• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Learning a new language - Your experience

Wow, socko, if you can actually slug through a french novel with just high school french, then I'm impressed.

I took it until grade 10, but I honestly didn't remember much of anything when I picked it back up last year. Maybe a few words and phrases, but that's about it.

If I were to pick up a novel right now, and read it in french, it would take me 15 minutes to get through the first page, and I would be looking up a lot of the phrases, because as you know, many words have several different meanings.
 
From my experience with Spanish and South America, I would recommend immersing yourself in a place where French is the only language spoken for a couple of weeks. Being immersed in it and forced to speak it and forced to listen to pronunciation (I was in the bush where nobody knew English) was much better in terms of being able to listen and comprehend than learning to read and write it (reading and writing in it were good for laerning grammar and vocab). Maybe doing some travelling in rural Quebec would be interesting, especially since some of them really hate the English language.
 
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I'm giving Tom Sawyer a try right now. It was one of the only free e-books I could find that I recognized. It's pretty slow going, and I'm constantly plugging words into my online dictionary and Google translate.

For example, I'll pick out a passage and try to translate it without any help. Maybe you can give me some feedback about where I stand.

Une fois en lieu sûr, Tom examina deux longues aiguilles piquées dans le revers de sa veste et enfilées l’une avec du fil blanc, l’autre avec du fil noir.

One time, in place of the top, Tom examined two long ??? needles in the back of her shirt and ??? one with white ???, the with ??? black.

I need to grow my vocabulary.
 
Nibblez, I too am a non-native Mandarin Chinese speaker. :) I agree with you, Jerry, and everyone else here who says that immersion is absolutely key, no matter what language you're trying to learn. The fact is, people generally only master conversation in a second language when they have no choice in the matter, because they need the second language in order to survive living where they are and doing what they're doing.

It's nigh on impossible to master a language when all the native speakers around you refuse to use it with you, usually because they reckon (correctly, in many cases) that their English is better than your version of their language. This is the dark side to being a native English speaker in today's world. :(

A friend of mine moved to Israel. She has tried to learn Hebrew, but her accent and mannerisms give her away as American right off the bat, and since 2/3 of Israelis are conversant in English, they just switch right over. It's not that she can't survive there. But it's tough when all the jokes and little side comments are in Hebrew. She's also shit outta luck if she wants to to take a local licensing exam for her job. You don't really get employed somewhere, definitely not in the service sector, without speaking the local language, no matter how good the locals' English is.

With this in mind, I say that a major and as-yet underappreciated factor in the difficulty of learning a language, is access to places where you will have no choice but to use it. Easiest in this category are therefore languages spoken by countries with a 'big country' outlook: China, Russia, Brazil, Indonesia, and Mexico are good examples. Go to any of these, and it's very easy to find yourself in situations where you're toast if you can't communicate in the one language most people there know, and expect everyone coming to their country to know!

By contrast, little languages spoken in small countries that are forced by circumstance to be very outward-looking and international, are very hard to learn. Locals in such places are likelier to use their local language as an 'insiders' language', and be more than ready to speak English and/or some other major lingua franca with everyone else. Learning these almost necessitates a preexisting closeness with a community of speakers, who like you and are patient with you.

Another big thing no one has mentioned: the first tough milestones to learning any second language is should be to acquire a familiarity with the sound set that that language uses. My Chinese professor spent the first two weeks of class just leading us in a chorus of all the possible sound combinations that could make up a Chinese word. He was brutal about correcting us, especially with the use of tones. We made fools of ourselves, but gained a lot of confidence together in our ability to make our mouths and brains move in a Chinese way. It's very easy to get discouraged learning any language, when the very sounds that make it up daunt you, and your accent is so thick that no native speakers understand much of what you say. I noticed a strong correlation between students who were willing and able to make their tongues form the basic sounds of Chinese, and those who were later willing to make the jump into trying out expressing ideas and saying things to native speakers spontaneously.

I don't mean to belittle the importance of how close your native language is to the one you're trying to learn. That provides a big leg up in terms of getting familiar with grammatical constructions and learning new vocab. It also likely provides you a cultural advantage -- I'm willing to bet native French and Spanish speakers think and organize the world in their heads much more similarly to me than the average Mandarin or Arabic speaker. But still, without the pressure immersion provides, even close languages won't be learned. I reject the notion of 'picking up' a language, which implies passivity. It's always part of a concerted effort for practical ends, when it works.
 
