Does cannabis abstinence make you roll harder?

[Rio Fantastic]

Hello, I have heard that smoking weed in the week or so prior to rolling on MDMA will impact on the experience or that it would be more intense without it. Is this true, as I have smoked today and yesterday and am planning on rolling in 6 days. Any experience welcome

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

I have never heard of this happening...

 

[Te0X2t]

I've heard of it but I think it's a mythe...

 

[Fyasko.]

Cannabis apparently has a slight effect on the serotonin receptors.
if i remember correctly, at low doses it's an agonist,
and at higher doses it's an antagonist.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071023183937.htm

honestly i wouldnt even trip about it,
ive smoked tons the day prior to a roll and was absolutely faced haha

 

[Mugz]

Ok, I am really not sure where this belongs, but it doesn't belong in BDD, I will throw it over to ED first and if they don't think it is suitable for them then maybe it belongs in CD, but it certainly doesn't belong here in BDD.

 

[Heh?!]

This is a myth. There may be some similar physiology going on, but I smoke weed every day, and roll face every time I roll. I also smoke while I'm rolling, but weed can over power the roll for some people who don't smoke regularly.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

If you are in your first year of smoking weed, then perhaps it can make a small difference.
I remember feeling the after-effects of weed for many days after smoking, but only when I was new to it.
I can remember getting SO stoned back then, it was ridiculous.
But once you have been smoking for a while - once you stop feeling cloudy-headed afterwards, you probably wouldn't notice a big difference.
The difference would be subtle, even if you are a new smoker.

Marijuana definitely affects serotonin.
The 'munchies' are a result of this, IMO.
Not only can weed stimulate your appetite, it can cause contractions of the stomach and intestines in response.
Appetite is one of many functions modulated by serotonin.

When coming up on your roll, weed is often considered a waste.
But once you have peaked, it greatly potentiates the positive effects of MDMA.
Even after coming down, it often brings back the feeling of rolling. Sometimes into the next day.

For those that have negative reactions to MDMA, such as myself, the high from weed is altered for a LONG time.
The same is true of many other serotonergic drugs - LSD and mushrooms included.
Some former users of these psychedelic substances stop smoking weed permanently.
Those that don't often go through a period of weed abstinence, because the high just isn't fun anymore.
In fact, it can be pretty fucking horrible.

Once your serotonin network is damaged, drugs that utilize serotonin, such as THC, do not affect you the same way.
Weed brought on some of my very worst panic attacks, in the first month post MDMA.
It did improve, but I would often feel something other than stoned.
If I did manage to get high, it would take at least 20 minutes to get there.
I would take only 2 hits and WAIT. Nervously.

It felt like some parts of my brain were getting the THC at different times.
Kind of like an orchestra that is out of sync - sometimes so out of sync it was unrecognizable.
If it didn't cause anxiety and migraine, it might just turn into a feeling of being high.
Even when I DID feel high, it still wasn't the same, and it often peaked and faded away too quickly.

It is much more predictable, after nine months.
But there are still many days when I just don't want it.
Nor do I miss it.

As I researched countless studies on MDMA neurotoxicity, I was surprised to find several similar findings with cannabis users.
Although marijuana is very often a confounding factor in MDMA research, there is a pattern seen that is easy to overlook.

More than once, I read that the MDMA users who had the greatest prior exposure to cannabis, were the most likely to experience significant emotional and psychological suffering from MDMA.

While the extent of MDMA exposure predicts the 'cognitive' deficit, it is the extent of marijuana use that predicts the 'emotional' deficit.

Most of those with long-term recoveries from MDMA that I have met have this in common.
It is not just a confounding factor - it may be a common denominator.
This shouldn't be such a surprise, since cannabis is also associated with a significantly increased risk of developing schizophrenia or other mental disorders.

I wouldn't worry so much about smoking changing your roll in the short-term.
But long-term use of marijuana is NOT a good idea for anyone wanting to make MDMA or any psychedelic drug a part of their lives as they get older.
This is my strong advice.

