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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Benzos Ongoing consumption (indefinite)

billyj

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
103
Hi
I have tried repeatedly to get of benzos (Valium) but the post acute phase is just too unendurable. I take one x 10mg Valium a day, sometimes a second. I have been doing this on and off for about twenty years. I’m 53 and wonder if that is an acceptable dose for the rest of my life or whether I should persevere with withdrawal. Pros of staying on: I actually prefer having a little Valium in my system. Cons: not completely comfortable with resigning to being on them for the rest of my life.
 
Benzo withdrawal is pretty bad but doable. It's much worse than opioid withdraws. But I managed to cold turkey off both. It was a hellish two weeks but by the end of it I felt much better and the second week was much easier than the first.

Have you considered tapering? You could try going down to 5mg a day for a week then down to 2.5mg for a week then try to jump off there. One thing you have going for you is 10mg isn't that high of a dose. When I kicked cold turkey I was coming off about 6mg of xanax a day. I spent a week in a room crawling up the walls but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Benzos are the only drug that I know of besides alcohol where you can get seizures and die from going cold turkey. But given your small dose I don't think that's too big of a concern. We a proper taper you would probably avoid coming close to the type of withdrawal I had to go through.
 
Tried repeatedly to get them prescribed, to take as needed. Never intended to take them daily. Never did when i could buy them from RC dealers. But somehow dr s think that the risk of getting physically addicted is worse then enduring insomnia and stress, even seizure s. Was accused being addicted to Clobazam. Used to prevent seizure s. A benzo with no noticeable effect ime that was 1/ 2 the time not deliverable. So wonder were that medical wisdom came from.

Dr s are not a reliable option. My prescription for ADHD meds get s stopped with random interval s. Assume ably GP question ADHD or the meds have no beneficial effect/ just addicting or recreational ? Just a guess. Extrapolating that to a drug with proven physical dependency. No thank s, to daily dosing till i can secure a surplus.

In case it s stopped. Shortages or by medical twist s. In the RC era it was reliable to obtain 3 day deleivery. And cheap, if my GP would prescribe it for anything other then seizures. It s a pricey prescription in Netherland s, discouragement policy.

Most country s are not that tight but when taking daily i would create a DIY safety net. Either by saving up or buying them elsewhere. But i see no problem taking 10 mg Diazepam daily. 1 st benzo i bought, lingered so long think i could skip a day or maybe 2 between dosing. YMMV.

Can t imagine it being detrimental at that dose. It might be ? emkee.
 
Benzo withdrawal is pretty bad but doable. It's much worse than opioid withdraws. But I managed to cold turkey off both. It was a hellish two weeks but by the end of it I felt much better and the second week was much easier than the first.

Have you considered tapering? You could try going down to 5mg a day for a week then down to 2.5mg for a week then try to jump off there. One thing you have going for you is 10mg isn't that high of a dose. When I kicked cold turkey I was coming off about 6mg of xanax a day. I spent a week in a room crawling up the walls but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Benzos are the only drug that I know of besides alcohol where you can get seizures and die from going cold turkey. But given your small dose I don't think that's too big of a concern. We a proper taper you would probably avoid coming close to the type of withdrawal I had to go through.
Well that is what I decided. I really couldn't manage the symptoms, and have limited myself to 1 x 10mg a day, sometimes a second tablet if I feel like it. I went cold turkey and went completely insane, I think I x 10mg a day then easing off that to half that and easing down off that would be easier. I have gone off them before, I decided to go back on them and do a gentler taper this time.
Tried repeatedly to get them prescribed, to take as needed. Never intended to take them daily. Never did when i could buy them from RC dealers. But somehow dr s think that the risk of getting physically addicted is worse then enduring insomnia and stress, even seizure s. Was accused being addicted to Clobazam. Used to prevent seizure s. A benzo with no noticeable effect ime that was 1/ 2 the time not deliverable. So wonder were that medical wisdom came from.

Dr s are not a reliable option. My prescription for ADHD meds get s stopped with random interval s. Assume ably GP question ADHD or the meds have no beneficial effect/ just addicting or recreational ? Just a guess. Extrapolating that to a drug with proven physical dependency. No thank s, to daily dosing till i can secure a surplus.

