Health Making Ayahausca

[iom]

---One interesting fact but not relevant to the convo is the Kichwa pride themselves on being able to take small amounts and still have a strong experience. This is in contrast to the Cofan, who take so much that they don't know which way is up or down. They also taught me that the purpose of Ayahuasca (the vine itself) is not to induce a trip, but rather to get rid of bad energy (purge) as well as enhance your relationship with other plants. It's not for the visions. Say you take ayahuasca and then you take a small amount of some unknown plant. You have a terrible experience (maybe there's poisonous compounds in that plant). Ayahuasca is telling you not to eat that plant. In this way, the tribal people were able to fine tune their diet.

This is fascinating! On my first trip, the DMT effects were actually delayed until 2 hours in (despite drinking the caapi / DMT plants 15 minutes apart), and I was able to enjoy effects from just a vine until then. I had less than 30 g, given that a fair amount was lost when I foolishly tried to use baking soda to "neutralize the acid". On that dose I felt a kind of enhanced spiritual awareness of plants and animals both.

---DMT plants I've taken with Ayahuasca

I know it's not a jungle plant, but you never tried Mimosa Hostilis? Be warned, I've never drank anything so vile. It made the ayahuasca taste like sweet tea. It also kicks very hard. I did have one trip with psychotrria viridis, and aside from being a low dose, it seemed a lot smoother.

True, but as far as plant based MAOis, bannisterious and penganum are the most widely used. I actually MUCH prefer syrian rue as it doesn't contain the level of saponins that cappi has. Saponins tend to create a lot of foam in acidic environments (ie your stomach) and you are wayyyyyyyy more likely to be puking. The rue I don't get that, tho I almost always purge (i count dry heaving, crying, and even sweating profusely as a form of purge) I also do not find it sedating. Again I try to aim my dose for just MAO inhibition. Anything more may lead to the less desireable effects.

Interesting. For some reason, I don't seem to get much if any nausea from caapi alone in doses up to 50g. The two times I vomited were with 80+ mg DMT, one of which wasn't until around 3 hours into the trip.

I dunno. I've taken bannisterious cappi by itself with no DMT plants, and got minimal effects that I could just as easily call placebo. I would only get minimal visuals if I was puffing strongly on mupacho (nicotania rustica) and it would wear off within 1 minute.

I had a female friend who I prepared ayahuasca for, and she started with a "standard" 30g dose of caapi. (Back then at least, many people regarded 30g as a kind of minimum or starter dose.) I'm glad we did separate brews because she felt the caapi so strongly she turned down the DMT entirely. She started puking like crazy, which she hadn't expected because she said she never vomited and couldn't even recall having done so. The visions overwhelmed her, and between the multiple puking sessions, she was just completely gone. The intense visions continued for about 8 hours until she came down enough to get some sleep. For her, this was a major life-changing experience, way beyond anything she'd had on mushrooms.

Another thing they taught me, is to absolutely NOT advertise that you're taking ayahuasca or do it in public. It is kind of a secret ceremony. Their reasoning would be that while you are tripping you are less able to defend yourself, not only physically, but spiritually. Possibly a jealous/rival shaman will attack you with energetic darts etc.. The amazon basin is not historically known for it's friendliness.

No doubt! I relied on a friend/sitter to choose a place in a "natural" environment. He led me on a green belt bike trail and then into a long empty irrigation ditch lined with old cottonwoods. That was when the effects started hitting very hard and fast. Not long after, the sun started setting and a front started blowing in (this was in late April), which caused it to become much colder. We walked on some open undeveloped land where I could see cars driving past and then past a office building. That was when I had to puke, which I did in some bushes in the parking lot. After that, I pretty much lost the ability to visually process my surroundings but somehow was able to keep following him, which took a lot of nagging on his part. I think he led us back to the bike path and then across college avenue (the main street) near downtown, into the neighborhood where he lived, and finally back to his house. By that point, I was unbelievably fucked up, and he said he was extremely worried that I would attract unwanted attention and we'd get fucked with by strangers or cops or something. Fortunately, I made it back to his house safely, and after several minutes lying on the floor trying to figure out reality, everything suddenly began to make sense again. I came down very fast, and when I approached some of his roommates, they cowered from me in fear because I had apparently scared the shit out of all of them by how fucked up I was.

