'God' but no afterlife? An under-discussed topic

[roadkill barbie]

OK so I was going to try and just post a belief under the sticky above,, y'know are you 1 2 or 3, but I feel as Ive not read the whole of the thread but guess this is a position that doesn't necesarily fit into any of the three, or at least most peoples perceptions of the 3, I would like to stress that perhaps the emphasis put on a belief in God, religion or spirituality tends to be associated with a belief in an afterlife,,and this is questionable. I'm personally quite interested in whether any would count themselves as either 1's or 2's,, yet still believe that theirs probably no afterlife- its an approach thats given very little debate,, at least that I've come across- but one that raises fundamentally interesting questions such as,, could and would a person 'forgive' God/ Buddha etc,, if there were no afterlife,, and isnt most religion and spiritualities promises of an afterlife merely preying on humans fear of mortality? If one knew there to be no afterlife regardless of a God - would they modify their behaviour, especially towards others? Personally I find the belief in ,, hmm,, lets say a 'great beyond' without the belief in an afterlife to be a challenging yet wholly beneficial viewpoint,, and if one could still try to do more harm than good devoid in a belief in God and/or afterlife,, howcome so many organised religions feel this would not be looked on favourably if their were such a deity?
I just feel that belief in 'something' and the afterlife are often synonymous with each other for no good reason. Perhaps thats just because I feel a return to nothing/ pushing up daisies seems like things could be worse, I mean I've gotta be honest I know I could well be wrong on God/ and/or the afterlife and though I do have faith in ""God"", the idea of a lake of hellfire for anyone is one I just find ridiculous scaremongering. Humans putting words in their Gods mouth etc,, if you wanna see hell just tour the 3rd world,, but anyways -
Maybe its just a pragmatic approach that works for me,, but still,, it's one thats not discussed much.. Still,, Im new to this part of the forum so apologies if its already been discussed without my knowledge

 

[Garden Man]

The two are commonly associated, but that doesn't make it so. The notion of the afterlife is often compensation for earthly failures. Personally, I find it to be quite absurd. Yet, I do not deny, nor agree that a God could exist. If anyone believes in the afterlife, good for them, it's not like we can really prove that it's not there but; if anyone uses the notion of an afterlife promiseland, or a condemnation and eternal pain as a threat to get believers, well, that's where it gets so ridiculous. But sadly, alot of evangelicals tend to do just that. So when one rebels the theory of an afterlife, they automatically disregard God aswell. But fundamentally, it's entirely up to the individual whether they believe in God and the afterlife, or just God. Frankly, it's a pretty hot topic for a debate.
I think God is us, the ego. It's primarily an existentialistic thought, but who knows, there could be a God beyond substance & matter, space & time. Don't know about an afterlife though, it's a pretty ancient view.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I think it might have been Kant who said that any person's worldview can ultimately be reduced to whether he answers yes or no to each of three questions:
1. Is God real?
2. Is freedom real?
3. Is the self real?
These constitute three independent variables. That is, one can say yes to any one and no to the other two, or vice versa, or yes to all three, or no to all three.

I'd say questions regarding the afterlife supervene upon number 3: the reality or unreality of the self as a continuous and enduring entity.

Buddhists and Jains (and others) believe in some sort of continuity of the conscious 'I' after the present physical body is gone, but not in any gods. Jews believe in God (Well actually, something like half of them do today, but traditionally they all do.), but they have only a vague and largely neglected set of beliefs concerning any afterlife.

 

[sirmoonie]

That would be awesome, if true. You could just thumb your nose at Him, like get completely ripped on Sunday mornings, and what the hell is He going to do you? He has no everlasting hell burning to use as extortion, and no heavenly salvation as a bribe. It would really equalize things with Him.

 

[Garden Man]

I think it might have been Kant who said that any person's worldview can ultimately be reduced to whether he answers yes or no to each of three questions:
1. Is God real?
2. Is freedom real?
3. Is the self real?

What work is this from?

I'd kinda like to read what it in depth >.<

 

[girlygrrl]

My beliefs are:

There is no afterlife. When your physical body dies your soul return to the collective consciousness that you can call God or you can call your Higher Self or whatever.

Then you can re-incarnate back into human or animal form, or stay in the collective for however long.

