waiting multiple days between tries, in order to allow the MAOI/DMT from the previous session to be fully cleared out so you're not building on top of it (unknowingly) the next time you dose? It doesn't entirely make sense to me that it would cause serotonin syndrome doing it back-to-back like that since Ayahuasca retreats commonly do multiple sessions sequentially. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Are you saying that using the brew with the straight Syrian Rue seeds caused it, and that somehow it wouldn't have been an issue had you instead used the extract?

- The proposed extractions above look great, but you really don't need to complicate things that much.
The following Acetic Acid Method below works wonders: https://www.erowid.org/plants/syrian_rue/syrian_rue_extraction5.shtml
Less is more.
It takes under one hour, plus the time for the solution to cool and the crystals to precipitate over night.
All alkaloids get extracted.

- Eating the extractions instead of the plants/brew brings the risk of vomiting from close to 100% to close to almost zero.
It's also less unpleasant to take. I find the taste so disgusting that I developed a gag reflex, and I just can't drink the brew anymore.
And you only need to do the extraction once for many doses and keep it in something no larger than a matchbox, instead of brewing a large volume every time.
Depending on your situation, it may also be convenient to have for storing (takes no place in the fridge) and transportation. I was able to take what I had with me when I moved abroad, which wouldn't have been possible with the plants.

But it's a question of preference. If brewed Syrian rue works fine for you, go for it.

- Yes, I think that the serotonin syndrome was from taking the rue three days in a row, probably at a larger dose than when patients are medically prescribed a MAOI.
I doubt the DMT had much to do with it, as some people smoke several doses over short periods without this leading to SS.

I don't know about the retreats. Maybe they use less MAOI, and more DMT-containing plant to compensate. With less MAOI, the percentage of DMT absorbed is lower. But with a higher quantity of DMT, you should get to the same experience.
Or maybe I was just unlucky; or maybe there's something I just don't know.
Anyway, you really don't want SS, so don't rush. It's a case of Better safe than sorry.

- I think that harmine and harmaline are the only alkaloids in Syrian rue that can give you SS. And therefore, the risk should be the same from the extracted crystals
But I'm not a chemist; so take anything I say with caution. I'm only sharing my personal experience. Maybe other bluelighters will have more to say about this.

- Oh yeah, it shines under a blacklight. I did an extraction and went to a party just after. I looked like a dalmatian.
You may want to take a shower or three first

 

[Didgital]

I looked like a dalmatian.

LMAO def been there my friend. Hands all glowing/stained blue under UV

Eating the extractions instead of the plants/brew brings the risk of vomiting from close to 100% to close to almost zero.
It's also less unpleasant to take. I find the taste so disgusting that I developed a gag reflex, and I just can't drink the brew anymore.
And you only need to do the extraction once for many doses and keep it in something no larger than a matchbox, instead of brewing a large volume every time.
Depending on your situation, it may also be convenient to have for storing (takes no place in the fridge) and transportation. I was able to take what I had with me when I moved abroad, which wouldn't have been possible with the plants.

Would say yes to all of this.

 

[scabbard]

Yesterday I tried 1 gram of rue and 2.9g of mushrooms, along with a bit of cannabis. I ended up practically destroying the room I was in, knocking over all of the furniture and screaming at the top of my lungs wrestling around on the floor. Then I ran out of the building and ripped my shirt off and curled up in a ball on the porch, then went back into the room and peed my pants and had cosmic farts, all the while trying, partially successfully, to work through some of my internal dysfunction.

Do you think just 1 gram of Rue could have potentiated the trip to that extent? I've definitely had profound and highly energetic experiences on mushrooms previously but this one seemed a bit extreme.

 

[iom]

Do you think just 1 gram of Rue could have potentiated the trip to that extent? I've definitely had profound and highly energetic experiences on mushrooms previously but this one seemed a bit extreme.

Yes. A potentiation factor of 2-3X is typical. I recommend starting with 1/4 your normal dose when combining with MAOI. Sorry you had such a rough time, and I hope everything is alright.

 

[scabbard]

Thanks @iom that's nice of you to say. I'm no stranger to difficult trips. Rolling around and screaming and wrestling with the furniture was a healthy thing, a release of energy, but there was also this internal battle going on where my ego was resisting and that prevented me from fully expressing that energy which is what made things challenging and somewhat traumatic.

Good to know that the rue probably potentiated things. I figured that a gram wouldn't do much since other commenters were recommending 3+ grams, but I figured I'd at least give it a trial run and it does seem like it had an effect.

 

[Didgital]

Yesterday I tried 1 gram of rue and 2.9g of mushrooms, along with a bit of cannabis. I ended up practically destroying the room I was in, knocking over all of the furniture and screaming at the top of my lungs wrestling around on the floor. Then I ran out of the building and ripped my shirt off and curled up in a ball on the porch, then went back into the room and peed my pants and had cosmic farts, all the while trying, partially successfully, to work through some of my internal dysfunction.

Do you think just 1 gram of Rue could have potentiated the trip to that extent? I've definitely had profound and highly energetic experiences on mushrooms previously but this one seemed a bit extreme.

Its not the rue nearly as much as your mushroom dose.

Rue only goes so far in that it deactivates MAO, but then aside from its mild psychoactivity which apparently gets dysphoric/uncomftorable as you up dosage (this due to high harmine content?), its NOT responsible for the strong psychedelic effects.

Without MAO tho, your body totally unprotected from psilocin.