In case it s stopped. Shortages or by medical twist s. In the RC era it was reliable to obtain 3 day deleivery. And cheap, if my GP would prescribe it for anything other then seizures. It s a pricey prescription in Netherland s, discouragement policy.

Most country s are not that tight but when taking daily i would create a DIY safety net. Either by saving up or buying them elsewhere. But i see no problem taking 10 mg Diazepam daily. 1 st benzo i bought, lingered so long think i could skip a day or maybe 2 between dosing. YMMV.

Can t imagine it being detrimental at that dose. It might be ? emkee.
Yes it's not a huge dose, I don't really feel any different with or without it - until withdrawal sets in. It just makes things easier and isn't really abuse. I will keep trying.
 
Tried repeatedly to get them prescribed, to take as needed. Never intended to take them daily. Never did when i could buy them from RC dealers. But somehow dr s think that the risk of getting physically addicted is worse then enduring insomnia and stress, even seizure s. Was accused being addicted to Clobazam. Used to prevent seizure s. A benzo with no noticeable effect ime that was 1/ 2 the time not deliverable. So wonder were that medical wisdom came from.

Dr s are not a reliable option. My prescription for ADHD meds get s stopped with random interval s. Assume ably GP question ADHD or the meds have no beneficial effect/ just addicting or recreational ? Just a guess. Extrapolating that to a drug with proven physical dependency. No thank s, to daily dosing till i can secure a surplus.

In case it s stopped. Shortages or by medical twist s. In the RC era it was reliable to obtain 3 day deleivery. And cheap, if my GP would prescribe it for anything other then seizures. It s a pricey prescription in Netherland s, discouragement policy.

Most country s are not that tight but when taking daily i would create a DIY safety net. Either by saving up or buying them elsewhere. But i see no problem taking 10 mg Diazepam daily. 1 st benzo i bought, lingered so long think i could skip a day or maybe 2 between dosing. YMMV.

Can t imagine it being detrimental at that dose. It might be ? emkee.
And yes I agree, especially with albums very long half life. I can skip a day and have no problems. Might be way to taper like that.
 
Have you heard about a doctor called Ashton? She developed a benzo detox method known as "Ashton manual", wich is pretty much the bible of safe benzo cesation.
You can find it online no problem, I strongly advise you to do so. She noticed that short acting benzos, like xanax, were difficult to work with in a tapering process, so she switched her patients from whatever bzd that they were using to an equivalent dose of diazepam, and then started the taper from there.

You will skip this first process as you already are on diazepam, and you are on a very reasonable dose. Ashton's method takes time, it's about a very gradual taper: it decreases your dose little by little and then gives you enough time for you to addapt to the new dose, before even attempting the next drope.
Take your time and be patient, cause 10mg may not be a big dose, but you have been on the stuff forever and that's also a important factor.
 
Yes, excellent advice from Senor Moreno there.

I went cold turkey and went completely insane,

Yeah absolutely do NOT cold turkey benzos after 20 years of daily use, even if the dosage was low. The length of use makes a huge difference to the withdrawals - this is something us people who are getting old find out. Even though Billyj is on a very reasonable therapeutic dose, the duration of use is significant and that matters.

Go slow. Check out the Ashton manual, as suggested above. I think it's worth getting off them, personally. You may find that there are aspects of yourself which have been muted for a very long time. You may become more complete.
 
Thanks for the heads up. It’s very appreciated. The Ashton taper sounds like a good way forward I will try it over the next few months. Being on them for so long is a factor I didnt consider and I just couldn’t operate at all for a couple of weeks so went back on them.
 
Benzo withdrawal is pretty bad but doable. It's much worse than opioid withdraws. But I managed to cold turkey off both. It was a hellish two weeks but by the end of it I felt much better and the second week was much easier than the first.