 

[severely etarded]

Cannabis doesn't affect seroronin. Neither does LSD or it would cause serotonin syndrome when candyflipping or smoking while rolling. All cannabis does is lower the threshold makes more with less IMO. Gives u a nice stoney feeling if u like that kind of thing.

 

[Heh?!]

It is not just a confounding factor - it may be a common denominator.
This shouldn't be such a surprise, since cannabis is also associated with a significantly increased risk of developing schizophrenia or other mental disorders.

That statement is a bit misleading. You can not develop schizophrenia if you do not have the gene(s?) for it. Also, schizophrenia(and other mental illness') commonly set in at an age at which most young males have already smoked marijuana, and the amount of young males who smoke, or have smoked(at least once), rivals if not surpasses by a small margin, the number of young males who have never smoked marijuana. It's a situation begging to be exploited and misconstrued for the sake of fear mongering by the government/pharmaceutical companies. Besides all of that, it is very possible that the person turns to substances as a form of pre-medicating themselves in some cases. They know they feel different, but can't quite put their finger on it, that's just a quick thought I had though.

In short:
Schizophrenia requires the genetics for the condition(this is important).
Schizophrenia commonly surfaces in the late teens(possibly early twenties?)
This is the age range at which most people who will ever smoke weed, do so or have already(It's like saying the baby bottles are associated with a significant risk of developing Autism).

I do notice getting high is very different for a few days after rolling. It certainly feels like a short, mild, roll. Similar to smoking weed during the first week or so on an SSRI.

EDIT: As FBC said, it almost always brings me back up for a little while if I'm coming down from my roll. Also, if I'm right on the edge of coming up, a little snapper or a puff or 2 on a joint can pull me right over the edge into awesomeness Then I proceed to be super stupid throughout the night and forget every train of thought within a minute of it starting.
EDIT: One last edit. Marijuana doesn't have a direct effect on serotonin, it acts on the dopamine/nor-epinephrine receptors.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Quick example - concomitant use of cannabis with MDMA results in lower prolactin response to fenfluramine.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322301013063

Yes, its a small sample size. Lots of people like to oppose me without really trying, so I will point it out myself.
But the finding is in line with my assertion - heavier use of cannabis results in lower endocrine response to serotonin release.

Here is another - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hup.342/abstract
Once again small sample size, but it shows that the use of cannabis is directly related to the statistical significance of serotonergic dysfunction in former MDMA users. Those that were not heavy smokers, did not exhibit significant scores for emotional/psychological problems. Yet another study that shows MDMA's neurotoxic effect may not be directly related to emotional problems on its own. It is the combination...

Here's another - http://www.springerlink.com/content/vr8cc8rh2m1pd8j4/
Self-reported psychological problems are closely correlated to the combination of MDMA and regular cannabis use.

Marijuana results in lowered serotonin and nor-epinephrine levels in teenagers.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217115834.htm

Low doses of marijuana increases serotonin, while large doses cause it to 'plummet'.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/10/a-little-mariju/

Cannabidiol, a non-psychoactive component of cannabis, has a modest affinity for the 5-HT1a receptor and possibly 5-HT2a. http://www.springerlink.com/content/y132n82436n8086v/

Taking SSRI andti-depressants decrease or eliminate the effects of LSD.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0893133X95001454

Mushrooms can cause schizophrenia-like psychosis through action on the 5-HT2a receptor.
http://journals.lww.com/neuroreport...duces_schizophrenia_like_psychosis_in.24.aspx

It think that's enough posting for now.

I am surprised that people simply want to argue with me about the most basic things.
If you think that LSD doesn't effect serotonin, you are arguing about a very basic concept.

LSD is not a direct releaser of serotonin, but it IS an agonist of certain receptors, which will indirectly increase serotonin in brain regions like the visual cortex.
Your 5-HT receptors are indeed involved in the actions of MOST psychidelic drugs. LSD, mushrooms, piperazines, MDMA - all serotonergic.

