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  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Mandatory training/certification to have children?

Don't forget to disable those willies -- there are at least as many unfit fathers in this world as mothers, and probably more.

Definitely - I'm undoubtedly one of them - you're too late to catch me tho - that said my progeny are all doing pretty well so although I'm as unfit as you can get by wider societies standards by some circuitous miracle my kids area all upstanding citizens pretty much - true story :).
How would you disable a willie ?- Far too much mdma is one option but probably unsustainable long term
 
This subject makes me confused, because my own parents are such morons that they should have never gotten the permission to have children, but without that right, there wouldn't be me... Even idiotic parents can sometimes produce good offspring.
 
The desire to reproduce is one of the strongest driving force in most people's lives... Trying to prevent certain people from reproducing is futile. I could see laws being enacted to penalize people for having too many children though... This is less drastic and more reasonable in terms of ability to implement.
 
I like your post CD, for all sorts of reasons :D, & I already had thought about it - great minds etc ;)

yes...zophie...you are my favourite Bluelighter and always will be.

probably favourite two-legger in general.
 
Most here are convinced of tyrannic speculations being the case if this were to be true.

I just want to clarify that in arguing this point, I am not focusing on the privileged aspect of raising children- something that can be taken away from people.

My idea is that if someone wants to have kids, its not a matter of the government or any agency approving the person(s). Rather its about educating them in order to raise kids. This kind of information should be brought to people and made mandatory for them to read.

I AM IN FAVOR OF FREE CHOICE.
HOWEVER I DO BELEIVE THAT THIS INFORMATION (PROPER CHILD REARING) SHOULD BE REQUIRED AND GIVEN TO ALL PARENTS SO THAT THE PARENTS THEMSELVES DONT HAVE TO LOOK FOR THE INFORMATION ON THEIR OWN.

ITS NOT A WAY TO RESTRIC PEOPLES FREEDOMS, BUT RATHER A WAY TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE ALL THE PROPER TOOLS/INFORMATION NESSCARY TO MAKE GOOD CHILD REARING HAPPEN.

I LOVE FREDOM, DONt GET IT TWISTED <3:)
 
probably favourite two-legger in general.

Fausty, is that you? 8o

In short, I agree with the OP's goals, but not his way of getting there. I'm on my Ob-Gyn rotation in medical school right now, and it's a hard type of medicine to be involved in, since I strongly believe that most problems facing humanity right now come down to this planet having too many people.

I don't judge the 90% of women in labor whose charts list their job as 'unemployed' and their insurance as 'self-pay / charity care' -- many of these women are probably stay at home mothers with SOs who work. And even if not, poverty doesn't automatically make one an unfit parent. However, I very much do judge women who clearly don't want or can't handle more kids, but keep having more anyway.

I really think we should reach a point where all women in the world have one child, until the world population is down to 1~2 billion. However, I doubt very strongly that top-down government mandates are an effective way to achieve this. China only gets away with it because they are unabashedly undemocratic, and willing to tolerate some nasty side effects like forced sterilization and a lopsided gender ratio. Plus, the one child policy is largely flouted in rural areas of China, where more hands still make for easier farming, same as it ever was.

The places in the world that have organically, i.e. without a mandate, achieved a sub-replacement birthrate, have really two things in common:
1) Their agricultural sector does not rely on large amounts of human labor, and
2) Their girls are well educated
No, it's not a direct correlation with wealth, as is often believed. There are some fairly rich countries that are fecund, and some fairly poor countries that aren't, because they meet the criteria above. You want to lower any population's birthrate? Raise female literacy to 100%, and encourage girls to pursue all the same educational and occupational opportunities as boys do. They'll have a lot more to do and think about besides being good (read: fecund) mothers and wives.

Also, encourage the natural trend toward movement of people from rural areas to cities, along with the mechanization of farming. Humanity's future is in cities, and let no tree hugging dirt worshiper tell you differently. Urban people have always had much fewer children than rural people -- there just isn't the space, nor for most people the finances or the need, for large broods.

I'd also be willing to try tax breaks and other positive incentives from the government to people who choose to have 1 or 0 children. If, for example, the US had an all-inclusive government provided health insurance plan available ONLY to families with one child, as well as fully subsidized contraception of a variety of types available to all, I bet you'd see the whole 'welfare mother' phenomenon disappear overnight. But notice these are carrots, not sticks.
 
WTF is that supposed to mean???
you internet clowns are all schizo, thats what it is! stark raving mad!
 
If you remove undesirables and worthless individuals everyone gets to share a more of the resources that would have been wasted. More food, land, water and air for the best people.


Obviously I would want to be in charge of any eugenics program to ensure my survival and for me to gift to mankind my ability to advance our species.

That doesn't answer my question. I'm asking what makes you think you are any more valuable than a crack head or a mentally challenged person? ever have a conversation with either? I have.
Also how would you feel if someone discovered that you were merely a dilettante and in no way qualified to run such a program, and in fact one of the first that should go?
 
I'm certain this notion is in effect to some extent. - Couples should be required to take an examination to determine if their levels of fitness (bar cancer n shit, just as long as you aren't a fattybumbatty), health and most importantly intelligence are up to the standards of raising a human being.
 
Also, encourage the natural trend toward movement of people from rural areas to cities, along with the mechanization of farming. Humanity's future is in cities, and let no tree hugging dirt worshiper tell you differently. Urban people have always had much fewer children than rural people -- there just isn't the space, nor for most people the finances or the need, for large broods.