Have you considered tapering? You could try going down to 5mg a day for a week then down to 2.5mg for a week then try to jump off there. One thing you have going for you is 10mg isn't that high of a dose. When I kicked cold turkey I was coming off about 6mg of xanax a day. I spent a week in a room crawling up the walls but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Benzos are the only drug that I know of besides alcohol where you can get seizures and die from going cold turkey. But given your small dose I don't think that's too big of a concern. We a proper taper you would probably avoid coming close to the type of withdrawal I had to go through.
I've done it twice in my life. Tapering I mean
From 100mg of valium a day to 1 mg per day over a year . The simple key to coming off benzos is patience lots and lots of patience. It is possible but is extremely difficult. I personally used a combination of other cns depressants titrating down along with the valium
You find a balance that works for you ..you stabilise for months if nessicarry then you begin to lower again ..find an acceptable level (allowing for some unpleasantness) stabilise and repeat . It's not slow it's not comfortable and it sucks .
But it IS possible .
I'm a poly drug user of over 30 years I've tried almost everything and got hooked on a couple I'm still battling every day . But gave up iv opiates that's something I'm pretty proud of . So take heart and try .
 
Just as an update for anyone who may be interested: I’m now down to 5mg a day. 5mg at 2pm every day. Last month was 7.5mg. It’s a little faster than the Ashton method but so far so good. The best thing is knowing I really don’t want them - if it wasn’t for the Cold turkey horrors I’d cut them off right now. I think that helps too.
 
Back in 2017 I was hooked on Alprazolam, I was taking 8mg a day! I discovered them on the DW and when my "vendor" disappeared so did my Alprazolam supply. It took me about 4 weeks to feel normal again. The withdrawal symptoms were so bad I thought I was going to die!
 
Honestly i dont really see a problem with staying on 10mg's of valium a day forever. Thats not a high dose at all.
 
I say, if it´s not broken, don´t fix it. We often see the trajectory of Benzodiazepine usage slowly moving in a bad direction for most people. When we talk about ¨problem usage¨ we aren´t referring generally to someone who has managed to keep their dose and frequency consistent for decades. It is usually a more fluctuating pattern. If you don´t experience any side effects that are harming your quality of life, then I don´t see a major need to get off of these drugs. You´re a bit older, I´d argue a lot of the harder parts of your life are in the rearview mirror. If you need to take a small amount of Diazepam (Valium) to feel normal and you´re able to moderate your dosage, then I don´t see a problem.
 
I say, if it´s not broken, don´t fix it. We often see the trajectory of Benzodiazepine usage slowly moving in a bad direction for most people. When we talk about ¨problem usage¨ we aren´t referring generally to someone who has managed to keep their dose and frequency consistent for decades. It is usually a more fluctuating pattern. If you don´t experience any side effects that are harming your quality of life, then I don´t see a major need to get off of these drugs. You´re a bit older, I´d argue a lot of the harder parts of your life are in the rearview mirror. If you need to take a small amount of Diazepam (Valium) to feel normal and you´re able to moderate your dosage, then I don´t see a problem.
Yeah, as I said I am 50:50 about just staying on them. I think too for me, I live in South East Asia and they're available OTC no questions asked and so it can easily spiral and has done many times and that's when things become problematic. I used to really hammer them but for the last year haven't taken more than a very low, therapeutic dose and I started taking them in the first place decades ago because I'm a shy and nervous personality and they actually really work for me. I don't think I've been to a job interview without them, or gone to a dinner party etc - I wouldn't be able to. On the other hand, I would like to see if I can operate without them and also now being halfway through the taper may as well persevere - if I can't deal then I can easily start on them again. I just feel that being early 50s I'm not sure I want to live out my life mildly stoned and never know any difference. I'll give it a go - I was off them as recently as 18 months ago and was fine. It's an experiment. Pro: whatever gets you through the night etc. Con: not comfortable with my brain chemistry not working naturally (but then what is "natural" - hence my attraction to benzos in the first place.)
 
Hey @billyj I hear you buddy. I became pretty good friends with an older gentleman that I only know through the forums. He is in his late 60´s now and when I first met him, he was mid 50´s. He was a successful real estate guy who flipped houses and that kind of shit in a wealthy part of the country (Hamptons). He had been a major Alcoholic/Cocaine addict in his youth, but had gotten clean and had been sober for a couple of decades.