Here's a fun one - http://jcp.bmj.com/content/53/3/223.abstract
Two case-reports of SEVERE neuorleptic malignant syndrome from the combination of MDMA and LSD.

If you didn't know - this is a condition very closely related to serotonin syndrome.
The key difference is speed of onset - SS happens VERY quickly.
It can take days after MDMA use to develop SS, but when it starts it is very sudden - like a switch is flipped.

NMS takes longer, sometimes days or even weeks to develop.
When it happens slowly, as in NMS, it is considered potentially severe and extremely toxic.
The patients mentioned in this study had destruction of skeletal muscle fiber.
In some areas over 50% of fibers were torn and edema (swelling) was profound.
There was tissue necrosis in one patient.

Just in case you don't understand the significance of this kind of edema...
Just imagine the 'jaw clenching' and muscle tightness from MDMA that you are used to.
Now multiply it in intensity and duration until your muscles are hurting like never before in your life.
Yet you still can't stop the clenching.
Your arms, legs, and face all swell up with fluid - similar to a patient with liver failure.
Your brain is also put under pressure from the edema, by the way.
Although your large muscles are aching uncontrollably, it is the skeletal muscle that starts to die first.
As this happens, toxins are released into your blood that are normally only found in people that have been CRUSHED, like by a falling building.
If this toxin, known as myoglobin, reaches high enough levels, your kidneys are destroyed and urine turns dark brown. And you die.

Look - I understand that LSD and MDMA is a beautiful mixture. I have never tried it myself, but I have heard plenty about it.
No, LSD is not as powerful a serotonin releaser as MDMA, so the odds of Serotonin Syndrome or NMS are lower when compared to MAO.
But LSD is a damned powerful drug with LONG-lasting effects on the brain. To say that it doesn't affect serotonin and can't cause SS is just wrong.

The greater risk is MDMA - it does not mix safely with most substances.
This includes heavy use of weed, for fuck's sake.
So don't go around deluding yourself - the mixture of two powerful psychedelic drugs can be VERY dangerous.

I have a friend that combined mushrooms and MDMA.
The next day his intestinal pain was so bad he had surgery to remove a section.
He was also having extreme anxiety and panic the whole night.
Now he says he 'hates' tabs.

Your serotonin system exists primarily for the contraction of smooth muscle around your intestines, but it is also closely linked to many diverse brain functions. These drugs take advantage of the astounding brain-gut connection - and there is always potential for problems when playing with nerves.
As with any drug, dosage is a VERY important factor. The more you take, the greater the risk.

This is even true of the interaction between weed and MDMA - the more you smoke, the more likely you are to have MAJOR issues, due to modified serotonin function. I have little doubt that my long-term use of marijuana played a direct role in my breakdown from MDMA use. But it was the combination of MDMA and high dose benedryl that caused Serotonin Syndrome to happen.

I should mention that the benedryl wasn't taken for 48 hours after my mini-binge on MDMA.
By 72 hours, it nearly killed me, and very suddenly. I was fine one minute, and dying of a heart-attack the next (so I thought).
If I hadn't been in great shape and controlling my body-temperature...who knows.

If MDMA plus 4 benedryl tabs, spaced two days apart, can cause severe SS...
Just try to listen to advice - I don't give it for no reason.
And please don't argue with me just because you don't like the statements I make.
If you have something to say, back it up.

Schizophrenia is not only caused by genetics.
Environmental factors play an important role, along with drug use.
While it typically begins in teens or early 20s, it does happen to much older people.
Once it occurs, follow-up episodes are typical.
It is a tragic disorder that truly changes the way a person experiences their life.
It is believed to be caused by an excess of dopamine in the lower brain regions, along with a reduced dopamine and activity level in higher brain regions.

MDMA selectively damages serotonin axons in higher brain regions, especially the Prefrontal Cortex.
Serotonin modulates other neurotransmitters - especially dopamine.
It also has a direct and profound influence on blood flow around the brain.