Anyway, lessons learned, eh?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Interesting -

...she felt the caapi so strongly she turned down the DMT entirely. She started puking like crazy, which she hadn't expected because she said she never vomited and couldn't even recall having done so. The visions overwhelmed her, and between the multiple puking sessions, she was just completely gone. The intense visions continued for about 8 hours until she came down enough to get some sleep. For her, this was a major life-changing experience, way beyond anything she'd had on mushrooms.

It reminds me of this:

This is something a lot of people don’t get. Ayahuasca is not simple orally activated DMT. It is the dream consciousness effects of the harmalas that are at play in ayahuasca. In order to experience lucid dreams from harmine without DMT, you need to practice a lot. But once you know how to do it, you don’t need DMT added to it anymore, unless you want the extra visual depth that DMT adds to the dreams.​

​

So, “DMT Or Ayahuasca?”, well that question is a personal question. Some people prefer DMT-less ayahuasca. Some people prefer just orally activated DMT. Some people prefer ayahuasca with a side order of DMT. Some people prefer the truly bazaar effects of smoked DMT alone.​

​

My personal opinion is that DMT alone is FUN and can be quite frightening. It’s like a roller coaster ride and I like roller coasters. But don’t expect a deep meaningful life changing experience from it. Its pure visual FUN and nothing more. If I want a more meaningful experience I’d use an oral ayahuasca extract​

 

[doubledog]

Imo Caapi is superior to Rue in effects, so I would recommend to try it.

There are online sources of sustainable harvested (grown) Caapi afaik. In Europe at least.

Good luck!

 

[Esperighanto]

grabs a flask and a condenser

Tell me about it bro, I haven't got my lab set up where I live now and it fucking kills me, soon enough though I will be a homeowner so I can actually build a serious lab, Schlenk and fume hood handmade, may the gods look down favorably upon my dumb ass.

Would I have to buy pure harmine and pure harmaline to do this, or are there other plants that contain only one or the other?

Didgital already mentioned Passiflora incarnata being pretty straight on containing just tetrahydroharmine, but up until like a month ago there was a super well known clearnet vendor who was moving them cheap, in large quantities, and at shockingly high degrees of purity. No clue what happened to him, hope he's doing well though, bro has changed many lives from the great state of Texas if I recall correctly.

I still have to check if it is indeed in FB form. However, even if my stomach will digest the salt vs FB form in the same way, the salt form of a substance would be less potent by weight so I'd need more of it to achieve the desired effect, isn't that correct?

Yeah, Didg also covered the molar weight stuff and in general it's good to keep common salt forms memorized as what percentage of the product weight they take up relative to something else. This will vary substance-to-substance too, given each one's freebase already having a varying molecular weight.

Would psychedelics fall into the category of monoamine releasers? Are you saying to avoid 5MeO-DMT for 5 days after taking an MAOI?

Uhhhhh interesting question, some psychedelics are monoamine releasers, and some non-psychedelic monoamine releasers are somewhat "adjacent" to the psychedelic experience, yet I do not attribute psychedelia to any one thing. CDP-Choling+Galantamine, as well as Heimia salicifolia (sinicuichi) induce what I refer to as "cholinergic psychedelia", which is its own thing imo. Blue lotus and harmalas make a hell of a trip too for reasons I don't quite understand.

Brutal in what way?

Rue is one of the most nauseating MAOIs I've used, and it doses steeply so you don't need a lot. I do know someone who broke just over 100g of rue as well as a damn near suicidal dosage of caffeine when we were in college though and he was fine, though that guy is also a drug consumer of similar caliber to myself.

Say you take ayahuasca and then you take a small amount of some unknown plant.

It's fascinating to me that you view it this way, I view it as a friend who acts as a sort of catalyst for greater connection with other substances, but also I find a ton of value in just harmala alkaloids on their own. Do you find a similar value in harmalas as you do in something like psilocybin?

---DMT plants I've taken with Ayahuasca

Dyploterus carybrena - Chaliponga (Def the strongest and weirdest, my preference) Very 3d, hard to tell what's real
Psychotria viridis - Chacruna - Super colorful. I was throwing up rainbows while 2D jaguars were jumping into my heart
Psychotria carthagensis - Amyruca - was the weakest of the 3 I took in south america. Maybe it was the high concentration of NMT, but made me physically sensitive without many visuals
Acacia confusa - 300mg - extremely warm feeling, visions became all encompassing but never dark or scary. Blacked out and shit the bed.