Great post, MDAO and it reflects my thoughts exactly.

It is indeed unfortunate that those of us who want to learn a new language, must impose ourselves in often uncomfortable, or awkward situations, in order to gain any conversational proficiency.

It makes you wonder how all these e-books, videos, and courses can fail to point out such an enormous barrier. I've often reminded my french teachers that while I appreciate the importance of grammar and verb conjugation, that my entire goal is to become conversational. Yet, every class is more and more grammar.

I mean, it's great that I can say, "My neighbour had been going to the supermarket, when he came across a person who would become his wife" in french, after racking my brain for five minutes.

But really, will my imperfect future anterior conditional subjunctive phrase come in handy when I'm chatting up a stranger? I somehow doubt it.

When you think about it, likely over half the phrases a person uses in their day-to-day interactions are idiomatic to the language and region. Things like, "This weather sucks" (sucks on what?) or "Let's split a cab" (Like, split it in two?) or "I need to grab a beer" (Is that like buying a beer?) or "Not a problem" (Wait, is there a problem?)

Things we take for granted and don't think about. That's what we need to learn.
 
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Very good points, Cyc. There's a big difference between learning survival conversational X-ese, versus learning formal Y-ish for reading important texts in that language. In most languages, the formal written literary form is widely divergent from the colloquial spoken form that native speakers use to chat about everyday matters. English is no exception. If I wrote a paper letter to someone that simply said, "Jeet jet?" I'd likely get a puzzled response. If I said this to a friend informally, especially one from southeastern Pennsylvania, he'd likely respond, "No, let's get a slice of pizza." without missing a beat. :)

I hear many stories of Westerners who pore over complicated grammatical references for classical literary Arabic, to the point where they can comprehend the Quran and ancient epic poems. But then they hit the streets of Cairo, and locals crack up and tell them they sound like a stuffy old book read aloud.

I find there's a something of an inverse relationship between the sheer volume of published written materials for learning a language, and the ease of finding native speakers willing to help a non-native speaker practice it. I certainly found this true with Japanese -- more textbooks are available for learning this language than most others. But good luck finding a group of native Japanese speakers willing to freely discuss a wide range of topics with you in their native tongue. The proliferation of textbooks is something of an overcompensation for the lack of living human sources of this spoken language.

A good comparison is sports. I don't deny that you can't get good at a sport without having the right gear and knowing the rules, strategy, and general culture surrounding it. But that's just the beginning; you could have all the right equipment and an intimate scholarly knowledge of any given ballgame, but without a group of experienced players willing to play with (and against) you, you'll never truly master it. And honestly, I'd much rather be the guy who walks onto a field of experienced players with no prior knowledge of a game, and learns the rules and strategy the hard way, than the be the guy all geared up to play who can't find someone to play with him.

In my analogy above, the language learning books and media are equivalent to the gear and an understanding of the rules and culture of a sport. They're the necessary foundation. But regular practice with native speakers is where the real learning happens.

...provided we're not talking about a dead and/or scholarly language, which one is learning simply to be able to decode codices. :)
 
I am fluent in English and conversational in Spanish and French. I can also do just fine in a couple of dialects of either of the latter. I am American.

One of the things one must learn is to never discredit one's own ability. Fluency in any language must be backed with practice.

Cyc, have you had any problems with confusing languages with each other?

I highly recommend the free US State Department language modules. I improved so much when I took the modules. I would recommend any of the modules.

Also, what has helped me learn French and Spanish is keeping personal journals in both languages.

Comment ca-va l'aujoudhui? (I don't have accent marks on the present machine, excuse my French? ;))

Language and linguistics are fascinating subjects.
 
Also, what has helped me learn French and Spanish is keeping personal journals in both languages.

Comment ca-va l'aujoudhui? (I don't have accent marks on the present machine, excuse my French? ;))

Language and linguistics are fascinating subjects.

That's a brilliant idea
 
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I took Spanish all through HS and into college. For a while I really struggled to learn, but I started using my Spanish more and more and it stuck better that way. Just reading and studying out loud did the trick. I also watched Spanish lang Tv and tried to translate it. That helped me get better at conversational Spanish.

So in short, for me it was study study study. But totally worth it, especially when I lived in Tx.
 
I personally learn French and German in a non standard setting (immersion) at school from the age of 6 til 17.

I then dropped out of doing French at college, didn't wanna do it academically, so I've lost touch with it, and the German as well, but I've always picked up languages quite quickly.