So using MDMA, especially in combination with other serotonin agents like LSD, can cause a severe disruption in blood flow, glucose metabolism, and dopamine release in higher brain regions. Long-term use of marijuana also decreases serotonin.

Those with genetic predisposition to this dopamine malfunction are MUCH more likely to develop the disorder if they smoke weed or take psychedelics.
However, there are PLENTY of people that were never diagnosed with schizophrenia that exhibited symptoms INDISTINGUISHABLE from the disease - DUE TO MDMA USE.

Diagnosis with schizophrenia is withheld for ONE year after drug discontinuation - and this psychosis is typical of amphetamine use (meth,MDMA).
Some develop this dopamine disconnect from a traumatic life event - others cause it through long term drug use.
Genetics are involved, but not for all patients.

I hope somebody is listening...

 

[Number Love]

I have 2 opinions on this, and its only from my own experiences.

I think what smoking weed before rolling or being high high during your come up, it can make you less aware of how hard you are rolling. Almost like I become more confused with the things my body is feeling. It's less noticeable, but in reality, it's all there, and the peak is essentially the same. Just less....evident.

Smoking weed when you first start to come down, makes you feel that rolling feeling again. Almost like it brings you back there, and while peaking smoking is great but really has no effect, kind of a waste.

Ideally, I'd keep completely clear headed while I come up and all throughout my peak, and on the come down, smoke weed, bringing myself back into the roll and extending the feeling, completely come down, smoke weed until i pass out. wake up, feel awesome.

 

[MasterSplinter]

I think what smoking weed before rolling or being high high during your come up, it can make you less aware of how hard you are rolling.

Um..the only beans I ever eated with a pot leaf on them didnt even have THC in them so I dont think it really makes a difference just because of that dont you think?

 

[Number Love]

Idk I was just saying sometimes I feel like I can be too stoned to appreciate the hold MDMA starts to take on my brain. Like I just can't comprehend all the ways my senses are being changed. It could just be me being stoned and weird. Who knows.

Maybe some stoner out there understands what i mean.

 

[MasterSplinter]

Idk I was just saying sometimes I feel like I can be too stoned to appreciate the hold MDMA starts to take on my brain. Like I just can't comprehend all the ways my senses are being changed. It could just be me being stoned and weird. Who knows.

Maybe some stoner out there understands what i mean.

Yeh Im with you. Sometimes the thoughts are more complicated than what a normal thought should be when your not rollin on ecstasy. Smoking a fat blunt or two usually makes me feel more enhanced than what your average newb might see at a skrillex concert.

So After you pop ur beans just smoke a fat blunt, chug a Bud or two. This Buds for me. This buds for you.

You'll be good to go.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

I'm not asking about if being stoned while you roll will dampen it, I'm asking if not smoking any in the days before rolling has an effect.

 

[severely etarded]

^ No, FBC has been reading too much anti-marijuana propaganda.

 

[Heh?!]

^ No, FBC has been reading too much anti-marijuana propaganda.

This. Smoke to your hearts content.

 

[severely etarded]

FBC. You are normally a very informative poster, but in this post you are just spewing a bunch of nonsense.

Quick example - concomitant use of cannabis with MDMA results in lower prolactin response to fenfluramine.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322301013063

Doesn't MDMA use alone do this? what does cannabis have to do with it?

Yes, its a small sample size. Lots of people like to oppose me without really trying, so I will point it out myself.
But the finding is in line with my assertion - heavier use of cannabis results in lower endocrine response to serotonin release.

Regardless of the sample size, the study really is pointless..

Here is another - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hup.342/abstract
Once again small sample size, but it shows that the use of cannabis is directly related to the statistical significance of serotonergic dysfunction in former MDMA users. Those that were not heavy smokers, did not exhibit significant scores for emotional/psychological problems. Yet another study that shows MDMA's neurotoxic effect may not be directly related to emotional problems on its own. It is the combination...

