Learning a new language - Your experience

[Cyc]

This thread is to share your experiences with learning a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th, etc) language. This is not a, "How many languages do you know?" thread. For that, please see: here

I'm currently (and for the past year) been studying french extensively. Like most Canadians, I was forced to take it in high school, but as an adult, I quickly lost what little I retained.

So, I decided to pick it back up, and I wanted to share my thoughts, as well as gain some insight from others.

1.) Learning a new language in a classroom setting is bloody tough. When 90% of your daily communication is in English, switching modes for an hour a day never really feels natural.

2.) Understanding is way easier than being understood. I will listen to my teacher speak french, and often answer in english for the sake of brevity. I know I shouldn't do this, but it's often better than fumbling about for the correct use of phrase.

3.) You won't truly understand your native language, until you study a 2nd one. Once I started to examine a second language, I became much more aware of my native language. I'm proud to say that I have become proficient in basic grammar. Sad that this is an accomplishment haha.

4.) Learning at your own pace vs. classroom/testing method vs. immersion. This is a tough one, because I think some people need motivation to keep going, and the classroom certainly provides this, as well as a distraction-free environment in which to learn. Immersion provides the best case scenario, where you're thrust into the culture and you not only have maximum exposure, but also daily motivation. Book-learning at your own pace is something I've never tried, but wouldn't mind some feedback from those who have.

Please add..

 

[ugly]

There is an entire science devoted to studying how second languages are learned. It is what I am working on my master's degree on. Having said that, there is not just one thing or even a top ten list of things I could say about learning a second language. I've had too many classes, read too many articles, seen too much research data, done too much research myself, written too many papers myself, to see "learning a new language" as readily or lightly accessed.

It's definitely HARD to learn a second language.

I believe in the window theory. Little kids up to a certain age can learn a second language effortlessly. Before the kid starts kindergarden. If there are two people in the childs life who both spend a lot of time with the kid and who both speak to the kid in different languages, that kid will pick up both of those languages with no trouble.

Yes there is a little bit of mix up and mistakes and using the languages incorrectly, but I think that is true with learning one and should not be a big enough concern to prevent people from speaking two languages around a kid.

I've spend a lot of time trying to teach English to people who were learning it as a second language. Teaching a new language is about as challenging as learning one, to be frank.

 

[L2R]

i was raised bi-lingual, and even thought my serbo-croat is shit, i have a fair grasp of the different nuances between two euro languages.

i've been trying to go solo with mandarin for a few years now. my wife's language, but her assistance extends only as far as every so often i'll confirm with her i got a word right. i'm most of the way through the last level of the pimsleur system (level 3), and although i find that i have a fair vocabulary when doing my lesson, and an okay one outside, i have still not got to the stage where i am confident in conversing.

part of my strong attraction to spend a substantial time (years) in china is the total immersion you mention. unfortunately, with the cats, that aint gonna happen (i can take them there, but not back).

i wish i had the time/money for classes.

 

[malakaix]

Thankyou for this thread Cyc, it's been an opening insight for me.

I've been very interested in learning German since i was younger, and just last year spent a few weeks in Switzerland and Austria, really developing an appreciation for the language, people and culture. I plan to take lesson's in it soon, im one of those people who really requires the classroom atmosphere to keep the motivation flowing, as difficult as i see this task to be.. the long-terms benefits would be amazing.

My brother started learning Japanese last year, and knows alot of the basics.. but explained how fundamentally different and difficult it is compared to English, he's planning on traveling to Japan sometime this year or the next to immerse himself within the culture to better understand the language.

 

[grimble crumble]

I've been taking French classes for a decent amount of time at my college, was actually starting to get a feel for the language (especially) in reading and writing. This semester though I could not fit French three into my schedule though so I'm hoping to continue on with the learning on my own. It's really kind of dumbe that only two semesters of foriegn language is required for transfer here in the U.S. Cuts you off right when your starting to see the light.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I took about 30 hours of Spanish in undergrad but haven't really spoken it in about 10 years. Obviously, I believe immersion is the best route to learning a new language. I studied abroad in Mexico one summer and I got to the point where I was even dreaming in Spanish. That being said, not everyone is able to study abroad or do total immersion.