It's odd to say but out of these four our ranking is exactly identical top to bottom. I found Diploterys cabrerana to be profoundly surreal and to have a sort of "holograms over everything" look going on that I really fucked hard with. Psychotria viridis was the most neon, pastel, upbeat sort of deal though, the rainbow vomit is such a common experience among ayahuasca enthusiasts at this point it's hilarious. I found Psychotria carthagenesis was shockingly weak compared to viridis samples I was getting at the time, but I could also smoke carthagensis on its own and get an adequate effect which I did not understand. Acacia confusa holds the record for me as personally making me feel the deepest into the Twilight Zone that anything ever has. It's not even bad, Everything just becomes mad peculiar. It's a real quizzical feeling thing.

Have you ever explored Phalaris grass? I have a bunch of Phalaris aquatica seeds and while there are reports of gramine in the grass, idk man I bet I could fix that with some post-processing of the crop in the laboratory.

though it has been described as the cadillac of beta carbolines.

It is, this description is accurate. If you triple the dose relative to harmaline, it's the best MAOI I can think of, Passiflora incarnata and LSD is the best MAOI + Serotonergic experience I'm aware of.

They used to be available commercially on certain very well known legal marketplaces, I don't know if that's still the case.

I miss the cowboy.

Otherwise it would run towards the mouthpiece

Bro I must advise doing an ethanolic infusion of the cannabis, dessicating the hell out of it and then smoking that with a series of copper screens twisted as to not easily let liquid through yet to permit airflow. I have even smoked THCa diamonds off of a thick enough layer of screens to quite a bit of success, just not huge ones, the physics of it demand modesty.

but as most chemists know, DMT does not love to be paired with HCL.

I am very curious if you have any idea what it is about some molecules where they prefer to be in certain salt forms over others. Is there some molecular dynamics text I could find on this? Because so far I've been shit out of luck on getting answers here other than shrugs.

I have this crazy fucked up mix of 50/50 5-meo-DMT/5-meo-mipt. I didn't have a good way of separating the two, but i figured the 5-meo-dmt will get metabolized and the 5-meo-mipt will form the salt. Totally works lol.

Damn the 5-MeO-DMT/5-MeO-MiPT caught me off guard. How is that experientially? I've mixed 5-MeO-DiPT with a whole host of reckless bullshit, but never an MAOI, 5-MeO-DMT, or MDMA. 5-MeO-DiPT and 25I-NBOMe was beautiful but quite taxing physically, I felt like I was running a marathon the whole time. 5-MeO-DiPT with meth and vaporized 25E-NBOH was also a bit of a heart pounder relative to my normal NBOMe+meth experiences.

Fantastic thread, should be stickied.

I agree yet I have no idea how to do this, I will attempt to figure it out though.

Still smoking today, even this moment.

Fascinating dude, I just wish I could get it to work. I can chief down cigarette after cigarette to no avail, box mods feel like fucking placebos. I can get it to sort of resonate/vibrate in my skull though if I take a concerningly huge rip off of a box mod and hold it all in my sinuses, so that's something I guess. My fiance is the kind of tobacco enthusiast who breaks down every cigarette into a 14mm bowl and smokes that shit with any of our innumerable bongs. Not mixed with cannabis, not even infused with other shit, just going for the fattest rips and the least smoke wasted pretty much. This white man could outsmoke any Han Chinese supersmoker I ever used to hang out with, in college I'd notice the non-Han students might bring a vape or a pack of cigarettes, but the Han researchers all just kept a carton in their car and chainsmoked in there. Sometimes the tobacco resin that gets leftover becomes the unintentional target of my lighter though (especially back when I smoked 22 sheets of 50mcg/tab MDMB-4en-PINACA), I associated the first intensely tobacco-infused experience as "feeling like the movie Creepshow" so now he and I just refer to the tobacco/spice combo as "smoking a creepshow". How would you experientially characterize N. rustica vs other varieties?