Here's another - http://www.springerlink.com/content/vr8cc8rh2m1pd8j4/
Self-reported psychological problems are closely correlated to the combination of MDMA and regular cannabis use.

NONE of these studies took into account whether the MDMA they used was tested or not (could have been MDMA + Speed,), or other drugs they may use, whether or not they drink while rolling. All these studies have very little control and are completely flawed in multiple aspects.

Marijuana results in lowered serotonin and nor-epinephrine levels in teenagers.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217115834.htm

Marijuana is seeked by teenagers as an alternative to their shitty ass SSRI's that the 'doc' prescribed. Trust me they used to have me on zoloft and effexor etc. I know I'm one of these. I bet this study doesn't realize THESE TEENS WERE (probably like me <--DEPRESSED BEFORE THEY STARTED SMOKING WEED. You think maybe that might have something to do about it?

Low doses of marijuana increases serotonin, while large doses cause it to 'plummet'.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/10/a-little-mariju/

This is about pain, not serotonin. Pain and serotonin are two completely seperate parts of the nervous system...

Cannabidiol, a non-psychoactive component of cannabis, has a modest affinity for the 5-HT1a receptor and possibly 5-HT2a. http://www.springerlink.com/content/y132n82436n8086v/

I mean so do bananas and turkey...

Taking SSRI andti-depressants decrease or eliminate the effects of LSD.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0893133X95001454

Anybody else heard of this? This is new to me but I'm not sure what it has to do with OP.

Mushrooms can cause schizophrenia-like psychosis through action on the 5-HT2a receptor.
http://journals.lww.com/neuroreport...duces_schizophrenia_like_psychosis_in.24.aspx

Interesting but still irrelevent to OP

I am surprised that people simply want to argue with me about the most basic things.
If you think that LSD doesn't effect serotonin, you are arguing about a very basic concept.

LSD is not a direct releaser of serotonin, but it IS an agonist of certain receptors, which will indirectly increase serotonin in brain regions like the visual cortex.
Your 5-HT receptors are indeed involved in the actions of MOST psychidelic drugs. LSD, mushrooms, piperazines, MDMA - all serotonergic.

Here's a fun one - http://jcp.bmj.com/content/53/3/223.abstract
Two case-reports of SEVERE neuorleptic malignant syndrome from the combination of MDMA and LSD.

If you didn't know - this is a condition very closely related to serotonin syndrome.
The key difference is speed of onset - SS happens VERY quickly.
It can take days after MDMA use to develop SS, but when it starts it is very sudden - like a switch is flipped.

NMS takes longer, sometimes days or even weeks to develop.
When it happens slowly, as in NMS, it is considered potentially severe and extremely toxic.
The patients mentioned in this study had destruction of skeletal muscle fiber.
In some areas over 50% of fibers were torn and edema (swelling) was profound.
There was tissue necrosis in one patient.

Just in case you don't understand the significance of this kind of edema...
Just imagine the 'jaw clenching' and muscle tightness from MDMA that you are used to.
Now multiply it in intensity and duration until your muscles are hurting like never before in your life.
Yet you still can't stop the clenching.
Your arms, legs, and face all swell up with fluid - similar to a patient with liver failure.
Your brain is also put under pressure from the edema, by the way.
Although your large muscles are aching uncontrollably, it is the skeletal muscle that starts to die first.
As this happens, toxins are released into your blood that are normally only found in people that have been CRUSHED, like by a falling building.
If this toxin, known as myoglobin, reaches high enough levels, your kidneys are destroyed and urine turns dark brown. And you die.

Look - I understand that LSD and MDMA is a beautiful mixture. I have never tried it myself, but I have heard plenty about it.
No, LSD is not as powerful a serotonin releaser as MDMA, so the odds of Serotonin Syndrome or NMS are lower when compared to MAO.
But LSD is a damned powerful drug with LONG-lasting effects on the brain. To say that it doesn't affect serotonin and can't cause SS is just wrong.

Where do you get this information? NMS is not caused by serotonin syndrome. It's simply a bad reaction to a neuroleptic chemical. Nothing more, nothing less.

