N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
"3,4-methylenedioxy" analogue of propylhexedrine: a good idea?
StaySedated
Bluelighter
it won't kill you if you don't use too much. i know it seems like a drug with effects that synergize in a dangerous way(like PMA and related drugs), but even PMA won't kill you if you know your dose.
at safe doses, a drug like this could be an amazing treatment for depression, social anxiety, P.T.S.D, and other uses.
MAO-A(tranylcypromine)breaks down NE and 5ht, MAO-B breaks down DA/PEAs. They're all PEAs. PEA is Ethyl, AMP is Propyl, Tranyl is Cyclopropyl, Cypenamine is Pentyl or Cyclopentyl(dont feel like looking). They all have the possibility of becoming a serotogenic stimulants. I would stay away from using Tranyl unless it's atleast converted to a ketone as that will make it more preferential to MAO-B. Cypenamine seems like it would yeild a potent compound but probly something more like MDPV but perhaps a lil more serotogenic, who knows, but I don't personally think propylhexedrine has anything special to offer, it's not like u can just tack on a 3,4-MDO to it as it is already so what would be the point. I think Tranyl would be better suited for a basis of DOX type compounds however they might b a lil unpredictable person to person like the 2ctxs and whatnot, for whatever reason Tranyl is the only one that has the MAOI fx
If u want an idea for a new legalish MDMA like stimulant that wouldn't b too hard to make, (i'll probly catch flack for this) i'd suggest 4-MethylDeprenyl or 3,4-MDODeprenyl. It would convert to 4-MMA which is NOT the same as PMA or PMMA and at lower doses potentiate itself and at higher doses it will potentiate the SERT/NE fx. I don't know how slow the conversion rate is or if the parent compound is active on it's own but I know D-Deprenyl is i'd imagine it would work out. I don't know the active dose of 4-MMA either
This of course would end up in disaster if it were to hit the RC market but for responsible personal use it might b real nice
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pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
4 methyl amphetamine/ 4 methyl methamphetamine was very neurotoxic . this drug was the reason why F&B though mephedrone would have bad effects![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
dread
Bluelighter
SAR prediction is not as simple as "let's put a methylenedioxy on chemical X and see if it's the new MDMA"... if it was, don't you think someone would have done it already.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
This is true of any drug. Given how tricky the combination of maob inhibition and concurrent stimulant use can be when distinct agents are used to calibrate such activities separately, combining these two activities in one chemical makes things completely unworkable. Adding 5ht release to the mix severely exacerbates the risk of hyperthermia.
What does relevant SAR suggest? We know that the modification severely potentiates 2c-series chemicals while drastically enhancing their selectivity for 5ht2a. We also know that the same modification drastically reduces the potency of 2cs' alpha-methylated cousins. Can we generalize to "a phenethylamine with bulky ring substitutions + a naked ethyl branch = potentiation via the NBOMe modification?"
ebola
StaySedated
Bluelighter
it wouldn't be like MDPV, as MDPV is a reuptake inhibitor and a methylenedioxy compound of cypenamine would be a releasing agent, and due to its similarity to methamphetamine it would likely be a strong SERT, DA, and NA releasing agent more similar to MDMA/MDA than MDPV.
I thought the bad fx of 4-MMC was from it's metabolite 4-methylephedrine. Are all the 4-alkyl-AMPs vasopressors? As for Cypenamine, i wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that one. NBOMe-Mescaline appeared to be VERY similar to mesc but with a potency more comparable to TMA
StaySedated
Bluelighter
steering away from propylhexedrine related stimulants, how about methylenedioxy compounds from these amphetamine like drugs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzphetamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenmetrazine
-wikipedia/phenmetrazine
-wikipedia/benzphetamine
both of these stimulants are phenethylamines, benzphetamine is an amphetamine, and both have been used in medicine(phenmetrazine= Preludin, "black beauties"; is kinda like the methaqualone of perscription stimulants) and are controlled substances. phentermine, a drug closely related to phenmetrazine(but less potent), already has two related methylenedioxy compounds(MDPH and MDMP). heres some info on MDPH from wikipedia:
a methylenedioxy compound with phenmetrazine(stronger than phentermine) would likely be an excellent empathogen. a stimulant that has been prefered by users to amphetamines and is a phenethylamine would make a good parent drug. however, MDMP(parent drug methylphentermine) was said be to be only slightly active and similar to MDMA, so one would think that phenmetrazine(not a methyl ring added version) would produce a desired compound. if a MD substitution of the weaker phenteramine was similar to MDA, a MD substitution of phenmetrazine would likely have better effects(more likened to MDMA). so "3,4-methylenedioxyphenmetrazine"(MDPM) could work.