He was diagnosed with cancer and the whole process led to chronic pain that made it difficult to function. This led him to Hydrocodone (Vicodin) and Gabapentin (Neurontin). This guy was able to moderate his usage. He never went overboard. His doctor would give him like 90 Hydrocodone per month and his idea of a ¨really bad month¨ meant consuming the entire 90. His mission was always to take a lower amount and attempt to tolerate the pain.

For this guy, it seemed that his own shame/guilt/concern was the ultimate problem, as the drugs in question were not really messing up any part of his life. In fact, they were allowing him to work and function. Still, he would always message me to talk about tapers, reductions... he wasn´t ever going to feel ¨complete¨ if he were dependent on anything. He was retiring by this point.

I said to him, you´ve done everything right in your life. You´re there for your family, you give them love and you have happiness. You have done the hard work, now is the time to rest and enjoy life. If you are on Hydrocodone until you die, I see no problem with that. As long as you´re happy, healthy and able to be honest, why not? I´m not saying all old folks should just go ape shit once social security kicks in. I just feel that deciding to remain on the drugs permanently can lead to a greater quality of life as opposed to spending your golden years yo-yoing through withdrawal. I see nothing wrong with it.

At this stage of your life man, you´re theoretically done being the one people depend on. You just have to focus on being happy and giving that same happiness to the ones you love. If you feel you can maintain your dosage without losing control, then I say go ahead and stay on them; only if you can remain disciplined though.

If you´re trying to think of the best way to taper, might I suggest Volumetric Dosing? There is a sticky on the BDD landing page that explains it more in-depth authored by yours truly. In short, it allows us to easily make incredibly minute changes to a given dose. If you´re taking 10mg Diazepam, we can easily make it so your drops are 10-9.9-9.8-9.7 and so on. The idea is that we can make drops so small they are practically imperceptible.

If you are looking for help/advice regarding the best ways to taper, volumetric dosing is a good place to start. Also, we can recommend other drugs that are not cross-tolerant with Benzodiazepines that can mitigate the negative symptoms coinciding with your taper. Just let me know if any of this sounds good or you want more information.

I´m not sure where you´re at. I worked as a Secondary-level History/English instructor in my 20´s. I lived in a few different places. I was in Phnom Penh for ~2 years. This would´ve been almost 10 years ago now. I also worked in Vientiane for a summer. Heroin was cheap and pure. There were Methamphetamine pills known as Yaa-Baa that were wicked cheap, though there was also crystal available for a higher price. The right pharmacy and the right pharmacist would hook you up with anything from Benzodiazepines right up to Oxycontin.

After being there for a while and taking my Heroin dependence to stupid levels (I was injecting at least 2 grams of relatively pure Heroin a day and sometimes more) and not being able to get high, I started injecting Pentobarbital (Nembutal), which is a powerful Barbiturate. I went to a Veterinarian on a lark to see if they´d give me some and they did. I then was injecting Heroin and Pentobarbital every day. I would sometimes swallow a 10 pack of Yaa-Baa just to remain upright in the classroom. I will add, every single student met their metrics in my classroom, so I was doing something right. Even the non-junkie instructors had a hard time with 100% passing. I guess I´m pretty full of myself :(
 
Hey @billyj I hear you buddy. I became pretty good friends with an older gentleman that I only know through the forums. He is in his late 60´s now and when I first met him, he was mid 50´s. He was a successful real estate guy who flipped houses and that kind of shit in a wealthy part of the country (Hamptons). He had been a major Alcoholic/Cocaine addict in his youth, but had gotten clean and had been sober for a couple of decades.

He was diagnosed with cancer and the whole process led to chronic pain that made it difficult to function. This led him to Hydrocodone (Vicodin) and Gabapentin (Neurontin). This guy was able to moderate his usage. He never went overboard. His doctor would give him like 90 Hydrocodone per month and his idea of a ¨really bad month¨ meant consuming the entire 90. His mission was always to take a lower amount and attempt to tolerate the pain.