NMS is usually caused by neuroleptic drug use, and a wide range of drug potencies can result in NMS.[1] It has been reported that individuals using haloperidol and chlorpromazine are at greatest risk. NMS may also occur in people (such as patients with Parkinson's disease) who are taking a class of drugs known as dopaminergics (e.g., Levodopa) when the dosage is abruptly reduced.[11] In addition, other drugs which are not used as neuroleptics, but which have anti-dopaminergic activity, can induce NMS (e.g., metoclopramides).[12] Even drugs which do not have known anti-dopaminergic activity (e.g., amoxapines and lithium) have been associated with NMS. Also, the treatment of individuals with desipramine, dothiepin, lithium and phenelzine, tetrabenazine, and reserpine have been known to result in NMS.[13] At the molecular level, the NMS is caused by a marked and sudden reduction in dopamine activity that is induced either by withdrawal of dopaminergic agents or by blocking dopamine receptors.

The greater risk is MDMA - it does not mix safely with most substances.
This includes heavy use of weed, for fuck's sake.
So don't go around deluding yourself - the mixture of two powerful psychedelic drugs can be VERY dangerous.

The use of ANY drug can be dangerous...

I have a friend that combined mushrooms and MDMA.
The next day his intestinal pain was so bad he had surgery to remove a section.
He was also having extreme anxiety and panic the whole night.
Now he says he 'hates' tabs.

Those tabs could have had ecoli for all you know. Thanks to this bullshit war on drugs you have to get your shrooms from bullshit and you don't know what kind of sanitary precautions have been used pressing the pills FFS.

Your serotonin system exists primarily for the contraction of smooth muscle around your intestines, but it is also closely linked to many diverse brain functions. These drugs take advantage of the astounding brain-gut connection - and there is always potential for problems when playing with nerves.
As with any drug, dosage is a VERY important factor. The more you take, the greater the risk.

No arguements...

This is even true of the interaction between weed and MDMA - the more you smoke, the more likely you are to have MAJOR issues, due to modified serotonin function. I have little doubt that my long-term use of marijuana played a direct role in my breakdown from MDMA use. But it was the combination of MDMA and high dose benedryl that caused Serotonin Syndrome to happen.

I should mention that the benedryl wasn't taken for 48 hours after my mini-binge on MDMA.

By 72 hours, it nearly killed me, and very suddenly. I was fine one minute, and dying of a heart-attack the next (so I thought).
If I hadn't been in great shape and controlling my body-temperature...who knows.

If MDMA plus 4 benedryl tabs, spaced two days apart, can cause severe SS...
Just try to listen to advice - I don't give it for no reason.
And please don't argue with me just because you don't like the statements I make.
If you have something to say, back it up.

You don't think that binge had mostly to do with it? You should never binge on anything...

Schizophrenia is not only caused by genetics.
Environmental factors play an important role, along with drug use.
While it typically begins in teens or early 20s, it does happen to much older people.
Once it occurs, follow-up episodes are typical.
It is a tragic disorder that truly changes the way a person experiences their life.
It is believed to be caused by an excess of dopamine in the lower brain regions, along with a reduced dopamine and activity level in higher brain regions.

Schizophrenia has primary causes from genetics and environmental factors play a secondarily worsening factor, but in no way a cause.

MDMA selectively damages serotonin axons in higher brain regions, especially the Prefrontal Cortex.
Serotonin modulates other neurotransmitters - especially dopamine.
It also has a direct and profound influence on blood flow around the brain.

Spot on

So using MDMA, especially in combination with other serotonin agents like LSD, can cause a severe disruption in blood flow, glucose metabolism, and dopamine release in higher brain regions. Long-term use of marijuana also decreases serotonin.

You're wrong here. LSD has very very low afinity to the serotonin receptors. Technically sunlight and bananas have afinity to them too you know?