now benzphetamine itself is not a strong stimulant(but is said to cause vivid hallucinations), but it breaks down mostly into amphetamine and methamphetamine to get it's effects, creating a "time-release" effect. if a MD compound with benzphetamine was made, it would likely end up breaking down mostly to MDA and MDMA as well as a small portion of "MD-benzphetamine"(don't know what effect that will have, but it would either cause hallucinations like the parent drug or it wouldn't be very active). so "3,4-methylenedioxybenzphetamine" would likely be a "time-released" MDA/MDMA with the small added effect of whatever a MD substution of benzphetamine would be(once again, benzphetamine itself is said to cause vivid hallucinations so the added effect of it could add on to the hallucinogenic effects of the MDA/MDMA the compound would mostly break down into).
unfortunately, both of these compounds could fall under the Federal Analogue Act as they would be related in structure to a lot of controlled substances. however benzphetamine is schedule 3 and the Federal Analogue Act only applies to schedule 1 and 2 substances, but idk as it would be similar in structure to MDA/MDMA and related illegal drugs and it may be subject to exception due to it being an amphetamine and being similar to other tighter controlled amphetamines.
*sorry that this post is long and kinda off topic(steering away from propylhexedrine, etc.) but many said propylhexedrine is a waste of time so i set out to find something worthwhile. 
StaySedated
Bluelighter
cypenamine isn't a phenethylamine, it is like propylhexedrine(propylhexedrine actually replaced cypenamine because it was actually safer 
). but anyway, you're bound to run into the same problems trying to make a MD compound out of cypenamine as you would with propylhexedrine.
and yes, all 4-alkyl-amphetamines are vasopressors and they're all relatively more dangerous and toxic compared to other amphetamine compounds.
StaySedated
Bluelighter
actually, i think stimulant effects and MAOI effects in one drug makes thing safer than combining two drugs with different effects. selegiline and tranylcypromine are both releasing agents and MAOIs, and are considered safe at theraputic doses. PMA and some related drugs are also both, and if you look past the hype surrounding people who had toxic effects because of careless use or overdosing thinking it was MDMA, they can be used recreationaly safely with pleasant effects(i have used low doses of PMA without toxic effects). but combonations of separate MAOIs and stimulants, even at low doses, usually end up in a bad place.
i don't know why it seems to be like that, but one could speculate that the two different drugs would vary too much in factors such as metabolism, mechanism, potency of respective effects, and other factors not likely to occur with just one drug. basicaly, one drug with the combined effects would be more controllable, work safer with each other, and be more predictable. once again, i'm just speculating and giving my thoughts on the subject and i could be wrong.
i think it is safe to use one drug with combined stimulant and MAOI effects at the right dose. you are right that SERT release increases the risk for toxicity esp. if the same drug is a MAOI, but no more so than PMA and it's analogues. a drug like this in the hands of an ignorant user would be a disaster(hopefully nothing like this ever hits the RC market 
), but a responsible drug user who starts low and knows how the drug works and of it's consequences, everything should be just fine.
cypenamine is NOTHING like cyclopentamine or propylhexedrine. It is Phenethylamine with the ethyl replaced with cyclopentyl. The other 2 have the phenyl position replaced with cycloalkyls making them totally different molecularly. Getting something resembling the PEA based skeleton to be a stim isn't hard, getting it to b a decent entactogen/empathogen is a bit more trickier. Shulgin made the Benzphetamine analog of MDA in Pihkal. It wasn't very active if at all which is strange. Perhaps a larger dose would be needed as i'm not sure the rate of conversion to MDA etc... or maybe he should have injected/or snorted it. Look at all the MDA/MDMA analogs he made, virtually none were very active but if u were to take away the 3,4-MDO they'd all b decent stims
StaySedated
Bluelighter
how about phenmetrazine? a 3,4-MDO analog with this as a parent drug would likely be active as phentermine(less potent than phenmetrazine) has been used(MDPH) and was compaired to MDA.
so a 3,4-MDO analog of the stronger phenmetrazine would likely be similar but better.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Why? Achieving the correct levels of mao-inhibition (particular controlling cross-over from MAOB into MAOA (or vice versa)) distinct from levels of monoaminergic release proves key for this combination's safety.
The level of monoaminergic release caused by selegiline is negligible, even considering active metabolites.
I am. Look, even, at Shulgin's extremely unfavorable trip-report of PMA.
...
I like your speculation around phenmetrazine and recovered look at MDPH better though. 
ebola
atara
Bluelighter
MD-phenmetrazine would probably be like MD-methylaminorex, which was not so hot.
I think that would just give you the methylenedioxy Powerpuff Girls.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
sugar, spice, a 3,4-methylene-dioxy substitution, and everything nice!
It's my understanding that the phenmetrazine SAR is relatively uncharted, and thus analogy from phenethylamines is somewhat plausible. I would like to be shown incorrect (but a bit less than I'd like to be shown correct ).
ebola
dread
Bluelighter
MD-phenmetrazine would probably be something similar to Methylone, but less potent.
StaySedated
Bluelighter
i don't think so because the parent drug of MD-phenmetrazine is a better stimulant than methylone's. MD-phenmetrazine would probably be more likened to MDMA or MDA than methylone.