For this guy, it seemed that his own shame/guilt/concern was the ultimate problem, as the drugs in question were not really messing up any part of his life. In fact, they were allowing him to work and function. Still, he would always message me to talk about tapers, reductions... he wasn´t ever going to feel ¨complete¨ if he were dependent on anything. He was retiring by this point.

I said to him, you´ve done everything right in your life. You´re there for your family, you give them love and you have happiness. You have done the hard work, now is the time to rest and enjoy life. If you are on Hydrocodone until you die, I see no problem with that. As long as you´re happy, healthy and able to be honest, why not? I´m not saying all old folks should just go ape shit once social security kicks in. I just feel that deciding to remain on the drugs permanently can lead to a greater quality of life as opposed to spending your golden years yo-yoing through withdrawal. I see nothing wrong with it.

At this stage of your life man, you´re theoretically done being the one people depend on. You just have to focus on being happy and giving that same happiness to the ones you love. If you feel you can maintain your dosage without losing control, then I say go ahead and stay on them; only if you can remain disciplined though.

If you´re trying to think of the best way to taper, might I suggest Volumetric Dosing? There is a sticky on the BDD landing page that explains it more in-depth authored by yours truly. In short, it allows us to easily make incredibly minute changes to a given dose. If you´re taking 10mg Diazepam, we can easily make it so your drops are 10-9.9-9.8-9.7 and so on. The idea is that we can make drops so small they are practically imperceptible.

If you are looking for help/advice regarding the best ways to taper, volumetric dosing is a good place to start. Also, we can recommend other drugs that are not cross-tolerant with Benzodiazepines that can mitigate the negative symptoms coinciding with your taper. Just let me know if any of this sounds good or you want more information.

I´m not sure where you´re at. I worked as a Secondary-level History/English instructor in my 20´s. I lived in a few different places. I was in Phnom Penh for ~2 years. This would´ve been almost 10 years ago now. I also worked in Vientiane for a summer. Heroin was cheap and pure. There were Methamphetamine pills known as Yaa-Baa that were wicked cheap, though there was also crystal available for a higher price. The right pharmacy and the right pharmacist would hook you up with anything from Benzodiazepines right up to Oxycontin.

After being there for a while and taking my Heroin dependence to stupid levels (I was injecting at least 2 grams of relatively pure Heroin a day and sometimes more) and not being able to get high, I started injecting Pentobarbital (Nembutal), which is a powerful Barbiturate. I went to a Veterinarian on a lark to see if they´d give me some and they did. I then was injecting Heroin and Pentobarbital every day. I would sometimes swallow a 10 pack of Yaa-Baa just to remain upright in the classroom. I will add, every single student met their metrics in my classroom, so I was doing something right. Even the non-junkie instructors had a hard time with 100% passing. I guess I´m pretty full of myself :(
What i find interesting with people being uncomfortable in such situations is that i wonder if they would feel the same way with a equally as "physically dependant" drug in their system like alot of srnis (venlafaxin comes to mind, from personal expirience, disgusting withdrawls) or even just needing to take blood pressure meds for the rest of your life or you die. Guess that opens up the bigger question of when its okay to be on something for the rest of your life and when it isnt.
 
What i find interesting with people being uncomfortable in such situations is that i wonder if they would feel the same way with a equally as "physically dependant" drug in their system like alot of srnis (venlafaxin comes to mind, from personal expirience, disgusting withdrawls) or even just needing to take blood pressure meds for the rest of your life or you die. Guess that opens up the bigger question of when it’s okay to be on something for the rest of your life and when it isnt.
Blood pressure medications don’t - as far as I know - mess around with your brain chemicals neither are they addictive. As I said, I simply want to try and get sober and stay that way because I think it would be interesting and probably rewarding after all this time to see things through clear eyes. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, then that’s okay also.
 
Hey @billyj I hear you buddy. I became pretty good friends with an older gentleman that I only know through the forums. He is in his late 60´s now and when I first met him, he was mid 50´s. He was a successful real estate guy who flipped houses and that kind of shit in a wealthy part of the country (Hamptons). He had been a major Alcoholic/Cocaine addict in his youth, but had gotten clean and had been sober for a couple of decades.