LSD affects a large number of the G protein coupled receptors, including all dopamine receptor subtypes, and all adrenoreceptor subtypes, as well as many others. LSD binds to most serotonin receptor subtypes except for 5-HT3 and 5-HT4. However, most of these receptors are affected at too low affinity to be sufficiently activated by the brain concentration of approximately 10–20 nM.[77] In humans, recreational doses of LSD can affect 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT5A, and 5-HT6 receptors.[1][78] 5-HT5B receptors, which are not present in humans, also have a high affinity for LSD.[79] The psychedelic effects of LSD are attributed to its strong partial agonist effects at 5-HT2A receptors as specific 5-HT2A agonists are psychedelics and largely 5-HT2A specific antagonists block the psychedelic activity of LSD.[77] Exactly how this produces the drug's effects is unknown, but it is thought that it works by increasing glutamate release in the cerebral cortex and therefore excitation in this area, specifically in layers IV and V.[80] LSD, like many other drugs, has been shown to activate DARPP-32-related pathways.[81]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide

Those with genetic predisposition to this dopamine malfunction are MUCH more likely to develop the disorder if they smoke weed or take psychedelics.
However, there are PLENTY of people that were never diagnosed with schizophrenia that exhibited symptoms INDISTINGUISHABLE from the disease - DUE TO MDMA USE.

You're really deluding the word USE to mean ABUSE bro. Anyone who gets schizophrenia without predisposition from MDMA is rolling WAYY too much taking in WAYY to much MDMA. Healthy use shouldn't do that to people genetically predisposed to a healthy mindstate.

Diagnosis with schizophrenia is withheld for ONE year after drug discontinuation - and this psychosis is typical of amphetamine use (meth,MDMA).
Some develop this dopamine disconnect from a traumatic life event - others cause it through long term drug use.
Genetics are involved, but not for all patients.

I hope somebody is listening...

I understand where you come from FBC, but you have to understand your problems arose from ABUSE of MDMA, anything else was only an aggravating factor.

OP - If you are accustomed to smoking weed, you will not have any problems from not smoking.

And it will not dampen your roll at all.

Just use responsibly and you will have no adverse effects that FBC is ranting about.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Excuse me Mr. Moderator?
The rest of your post was moderately respectful, but your opening could use some help.
I am not 'spewing' nonsense, but I am strongly opinionated.
Remember what you first said - 'You are normally a VERY informative poster.'

Did I simply fuck this one up?
Or do you simply dislike what I'm saying?

I really don't want to get in an arguing match with a Mod, so I will keep this brief...

Yes, marijuana use increases the risk associated with MDMA - IF marijuana is consumed REGULARLY.
Like it or not, it is TRUE.

How many more studies would I have to post to convince you?
The fact is, you simply don't WANT it to be true - understandable... because they are a GREAT combination.
There is nothing like a bowl to bring that roll ROARING back.

But smoking DAILY is a VERY common confounding factor when it comes to patients experiencing SERIOUS clinical symptoms of anxiety post MDMA.
It is common enough that you can find in several META studies, and yes...in neuro-endocrine studies.
You have dismissed a decent link.

In this first link I have answered the OP's question - heavy cannabis use DOES decrease the brain's response to serotonin release.
Smoking WHILE rolling won't take away, but smoking for WEEKS beforehand WILL. Period. End of discussion.

And bringing up 'purity' issues is one of the MOST common practices among MDMA users.
Somehow they believe that ALL studies are compromised due to this confounding factor.
When you read THOUSANDS of papers, you begin to realize that the data is over-whelming in some ways.
You would have to assume that nearly ALL tabs are adulterated to DISMISS all the data.
Weak argument.

As far as marijuana lowering serotonin - again you are dismissive.
I agree that SSRIs are SHITTY and even CRIMINAL, especially when given to KIDS.
But are you really going to take the position that MARIJUANA is an ANTI-DEPRESSANT?