For me personally I'm typically a proponent of not being super accurate about this stuff, in particular because no one know what dose is going to be most helpful/therapeutic for a given person on a given day. Trying to pinpoint it down to an exact science is not helpful. I don't want to be stupid about it, like I wouldn't just reach into a bag of mushrooms and grab a handful and hope for the best, but that's also what I like about mushrooms, the psilocybin content varies from strain to strain and varies depending on the part of the mushroom that's ingested, so I trust that I'll get whatever I get with the experience, knowing that whatever number is reading out on the scale isn't going to tell me what's going to happen.

As a man who used to skate through the city eating pockets full of mushrooms, sometimes dried sometimes a harvest fresher than an hour, washed off and pocketed for a ride, you are spot-the-fuck-on about the wild variance in batches of mushrooms. I think that stems can be scaled up in mass to be equipotent for caps of the same batch, at least it seems like it, the degree to which I have been able to give people mushrooms and not say jack shit about their characteristics though and get a report back that perfectly reaffirms initial reports is uh, it's shocking enough to leave me wide open to the likely possibility that there's something else going on at a nuanced level between mushroom species and varieties, even with meticulously controlled and identical growth conditions and coming off of two cuts of the same agar. I did a lot of ayahuasca in a super different environment from Didgital, I was living in Portland (Maine) as a salaried software engineer, spending most of my time outside of work tripping, doing stupid hoodrat shit and/or being a local presence at the skatepark. That city is full of fascinating entities, but god damn was it a dangerous period of my life. It was an environment that led to me getting in a knife-to-knife conflict when someone pulled a blade on me late at night and I decided "fuck it, we can both die tonight" and just ran at them with my blade out.

I found my most rewarding experiences to always stem from the coadministration of harmalas and LSD though, and that experience has a dose response curve that makes ayahuasca, pharmahuasca and psilohuasca seem very gentle, relatively. Lysergahuasca should never be attempted with hawaiian baby woodrose seeds, that likely caused serotonin syndrome or something adjacent in me twice, and boy can I tank some foolish combinations and doses of drugs, that one almost got me. It wasn't quite as bad as the bupropion/LSD/harmaline/THH combo I accidentally did after impulsively "remembering to take my antidepressant". I'm glad more people are getting on the "fuck measuring the dose, vibe it out" train, as it's really the only logical place to be given batch variance and interpersonal/subjective variances.

 

[scabbard]

I love your stories @Esperighanto.

So here's another question. I was reading this thread on another forum:

Syrian Rue is Amazing

Yesterday I consumed a 5 g tea of Syrian rue boiled for a bit and with some vinegar( to better extract the alkaloids), I drank the tea and the effects sta...

www.actualized.org

Many people on this thread are cautioning about the use of Syrian Rue with other psychedelics. Some say it's dangerous to take it with acid, others say the contrary which is that it dulls the effects. Then others are saying to be careful taking it with psilocybin or DMT because it potentiates the effects.

I've never heard anyone voice any concerns about taking Ayahuasca, yet somehow taking Syrian Rue with DMT is something to be concerned about. From a basic chemistry standpoint, isn't it essentially the same thing, combining an MAOI with oral DMT? Why is Ayahuasca safe but Syrian rue + DMT/psilocybin is potentially dangerous?

 

[xdrc]

It is not unsafe. Syrian Rue + DMT is a classic way to use DMT orally and perfectly safe (in so far that ayahuasca is safe). You can combine Syrian Rue with vaped DMT too, of course dosages are lower. Afaik psilocin also gets potentiated by Syrian Rue, so some care with dosing is needed. I'd probably be a little bit more careful about combining with phenethylamine psychedelics, and would never combine it with entactogens, stimulants, SSRIs, etc.

 

[Didgital]

On my first trip, the DMT effects were actually delayed until 2 hours

I had a delayed onset once as well. I chalk it up to having a pretty full belly, and a nearby freakout in the beginning ceremony which kind of brought me back to reality. This chick basically became possessed and the 4 ft tall kichwa midwives i mentioned were trying to get her out, was intense as the freaking out lady was a large lady and kept throwing them off. Basically when everyone was starting to come down, i was just starting to come up. That experience was a good 7 hours with a single dose.

I know it's not a jungle plant, but you never tried Mimosa Hostilis?

Oddly I've not. I've extracted hundred's of kgs of the rootbark and have plenty on hand. I am actually more interested in trying SYNTHETIC dmt with an ayahuasca/syrian rue at the moment. Mainly to see the difference. Fun unrelated fact. If a DMT synthesis fails, it often cyclizes back into itself to create a beta-carboline which is an MAOI.