If you can't immerse yourself, I feel the classroom is the next best thing especially if the teacher does not allow you to speak your native language in class. I had an awesome Spanish teacher my first 2 semesters taking the language in undergrad and she would not speak nor let anyone speak English, even on the first day of class. That really makes a difference because it forces you to work it out and expand your vocabulary in the other language.

As far as books and computer software, I am not a believer. I'm sure it can help you memorize vocabulary words and such, but to really master a second language I feel you need interaction. You need someone there cracking the whip, correcting your mistakes, and praising you when you get it right. You can't get that with books or computer programs.

As far as understanding, I have the opposite problem of Cyc. I can think carefully and choose my words to make sure someone understands me, but understanding native Spanish speakers is very difficult for me mainly because they talk so fast. I normally have to ask someone to slow down and repeat what they said.

Cool thread %)

 

[Nibblez]

Learning Mandarin was quite possibly one of the hardest things I've ever done. The problem with learning a second language sometimes is that the language you choose to learn ends up being conceptually different from your primary language. That just makes things infinitely harder because now it's no longer an issue of translation but a matter of conception.

Becoming fluent in Mandarin has altered my reality to the point that it has changed the way my brain thinks.

 

[Cyc]

^ Nice! What was your approach to learning Mandarin? What did you find most difficult about that method of learning?

 

[Cyc]

One thing I'm finding difficult, is the translation approach when trying to speak. When I'm stuck on a phrase, I tend to want to break it down word-for-word, while I know damn well that the expression isn't able to be translated that way.

It's frustrating when you don't have a complete vocabulary, because when you hit a dead end, you have to try to find a different way to express what you mean.

 

[Nibblez]

^ Nice! What was your approach to learning Mandarin? What did you find most difficult about that method of learning?

My approach was complete and utter immersion. I went to China and stayed there for the whole summer two years in a row. I found it to be very effective. When you immerse yourself completely, sometimes just going out and observing people in public can be very conducive to your efforts to learn the language. You can watch them interact with others while speaking in their language, and it helps you link actions/interactions with phrases, words, etc. so even if you can only pick up bits and pieces, their actions can fill in the gaps and help you conceptualize. Also helps you pick up the contextual nuances of the language a lot faster.

The most difficult part of learning that way was the feeling of uncertainty when you're smack-dab in the middle of a country without a firm grasp of the language. It got better over time though, and what helped me overcome that uncertainty was the idea that uncertainty should be embraced and not feared. But that's a concept for another thread.

 

[kaywholed]

I learned french in immersion. I found that to be an awesome way. Later on in life when immersed in other languages you pick them up quick, for conversation.

 

[hobhead]

i may not be the only one that failed language in H.S and then went on to fail immersion in the peace corps in-country language program for us to use in teaching our trades .

the country is maylasia and english known by practically all the citizens in cities.
thus i was able to teach boys basic metal working using a mix of the two lingos .

i am too thick to learn a language unless my life depended on it.

 

[Belisarius]

Something no one has really mentioned yet is what I think is the most important: passion. You simply won't learn another language (at least, not well) if you don't care on a fundamental level about it. This is why someone can become literate in Sanskrit or Attic Greek, languages for which immersion and whatnot are simply not options.

 

[kaywholed]

Something no one has really mentioned yet is what I think is the most important: passion.

Indeed, passion will give you the patience to master languages.

Also knowing about communication and being an effective communicator is key. Even with language barriers people using effective communication techniques will be able to get their message across and verify it was understood.