Um...sure it helps like not suck.
And it DOES increase serotonin with SMALL doses.
So you could make this argument for MODERATE use...but not regular use.
That article mentions pain, but it also clearly states that cannabis DECREASES serotonin over time.
You know...this supports my first link...the one that says MDMA + daily WEED = greater risk for extreme anxiety.
Hmm...

Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome shares a remarkable number of symptoms with SS.
It is unknown what the exact cause is, but usually dopaminergic drugs are to blame.
SS and NMS are easily mistaken based on similar presentation in the ER - it is the medication/drug that determines the answer.
But NMS HAS been seen with serotonin agonists - remember serotonin is a modulator of dopamine.

In fact, the loss of serotonin innervation from MDMA directly effects dopamine levels in the frontal lobes.
Why would you even bother arguing a clear case study?
It is probably the dopamine activity of LSD and weak afinity for serotonin, combined with MASSIVE release of serotonin by MDMA that caused this.

LSD + MDMA resulted in catastrophic NMS in two patients.
Candy-flipping is NOT 'safe'. The DANGER is REAL, especially with combinations!

I know TWO friends that had SEVERE intestinal problems due to mushrooms.
One of them took it with MDMA, the other just ate shrooms too often.
All of the above damage nerves that control the intestines. That's what serotonin is ALL about.
Ecoli infection is very unlikely, my friend.

And YES, binging on MDMA is an ABSURDLY horrid idea.
But what I call a BINGE, is minor compared to what others describe.
I took 2.5 tabs, twice six days apart. Then another half the next day.
Then 48 hours later 4 benedryl.
The next day I woke up to a life-threatening case of Serotonin Syndrome.
Not much of a 'binge', is it?

Being a regular pot smoker for YEARS didn't help either, but the benedryl was really the straw that broke the camel on this one.
I find it astounding how many people claim that the 'honeymoon' period is normal and without consequence.
An abundance of research CLEARLY demonstrates that repeated dosing causes MORE and MORE damage.

This was my only 'binge'.
And my life-time exposure was less than 30 tabs.
So the word ABUSE doesn't belong in this argument.

Moderate USE of MDMA after YEARS of smoking weed, combined with a high-dose of benedryl... resulted in Serotonin Syndrome.
The anxiety caused by the 're-wiring' of my brain was similar to the symptoms of schizophrenia, especially in the first few months.
I do NOT have mental illness in my family, and few 'environmental' factors...

Do you really think that ALL the people shown in MDMA studies to suffer for 1-2 years from intense anxiety were simply ABUSERS?
Or had genetic weakness?

It is more likely that you are underestimating the DANGER of MDMA.
There are many factors involved, genetics and weed included....but the dose of MDMA is the MOST important factor.

"Just use responsibly and you will have no adverse effects that FBC is ranting about."

This is an IRRESPONSIBLE statement on your part.
You can in NO way guarantee the SAFETY of ANY MDMA user/abuser on this board.
Without defining 'responsible' you may be putting people at greater danger.
By disagreeing with so many studies just to be contrary or defensive further endangers the young people that find their way to BL.

It is pretty obvious that most people don't know how to define 'responsible'.
150mg per roll, with rolls spaced by at LEAST 90 days.

That is 'safe'.
Or at least 'safe' enough that research cannot detect problems with this type of clinical dosing.
How many OPs around here have that type of control?

Ok....'ranting' is complete.
For the record, I have no issues with you Severely Etarded.
In fact, I enjoy debate and argument.
I hope the same is true for you...
Just think carefully before calling my contribution 'nonsense'.

I know I go WAY further than some people would like, but there are always readers that learn from the time I spend here.
I truly wish to educate users/abusers about the risks involved. There are a lot of basics understood...there is a lot more that isn't known.
All we can do is value truth.

Until next time.

 

[chitown rollin]

There is no evidence to support that it makes you roll any less. I have rolled when I was smoking weed and when I hadn't smoked weed for months and I actually rolled not as hard when I wasn't smoking weed off of similar pills (mints).

Always good to see a good argument with First Bad Comedown . I'll read the rest tomorrow as I am sure it is great.