 

[xdrc]

I am actually more interested in trying SYNTHETIC dmt with an ayahuasca/syrian rue at the moment. Mainly to see the difference. Fun unrelated fact. If a DMT synthesis fails, it often cyclizes back into itself to create a beta-carboline which is an MAOI.

I'm a bit weary of 2-methyltryptoline. I am not sure if it may be partially oxidised to a carbolinium ion and being a risk factor for developing Parkinson.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304394085900163?via%3Dihub

Funny that you say that though, I am experimenting with synthetic DMT currently, and I took syrian rue (without anything else) for the first time recently. I think I'll start with "vapourhuasca" however. I have zero experience with plant-derived DMT though.

 

[Didgital]

I'm a bit weary of 2-methyltryptoline.

Me too! I wasn't necessarily suggesting one take the nmtryptoline (I'm impressed w your nomenclature btw!) I did sorta wonder if it would work as an MAOi. A friend told me some of these beta carbolines could be neurotoxic, but pretty sure they were injecting it directly into rodent brains..

Read that paper so many times and certainly fascinated by the whole story, but please tell me how it applies? Kid was trying to make MPPP* right? a synthetic opioid that he overheated?
I see the structural similarity, but I somehow suspect that the indole nucleus which is not present in the MPTP would significantly change the pharmacology though I am no neuroscientist or pharmacologist so I wouldn't know. I'm worried more about the lack of any research on the n-methyltryptoline more than the structural similarity.

n-methyltryptoline


MPTP


If I could find what tryptoline would metabolize into, I'd have a more solid opinion, but alas, I can't really find much..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0306452281901639

taken from AI
"Harmine primarily metabolizes into harmol through 7-O-demethylation, along with other metabolites created via oxidation and conjugation (glucuronide or sulphate) in the liver."
"DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) is rapidly metabolized primarily by the enzyme monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) into indoleacetic acid (IAA). Other metabolic pathways, including CYP2D6, break it down into indole-3-acetic acid, DMT-N-oxide (DMT-NO), and N-methyltryptamine (NMT"

Just seems the indole nucleus is pretty stable...

 

[xdrc]

I actually linked the wrong paper, I meant to link this one:

N-Methyltetrahydro-β-carboline analogs of 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) neurotoxin are oxidized to neurotoxic β-carbolinium cations by heme peroxidases

2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (2-Me-THβC) and 2,9-dimethyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (2,9-diMe-THβC) are naturally occurring analogs of…

www.sciencedirect.com

Funny that the paper I actually linked says in the abstract: "To explore whether the β-carboline also has neurotoxic effects, owl monkeys were treated daily with MPTP or 2M-THBC. Acute behavioral similarities were seen, but 2M-THBC did not induce persistent parkinsonism, nor did it cause apparent loss of nigral cells." I'll certainly avoid the impurity, but maybe it is less severe than I assume. I need to do a lot more reading on this topic.

On the topic of MPTP, I think MPPP is actually a risk factor as well. There is no way the acetate ester does not (partially) hydrolyse and then eliminate in the body towards MPTP. The problem with MPTP is that the effects are cumulative, so I think a habit of MPPP alone would not be a great idea either.

 

[Didgital]

I actually linked the wrong paper, I meant to link this one:

N-Methyltetrahydro-β-carboline analogs of 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) neurotoxin are oxidized to neurotoxic β-carbolinium cations by heme peroxidases

2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (2-Me-THβC) and 2,9-dimethyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (2,9-diMe-THβC) are naturally occurring analogs of…

www.sciencedirect.com

Funny that the paper I actually linked says in the abstract: "To explore whether the β-carboline also has neurotoxic effects, owl monkeys were treated daily with MPTP or 2M-THBC. Acute behavioral similarities were seen, but 2M-THBC did not induce persistent parkinsonism, nor did it cause apparent loss of nigral cells." I'll certainly avoid the impurity, but maybe it is less severe than I assume. I need to do a lot more reading on this topic.

On the topic of MPTP, I think MPPP is actually a risk factor as well. There is no way the acetate ester does not (partially) hydrolyse and then eliminate in the body towards MPTP. The problem with MPTP is that the effects are cumulative, so I think a habit of MPPP alone would not be a great idea either.