After that, I dabbled in Spanish, Italian and Japanese, and am soon to start learning Hindi (in fact, I should pick up my book today, and check out google translate for pronun).

At the moment I'm learning Polish through a friend of mine, who I talk to everyday - I'm not taking any classes, because I'm not with her, and I'm just learning at a natural pace.

re: your point #2 - I get exactly what you mean, at the moment I do the same thing when I talk to French and German people, but I would disagree it's better, because your teacher can correct you on how to use the phrase correctly, and then you'll actually learn it, instead of it being rather one sided.

I was told by my French teacher at school, that I was going to be a great linguist in the future, that I thought in French...I didn't believe it at the time, but I now know what he means, because as I've been learning Polish, I sometimes think in Polish.

Learning a 2nd or 3rd language after you're a teenager is ridiculously hard, as you're developing as a child it is very easy, because you are still learning your own language, and therefore structure of language is something that is more apparent, then when you're older you are taught in tenses etc, and it doesn't flow as much.

Michel Thomas/Tomas(sp?), did a lot for rosetta stone I think - and as I understand, this program is good because it's not structured how you would find in most classes, it's given to you how you encounter another language in everyday life - quite random - some things you pick up easily, due to gesture, or facial expressions, or it being similar to words in your language - blah blah blah blah...

I will come back to this thread, as learning new languages is great.
 
does math count?

im terrible at memorizing and dread learning languages.
 
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C/++ and ADA where easy.
assembler was bit harder.
Lol:D
C is fairly easy, but C++ is definitely hard to learn. Advanced usage of (for example) templates takes a lot of time and work to be learned.


As for human languages, my first language is russian(my knowledge in it is better comparing to the average person). My second language is english, which is still far from perfect. I used to study german few years ago in school, but I forgot it almost completely.

It is probably obvious for everyone, but the best way to learn new language - is to use it. Reading and posting on BL + classes significantly improved my knowledge. I must admit, bluelight had greater impact:)

I am not going to study new language, because I'm not going to use it in the foreseeable future.

You won't truly understand your native language, until you study a 2nd one.
I agree mostly, it is sort of amusement to draw parallels between russian and english.:)
 
I'd love to learn Farsi, both out of a long-running interest in Iranian history, and because it would have the double-benefit of fostering a familiarity with the Arabic alphabet, which is of course used in many other languages.
 
I studied spanish in a classroom setting for my undergraduate degree, but I've found that self-directed learning (in my case, using rosetta stone) is much more intuitive and I learn much more quickly from it.

I'm currently endeavoring to learn French using Rosetta Stone, wish me luck! :)
 
English,german,sign language ,
Counting ,swearing and some jokes in Japanese...
Really enjoy learning new stuff and it was never that difficult for me.
My tip is whatever you learn, start reading books or watching films in that language.
 
I am currently studying German at uni. There are 4 contact hours per week in a small classroom setting where we speak German the whole time, learn the grammar and vocab etc. We also have online tests each week. That is pretty much it in terms of the actual organised learning situation.

However my German teacher has emphasised to us right from the beginning that in order to learn a new language you absolutely MUST practice for at least 2 hours every single day. At first this sounded excessive but now in my experience it is absolutely true. It might be in the form of reading books, magazines, websites etc, or watching TV shows or movies (better for getting your pronounciation and conversational language right). Or if you're lucky enough you might be able to actually practise speaking the language with another person a few times a week.

The languages department at my uni has arranged "conversational classes" which are extra-curricular and optional, and unfortunately the class times this semester are during my work hours. But I have a German friend with whom I converse via facebook PMs a couple of times a month, and I'm exposing myself to as much German as possible via online magazines, books, TV shows etc.

So yes, in my opinion and experience, you absolutely cannot effectively pick up a language without having some kind of exposure to it every single day.

When you think about it, likely over half the phrases a person uses in their day-to-day interactions are idiomatic to the language and region. Things like, "This weather sucks" (sucks on what?) or "Let's split a cab" (Like, split it in two?) or "I need to grab a beer" (Is that like buying a beer?) or "Not a problem" (Wait, is there a problem?)

Things we take for granted and don't think about. That's what we need to learn.

Absolutely!! This crosses my mind every single day. It makes me appreciate that English is my first language because honestly, how fucking hard would English be to learn?! I know other languages have regional idioms as well but English would have to be amongst the most complicated languages to learn....right?
 
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