He was diagnosed with cancer and the whole process led to chronic pain that made it difficult to function. This led him to Hydrocodone (Vicodin) and Gabapentin (Neurontin). This guy was able to moderate his usage. He never went overboard. His doctor would give him like 90 Hydrocodone per month and his idea of a ¨really bad month¨ meant consuming the entire 90. His mission was always to take a lower amount and attempt to tolerate the pain.

For this guy, it seemed that his own shame/guilt/concern was the ultimate problem, as the drugs in question were not really messing up any part of his life. In fact, they were allowing him to work and function. Still, he would always message me to talk about tapers, reductions... he wasn´t ever going to feel ¨complete¨ if he were dependent on anything. He was retiring by this point.

I said to him, you´ve done everything right in your life. You´re there for your family, you give them love and you have happiness. You have done the hard work, now is the time to rest and enjoy life. If you are on Hydrocodone until you die, I see no problem with that. As long as you´re happy, healthy and able to be honest, why not? I´m not saying all old folks should just go ape shit once social security kicks in. I just feel that deciding to remain on the drugs permanently can lead to a greater quality of life as opposed to spending your golden years yo-yoing through withdrawal. I see nothing wrong with it.

At this stage of your life man, you´re theoretically done being the one people depend on. You just have to focus on being happy and giving that same happiness to the ones you love. If you feel you can maintain your dosage without losing control, then I say go ahead and stay on them; only if you can remain disciplined though.

If you´re trying to think of the best way to taper, might I suggest Volumetric Dosing? There is a sticky on the BDD landing page that explains it more in-depth authored by yours truly. In short, it allows us to easily make incredibly minute changes to a given dose. If you´re taking 10mg Diazepam, we can easily make it so your drops are 10-9.9-9.8-9.7 and so on. The idea is that we can make drops so small they are practically imperceptible.

If you are looking for help/advice regarding the best ways to taper, volumetric dosing is a good place to start. Also, we can recommend other drugs that are not cross-tolerant with Benzodiazepines that can mitigate the negative symptoms coinciding with your taper. Just let me know if any of this sounds good or you want more information.

I´m not sure where you´re at. I worked as a Secondary-level History/English instructor in my 20´s. I lived in a few different places. I was in Phnom Penh for ~2 years. This would´ve been almost 10 years ago now. I also worked in Vientiane for a summer. Heroin was cheap and pure. There were Methamphetamine pills known as Yaa-Baa that were wicked cheap, though there was also crystal available for a higher price. The right pharmacy and the right pharmacist would hook you up with anything from Benzodiazepines right up to Oxycontin.

After being there for a while and taking my Heroin dependence to stupid levels (I was injecting at least 2 grams of relatively pure Heroin a day and sometimes more) and not being able to get high, I started injecting Pentobarbital (Nembutal), which is a powerful Barbiturate. I went to a Veterinarian on a lark to see if they´d give me some and they did. I then was injecting Heroin and Pentobarbital every day. I would sometimes swallow a 10 pack of Yaa-Baa just to remain upright in the classroom. I will add, every single student met their metrics in my classroom, so I was doing something right. Even the non-junkie instructors had a hard time with 100% passing. I guess I´m pretty full of myself :(
Hmm, I got off to a bit of a late start, opened my business in my early 40s and am now mid 50s. No kids etc. I actually have a lot on, kind of what a mid 30s person would be if they hadn't, like me, stuffed around and done nothing with their 20s and 30s. So I want to be a bit clearer to see if that helps with my work and finances and so on. As I said, I can think of nothing nicer than hanging out on dolls and booze and the occasional big weekend for the rest of my life. Life is to be enjoyed. But I also think at least experimenting with being off the dolls for a while couldn't hurt. I'm not looking to be a born again, I drink and smoke. It's not for health. I just want to know that I *can* get off them and deal with things without the edges of everything being blunted by tranquillisers. If that isn't doable, I can go back on them.
 
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