Sasha would agree agree with you. I think he said prolly not great idea to take any compound habitually

 

[Didgital]

Yeah looks like the metabolite has a unstable and charged nitrogen unlike beta carbolines. Who knows?

I dont plan on trying it anytime soon tho

 

[arrall]

Tell me about it bro, I haven't got my lab set up where I live now and it fucking kills me, soon enough though I will be a homeowner so I can actually build a serious lab, Schlenk and fume hood handmade, may the gods look down favorably upon my dumb ass.

that’s awesome, enjoy and make some cool stuff

 

[Khacorrat]

Hello,

I'm not sure it's the right topic, but the recent intervention about harmala alkaloids I put it here.

I recently tumble into Syrian rue and Harmala/Harmaline. From what I read here and there (erowid, dmt-nexus) I can't seem to find coherent information. Or maybe I do not understand it.

From what I gathered, it can be use with DMT or psylocibin mushrooms. But I see here people like Ismene or Esperighanto who seems to combine it well with LSD.

For my part, I will be interested to use it on its own to discover its potential. I even thought do an extraction then separate harmine and harmaline. I would also like to combine it with LSD.

So basically, which resources do you find useful to understand this topic? I plan to start reading "The secret chief" as soon as I got some time to do it.
What can I expect from harmine/harmaline on their own?
How it is combine with LSD? I read it expand the duration of the trip, but in the same time I also read that it's like a more gentle trip.

Thanks for your insights!

 

[iom]

I had a delayed onset once as well. I chalk it up to having a pretty full belly, and a nearby freakout in the beginning ceremony which kind of brought me back to reality. This chick basically became possessed and the 4 ft tall kichwa midwives i mentioned were trying to get her out, was intense as the freaking out lady was a large lady and kept throwing them off. Basically when everyone was starting to come down, i was just starting to come up. That experience was a good 7 hours with a single dose.

My delay occurred despite having not eaten for many hours beforehand. Once the DMT kicked in, the experience itself lasted another 2 hours, not including the intense afterglow.

I've never participated in any "traditional" ceremony, and on the occasion I took ayahusca in a small group, the experience was weak for everyone. (Maybe that was for the best.) I can't imagine having a heavy ayahuasca trip with the commotion of a bunch of strangers around me talking, moaning, puking and/or freaking out. In fact, I find just about any external sensory input to be way too complicated and intense to really deal with. I had one trip within ear-shot of a drum circle, and it was definitely too much at times.

 

[Esperighanto]

How it is combine with LSD? I read it expand the duration of the trip, but in the same time I also read that it's like a more gentle trip.

Lysergahuasca is an all-time favorite of mine. While it is calmer and less "electrifying" than LSD on its own, it feels more like watching that electricity manifest in a maelstrom that surrounds you, while you exist in a supernaturally peaceful eye of the storm. It definitely adds maybe 50% duration to the trip and you need far less LSD than you normally would. If you have any questions about lysergahuasca feel free to ask, I'm probably 30-50 trips deep with it and it's by far the most mystical feeling thing I've ever touched in my life.

Surrounding learning more about harmalas, there's a tragic absence of literature surrounding their practical application in therapeutic contexts. There's obviously the folk applications of Syrian Rue as esfand, or Banisteriopsis caapi as ayahuasca, but many of the most interesting MAOI containing plants that I've encountered were the ones that are unpopular and hard to find, Tetrapterys methystica and Alicia anisopetala are two that come to mind immediately. Large amounts of Passiflora incarnata can also get you there via tetrahydroharmine which is quite interesting, I often included lotus flowers, Passiflora extracts, and coca in ayahuasca brews I'd whip up.

 

[Khacorrat]

Thanks for your answer ! To be honest, it's by reading some of your post where you mention "lysergahuasca" that got me interested, but actually I don't know much about harmala containing plant.

The way you depict it sounds clearly interesting, LSD is by far my psychedelic of choice since I encounter it, and the possibility to modify it seems promising. From what I understand from your description, you're most on the spectator side, right?

Also when you say "far less LSD", you mean like 25 or 50% less ? I know it's only an estimation and I will be really careful whilst trying it. I'm a bit older and wiser than when I start experimenting, so definitely more careful. Also, it sounds even more crazy when you said it's like the most mystical feelings you feel, I read some of your posts on the forum and you definitely have way more experience with psychs (and drugs in general) than me. So this comment really left me wondering how it could be!