With rue.. your 2.9g turned into something like 9-12g... which is OBE territory...

-----
Most ppl i know that combine rue w mushrooms... the dosage is more like 2-3g rue, 1-1.5g (max) mushroom.

They tell me this is like eating +3.5g and last longer which is why ive never tried it. Personally i wouldnt eat more than .5g mushroom if i was on an MAOI.

--TLDR you need enough rue to fully deactive MAO and then establish mushroom dose from there.

 

[scabbard]

I realize that the effects were not directly from the rue, but from the potentiation of the mushrooms due to the MAO inhibition from the rue.
To be honest, OBE's are pretty common for me on 2.5g of mushrooms, without rue. I guess there's OBE and there's OBE, but I've definitely had plenty of experiences with merging into the surroundings, at least for a little bit on sub 3g of mushrooms.

Didn't realize that 3g psilocybin would turn into 9-12 though with rue in the mix. I had read many trip reports to get a sense of where to start, and you're right, most people were typically dosing around 1.5g of shrooms when combining with Rue. I thought that since I was only taking 1g of Rue that it wouldn't have the full potentiation effect. Hard to know how much Rue is enough to fully deactivate the MAO. Maybe a gram was enough.

If just 1g Rue was enough to fully inhibit MAO, why would anyone take 3 times that much, especially given that it only increases unpleasant effects?

 

[iom]

You were hoping to only get "half-pregnant" on your MAOIs? I guess you learned a hard lesson there. Clearly 1g of your rue was enough for you. Alkaloid concentrations vary between plants, so while 1g is sometimes enough to fully inhibit MAO-A, using 3g makes it more certain. As for whether the effects of additional rue are unpleasant, that's a bit more of a subjective call I think (at least before the dose gets too high).

 

[Didgital]

This ayahuasca is pretty interesting stuff.

Yes it is fascinating. What's also super wild to me, the Bannisterious cappi plant, we really don't even know how long they've been using it south america. What is known or believed is that the amazonian people were likely taking bannisterious caapi before they ever knew about DMT. As I said, traditionally they would use the caapi to determine if another plant was a "good" plant or a "bad" plant. Somewhere along the way they took caapi with a DMT plant and tripped balls. How many people died, eating cappi and strange plants... I would wager more than a few over the ages.

So to me, the most fascinating thing about ayahuasca is how the indigenous people discovered it.

I also really do like this thread, but it is almost more about rue than it is ayahuasca and so I don't love the title..

 

[ex-amine]

Yes it is fascinating. What's also super wild to me, the Bannisterious cappi plant, we really don't even know how long they've been using it south america. What is known or believed is that the amazonian people were likely taking bannisterious caapi before they ever knew about DMT. As I said, traditionally they would use the caapi to determine if another plant was a "good" plant or a "bad" plant. Somewhere along the way they took caapi with a DMT plant and tripped balls. How many people died, eating cappi and strange plants... I would wager more than a few over the ages.

So to me, the most fascinating thing about ayahuasca is how the indigenous people discovered it.

I also really do like this thread, but it is almost more about rue than it is ayahuasca and so I don't love the title..

Say you and your family and anchestors have lived inside the jungle for generations, eventually the knowledge gets past on that that plant taste nice with wild boar and the other well with fish, but also that if you cut yourself you can use the sap of that plant overthere to help against the bleeding and infections.
Then there is this 1 vine that helps against having a bad mood or as we might call it 'depression'. this ofcourse is B.Caapi.
B.Caapi was used as an anti-depressive (what MAOI's are) probably way before the combination ayahuasca was known.

At a point in time someone who had taken B.Caapi as an anti-depressant/mood-enhancer got or made a brew with a DMT containing plant in it.. and probably felt like hoffman but without the bicycle ride..but eventually figured out it was the combination of these plants that did the trick.
I am almost certain that this person was not the first one.. but that this knowlegde was lost several times before making it into culture.
(source : discussions with C.Ratch in early 2000's)

 

[Didgital]

Say you and your family and anchestors have lived inside the jungle for generations, eventually the knowledge gets past on that that plant taste nice with wild boar and the other well with fish, but also that if you cut yourself you can use the sap of that plant overthere to help against the bleeding and infections.
Then there is this 1 vine that helps against having a bad mood or as we might call it 'depression'. this ofcourse is B.Caapi
B.Caapi was used as an anti-depressive (what MAOI's are) probably way before the combination ayahuasca was known.

At a point in time someone who had taken B.Caapi as an anti-depressant/mood-enhancer got or made a brew with a DMT containing plant in it.. and probably felt like hoffman but without the bicycle ride..but eventually figured out it was the combination of these plants that did the trick.
I am almost certain that this person was not the first one.. but that this knowlegde was lost several times before making it into culture.
(source : discussions with C.Ratch in early 2000's)

There is no written history and even oral history is lacking regarding the original use of Caapi so we don't truly know why they were taking it in the first place. Even if we assume they were taking Caapi for mood boosting effects, it is VERY likely they would have discovered it's unique pharmacology before taking a DMT plant. There are tribes down there that do take Caapi and they don't take a DMT plant.

It's also kinda wild because ayahuasca is taken with so many different types of DMT plants that grow in different regions of south america. Like you could bring diploterys leaves to northern colombia and they wouldn't recognize that plant but they might recognize a psychotria sp. That tells me they were eating Caapi with lots of different plants (maybe to find the DMT plants?) but also to learn about plants in general.