 

[K-Dazed]

When I was learning French (still am, 8th year) the major thing I kept getting stuck on was the vocabulary, and like Cyc said, actually being understood. It's easy to memorize all the grammar tid-bits (especially for French I'd say - a lot of it is very straight forward in comparison to English), but when you don't know the word for the object you're trying to talk about, or the place you're trying to go, it gets very difficult trying to convey what you're trying to say. I can read and listen to French and understand it perfectly, but I'm still waaay past the point where I could have a fluent "meaningful" conversation in French.

I do plan on taking courses to learn another language in University. I was thinking potentially Spanish, German, Thai, Mandarin or Arabic.

 

[Nibblez]

When I was learning French (still am, 8th year) the major thing I kept getting stuck on was the vocabulary, and like Cyc said, actually being understood. It's easy to memorize all the grammar tid-bits (especially for French I'd say - a lot of it is very straight forward in comparison to English), but when you don't know the word for the object you're trying to talk about, or the place you're trying to go, it gets very difficult trying to convey what you're trying to say. I can read and listen to French and understand it perfectly, but I'm still waaay past the point where I could have a fluent "meaningful" conversation in French.

I do plan on taking courses to learn another language in University. I was thinking potentially Spanish, German, Thai, Mandarin or Arabic.

If you do decide to learn Mandarin, my advice to you would be to be realistic about your expectations. Granted, you may have a talent for learning languages that I am not aware of, but we're talking about a language that is different from English at a fundamental level. We're not talking about slight differences in syntax, verb tense, use of adverbs, etc. We're talking about a language that technically has no clear cut indicators of adjective use, is heavily dependent on cultural context, and differs vastly between spoken and written forms.

Granted, spoken Mandarin can be easy to pick up at times due to one of the quirks of the spoken language being that you can typically communicate the same (or similar) meanings with several different set of words/expressions. The problem will be that you cannot rely on this when working on written assignments since the graders will probably be relatively strict about use of slang and "know what I mean?" types of sentences/phrases that are generally considered acceptable in spoken conversation. The transition between learning the language from a textbook to utilizing it in everyday conversation is also somewhat of a doozy. The reason is because the use of slang and contextual language is extremely prolific in spoken Mandarin. It's virtually impossible to speak like you are reading out of a book/novel in Mandarin without earning some very weird looks. I don't know if the same can be said of English.

 

[Medi57]

I thought that Farsi was a dead language?

 

[grimble crumble]

any fluent french speakers in here?

I have a question. does the written form vary that much at all from the spoken. im finding the two are very similar which is a plus for learning it.

 

[Cyc]

For french, the written form is fairly close to spoken.

There are a few rules to remember, however.

- Plural verbs ending in -ent; this is not pronounced.
For example:
- Ils sortent au restaurant - They are going out to the restaurant (-ent not pronounced)
- Words ending in consonants are usually latent or mute unless the following word begins with a vowel. This is known as liason and is pronounced.
For example:
- Je suis allé au cinema - I went to the movies (s is pronounced)
- Je suis passè devant la librairie - I passed in front of the library (s is not pronounced)
- 's' is pronounced like 'z' "Je suiz allé"
- accent aigu 'é' is pronounced like a hard 'eh'
- accent grave 'è' is pronounced like a softer 'eah'

Just a few off the top of my head

 

[socko]

Like most Canadians, I too took highschool French. We were taught the written form and I am proficient enough to read novels and the paper in that language. Unfortunately, speaking was not emphasized. Even worse, pronunciation does not even remotely correspond to spelling. So, whenever I go to Quebec, I will try French but I usually get lost and have revert to English.

Spanish, on the other hand, I have had a much better time with. On a recent flight (around 12 hours) to South America, I crammed into memory a vocabulary list of several hundred words and phrases. I haven't had any exposure to Spanish before that. With what I learned on the plane and what I picked up down there (a lot more), even when I was in the bush where no one spoke English, I could get by (ask directions, read signs, rent a room, and understand a little bit of conversations.)