About the knowledge about harmalas, I share your view. I can't seem to find consistent information it's crazy. When I look at the trip reports on Erowid, I see peoples taking it on their own and mentioning effets, some others none. In some it's even mix with some "obscure" phenethylamines when in other places it's clearly a don't do combination. Well definitely hard to cope with sure data about it...

From your experience as you seems to had try a lot of harmalas containing plants, is it better to take a plant (e.g: Peganum harmala) or to try to do an extract ?

 

[Esperighanto]

Thanks for your answer ! To be honest, it's by reading some of your post where you mention "lysergahuasca" that got me interested, but actually I don't know much about harmala containing plant.

The way you depict it sounds clearly interesting, LSD is by far my psychedelic of choice since I encounter it, and the possibility to modify it seems promising. From what I understand from your description, you're most on the spectator side, right?

Also when you say "far less LSD", you mean like 25 or 50% less ? I know it's only an estimation and I will be really careful whilst trying it. I'm a bit older and wiser than when I start experimenting, so definitely more careful. Also, it sounds even more crazy when you said it's like the most mystical feelings you feel, I read some of your posts on the forum and you definitely have way more experience with psychs (and drugs in general) than me. So this comment really left me wondering how it could be!


About the knowledge about harmalas, I share your view. I can't seem to find consistent information it's crazy. When I look at the trip reports on Erowid, I see peoples taking it on their own and mentioning effets, some others none. In some it's even mix with some "obscure" phenethylamines when in other places it's clearly a don't do combination. Well definitely hard to cope with sure data about it...

From your experience as you seems to had try a lot of harmalas containing plants, is it better to take a plant (e.g: Peganum harmala) or to try to do an extract ?

You can modify LSD with quite a few things. The way that ayahuasca enthusiasts utilize "adjuncts", there are certainly adjuncts to the LSD experience as well. I find that classic ayahuasca adjuncts like nicotine, passionflower, red/blue/white lotus, and coca tea all worked quite well as LSD adjuncts with similar effects on the experience, and the absence of a potent MAOI in the mix allowed me to play with certain antidepressants alongside LSD that proved to be quite fascinating. D. M. Turner's "The Essential Psychedelic Guide" is where I first read of the combination of Ludiomil alongside LSD, and while I have yet to acquire Ludiomil to try that with, other antidepressants and unexpected pharmaceuticals exhibit super fascinating responses in combination with LSD. Beware using any of those pharmaceuticals if you're utilizing harmalas, just as a heads up. Also woodrose seeds consistently brought me to the brink of death on harmalas, so avoid that also. Heimia salicifolia (sinicuichi) is one of the most fascinating adjuncts, as is galantamine which can be found in snow drop flowers. I have yet to read of anybody else combining either of those with LSD, but both are what I refer to as "cholinergic psychedelics" when used on their own in adequately high amounts. I want to also say that I have no fucking idea if any cholinergic psychedelic is even remotely safe.

When you say I'm most on the spectator side, what do you mean by that? Genuinely curious, just smoked enough weed to be a little grammatically challenged right now. If you're referring to times that I've been a guide through the lysergahuasca experience, I strictly dose alongside people I guide so that we're on the same level throughout the trip. Usually I dose significantly higher than whoever I'm guiding, but that's just because I'm kind of a cryptid to begin with. It's important to always keep upmodulators and downmodulators on hand if you're playing with new things by the way, having a tripkiller on hand is something I'd recommend to all people getting to know lysergahuasca, as far as I'm aware no benzodiazepines interact with MAOIs so maybe keep some Valium on hand. I'd be nervous to try an antipsychotic alongside harmalas given not only the fact that some antipsychotics are close to serotonergics structurally (Lorcaserin vs SCHEMBL5334361 or mCPP being a metabolite of Trazodone), but the non-MAO related actions of harmalas are pretty numerous. There is enzymatic action going on surrounding choline and friends for sure, sinicuichi is amplified noticeably and I suspect that's related but don't know for sure.