While this theory may have some merit as it pertains to population control, you're failing to recognize a couple of things here:

1.) Tree hugging dirt worshippers don't avoid stinking, crowded cities with the future of humanity foremost in our minds. We GTFO because the constant stress of being engulfed within the masses makes us insane and miserable. I'm willing to bet that there will always be a portion of the population who finds it impossible to conform to society's idiotic rules ("Gotta drive this, and wear that, and smell like this, or you're a NOBODY! And you'd better by God stay on your damned treadmill and RUN, little rat, because if the Joneses get ahead, nobody will ever love you!")and who finds it equally impossible to get along with SO many people ALL the time. Seriously, I'll be in an assylum, or in prison within 6 months if I am ever forced back into the city. I think these things will only become more true in a world, as you propose, full of single children, who don't know how to share, and require having their own way.

2.) Until everyone, urbanites included, quit building with lumber, wiping their tender behinds with paper, and listening to/playing spruce body guitars and spruce top pianos, we NEED a few people, like my SO, who are willing to live waaaaay out of the metroplex, where the harvestable timber is. That lonely tree that grows in Brooklyn won't go very far, doncha know.

Basically, what I'm saying is, don't encourage urbanization to the point that people who could have been contributors in a rural setting, instead become liabilities because they don't have the temperment to withstand and thrive in a constant high-stress environment. If that means a few more kiddos out in the sticks, so be it.

You're right, though. There ARE a lot of large families here in BFE. They aren't farming families, either. That doesn't have much to do with it anymore. Honestly, about all the people I know with big (4 or more kids) families were just sloppy about birth control once or twice. Probably no more than city dwellers, but with less pressure to terminate unplanned pregnancies because of lack of resources.
I'd also be willing to try tax breaks and other positive incentives from the government to people who choose to have 1 or 0 children. If, for example, the US had an all-inclusive government provided health insurance plan available ONLY to families with one child, as well as fully subsidized contraception of a variety of types available to all, I bet you'd see the whole 'welfare mother' phenomenon disappear overnight. But notice these are carrots, not sticks.

Eeeek! That's pretty darn harsh, dude! The kids with siblings would suffer most, and it's not their fault.
 
one might find PRETTY ROCKS form in conditions that we wouldn't find ideal, and whatnot.
 
Bring on Eugenics

If you remove undesirables and worthless individuals everyone gets to share a more of the resources that would have been wasted. More food, land, water and air for the best people.


Obviously I would want to be in charge of any eugenics program to ensure my survival and for me to gift to mankind my ability to advance our species.



Now I know for certain you're taking the piss for the lulz. The Eugenics programmes in the US, Australia have been roundly discredited in the literature as feeble attemps at social Darwinism.

And the shining example of Eugenics in the last century was during c.1930-1945 in a Nazi controlled Europe - didn't turn out too well.

If these are your genuine opinions, you should know that Eugenics has been thoroughly discredited in the Social Sciences. The Utilitarianism required to justify Eugenics is the same that allows for capital murder for organ harvesting and compulsory euthanisation....

Do you support those too? How can you be so sure that you would be excluded from any eugenics programme?8)8)
 
I would like genetic counseling available to everyone looking to have kids, which would be a form of eugenics. People who carry genes for Huntington's, Tay-Sachs, cystic fibrosis, cycle cell etc to be aware of the risks before hand.

I'm pro-eugenics when eugenics is voluntary. I worry about genism and other problems as voluntary eugenics expands to cultivating positive traits but provided that eugenics is voluntary I think it is good. I also think it is legitimate for policy makers to think about dysgenics and try to avoid dysgenic situations provided that compulsory means aren't utilized against citizens. Incentives are a grey area for me as incentivizing in many situations can grow into being of a compulsory effect.
 
yes if the goverment dont fuck it up to make generation of weak minded slaves

so many people with bad quality dna,idiots and other human trash have children that are born to be unhappy becose of their parents.I wish my parents would not recieve the permision to have me,their dna is full of mental sickness,its cancer of gene pool,my life is shit and I would never have children to stop this line of dna poison.If the permission system worked I will not need to deal with this sad world
 
No.

I look at government, I look at the people who work in in it and the kind of people they work for, and I look at the attitudes embodied in those elected to serve in it (if they're elected at all), and realize that they are not fit to make such a decision.

Yes, some people are raised badly, and turn into godless miscreants. Some people are born and raised well, but still turn into godless miscreants. Many, if not most of us were born flying blind--no college fund accruing interest, no schedule of after-school activities planned from kindergarten through high school, no knowledge of what diseases we'd be heir to or what odd twists of fate would lead us down one path or another--yet this world, even with all its imperfections, cannot be called insufferable as a result of it.

In sum, plenty of well-educated, affluent people regularly make the world a worse place, and plenty of lower-class people try to make it a better one. Between extremes like these is a spectrum that will never fit on a wallet-sized rectangle of paper and ink, nor should it, IMO. I can't speak for others, but I don't want the Rand Pauls, Pawlentys, or Kuciniches of the world telling people who is or isn't qualified to reproduce, not when their shit still stinks. We can talk about fairness all we want, but let's face it: in practice, this would be a "Relax, if your kid was born in the Hamptons or Orange County" policy.
 
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