When it comes to getting to know harmala containing plants, there are at least a hundred, likely far more, and the majority are profoundly poorly understood. Most exhibit pretty crazy variance in phytochemistry from batch to batch, so learn to feel out low doses the same way you should with other drugs that exhibit high batch variance (like mushrooms). I personally find Syrian Rue to be absolute fucking garbage, the body load knows no bounds and it's so aggressively intense that it throws most people off the right path at some point or another during the trip. Banisteriopsis caapi is the classic for ayahuasca, and I much prefer it, especially in combination with Passiflora incarnata, but these days I mostly just put straight harmaline and harmine in a gel cap so that I can consume an accurately measured dose, but other than accuracy of dose there isn't much reason to favor a pure crystal over the plants.

Harmalas on their own are plenty active, they also can bring activity out of things that you wouldn't expect, Banisteriopsis caapi with blue lotus consistently induces an intense psychedelic state that is not adequately explained by the pharmacology of either one of those plants on their own, in my opinion. I usually would scale dose down by 50% for myself, but often I'd give other people 1/4-1/3 of a standard dose because it really can shake up folks who aren't irondomed. I would guess that if somebody cannot handle a tenstrip of normal blotter off the street (~750ug if quantitatively measured) then they should not experiment with even 20% of that dose alongside 90mg of harmaline. They are similarly intense, though the higher LSD dose is more chaotic or frenetic feeling whereas the lysergahuasca dose would feel a lot more like sitting in a room alongside the gods, profundity in the presence of an overwhelming peace.

Good luck with your lysergahuasca ventures, be sure to report back on how they go!

 

[Khacorrat]

Hmmm, I didn't think about it but you're definitely right! I remember fifteen years ago reading about "ayahuasca" and the different recipes. I will take a look at those adjuncts. Far from lysergahuasca, actually I only mix it with ket, so definitely not the same kind of experience!
By any chance, do you have any references you recommend ?

When you say I'm most on the spectator side, what do you mean by that? Genuinely curious, just smoked enough weed to be a little grammatically challenged right now.

To be honest it's probably because my english is not as good haha. As it's not my first language, I sometimes write not accurately^^
But actually, you respond to my question at the end of your answer!

They are similarly intense, though the higher LSD dose is more chaotic or frenetic feeling whereas the lysergahuasca dose would feel a lot more like sitting in a room alongside the gods, profundity in the presence of an overwhelming peace.

I'll definitely get some Tripkiller to do it properly! I actually had to stock up on them. In the past, I never used/had any, but last time my fiancée should have used one. It's also always better to have some as neither of us uses benzos it will not be risky.

That's good to know about the bodyload of Peganum harmala, I will try it to see and take a look at Banisteriopsis caapi and Passiflora incarnata. But still if I like to try the full extract, for convenience I will probably stick to pure harmine/harmaline.

Yeah, I remember reading about blue lotus but it was a long time ago. By the way, it mades me remember, when we were younger with my best friend at the time. He got some flower who grow wildly there (Mediterannean coast, Europa) and we used to mix them with weed and it had some effects. But I can't tell you the name of this flower, I only remember they were little purple/pink flower. We were so stupid at the time haha

Yeah so probably stick with 1/4 and go up is probably the best way to go!
Lol, I probably couldn't go with a 750µ myself to be honest haha. But thanks for the scale of reference ! It will allows me to tried some low-doses and upscale it with harmalas.

Sure! I will report back when I try it. To be honest, it will probably won't be before a few months, but I will report for sure!

Thanks for your detailed answer Esperighanto!

 

[Esperighanto]

By any chance, do you have any references you recommend ?

I could have sworn I pirated a book called "Ayahuasca Adjuncts" a while back but right now I am at an absolute loss trying to find information about it. In general, reading about pharmacology and learning more about these drugs in general is quite helpful. As far as ayahuasca adjuncts specifically go, look into indigenous practices but beware, mixing something like datura will not lead to a good time.

Yeah, I remember reading about blue lotus but it was a long time ago. By the way, it mades me remember, when we were younger with my best friend at the time. He got some flower who grow wildly there (Mediterannean coast, Europa) and we used to mix them with weed and it had some effects. But I can't tell you the name of this flower, I only remember they were little purple/pink flower. We were so stupid at the time haha

Any other info you could give about region, season, or the plant here would be super helpful, I'm a weirdo about pursuing underdocumented entheogens. Triandrus narcissus was first mentioned here on Bluelight iirc.