The collective is ethereal and is made up of human souls. Time doesn't exist in the ethereal so you could re-incarnate into the past if you want.

I am kind of the "know more god or no more god?" philosophy, I think that it is probably healthier to view oneself as part of a larger collective than to view oneself as inferior to some ultimate being.

I think that we're meant to be "immortal" and only age due to stress or due to the collective getting bored with us. That when you "awaken" you become "born again" or whatever, and then earth becomes your personal heaven or hell based upon the life you led up to the point of your "awakening".

I also think that you can get severed from the collective and become lost, which can happen if you do something really harmful like commit murder, rape, or pedophilia without remorse. Otherwise generally you'll keep reincarnating until you "awaken" sufficiently.

Just my thoughts, I consider myself a "spiritual atheist" for what it's worth, I believe in a higher power but I am also one with said higher power, I believe us to be one organism so I think it's kind of pointless to waste time with dogma.

 

[roadkill barbie]

first up guys, whoa -thanks for bringing such diverse and valid viewpoints to this post,, I'm gonna have to get back to many points like that of Kant's. Points like that of being a spiritual atheist and its connotations as girrygrrl see's it etc are enlightening.

I myself would, if not for experiences I'm not going into, probably be agnostic, but primarily humanist. Un/fortunately I can't take this stance as personal experience points (just) me towards belief and a relationship (for better OR worse) with ""God"", and even though this could be critiqued as delusional I believe many would see my logic,,even if my conclusions may include 'it' to be a bit of an asshole, and perhaps not all powerfull or even having any human characteristics, maybe just a system (so sue me ""God""). Anyway - thats for another day.
I thought a first point to bring up is in response to Sirmoonie's great response " if true (to there being a God but no afterlife). You could just thumb your nose at Him, like get completely ripped on Sunday mornings, and what the hell is He going to do you? He has no everlasting hell burning to use as extortion, and no heavenly salvation as a bribe. It would really equalize things with Him "
I laughed and completely agree to a point,, I mean "God" aint stopping me getting trashed whether Sunday or not, I'm not sure "God" would even give a shit about this next to,, say, treating others kindly,, equally ""God"" might not give a shit about whether you believe in it or not - I myself think this 'belief in God' point is only of major importance to humans involved in their tribalistic Religions, not "God",, though this is just my humble opinion, I,, unlike many, am intent on not putting words in "Gods" mouth.
But - what if you found out you yourself,, yup - you reading this now, was actually "God"? You loved every one of us and knew every one of our thoughts and deeds, but even as "God" you didn't think,, or worse knew there to be no afterlife? Perhaps this would riddle God with grief and sadness, perhaps this all knowing 'thing' would hope for a higher "God" to grant humans the wishes 'it' could not? Perhaps though this very fact would enrage certain people within Organised religion, we could and should (if this theoretically were the case) feel sympathy for "God", who loved us all just the same?
Back to my thoughts on Sirmoonie's point - like I said I'll get trashed and do as I please with my body when I want, screw religious fearmongering and dogma's. But (if your still understanding this viewpoint!?) ,, would knowing such a fact, as a human,, make you less inclined towards doing good to others? I'm sure some would see it as a greenlight to become selfish assholes,, since there would be no 'Ultimate judgement", only the laws set-up by humans,, but maybe others would still see doing as to others as one would like to be treated as being just as crucial, if not even moreso?
As mentioned by another I'm thankfully not alone in seeing this theoretical viewpoint as a hot topic (many thanks) - if only for the moral questions it generates.
And of course the spiritual ones still. For instance if you now knew there to be such a being that loved you but couldn't guarantee an afterlife, your relationship to "it" may well change,, but ultimatelly you would still be you, able to do to yourself and others what you wanted, with "God" as your witness. Perhaps some would see themselves understandably as 'gods' themselves, but the fundamental point of good and evil as I see it would still remain..
Like I've said I for one have a relationship with/ 'faith' (an ambiguous term?) in God, if not an afterlife - how the hell would I know! Death is a privelidged mystery to me. However I am very interested and a general defender of the Anton Lavey school of (completely misunderstood generally) "Satanism", - yet I still find some of their arguments (as well as philosophers) about good and bad being mere constructs dependent on what side of the coin your perceiving things as being very suspect.

Again thanks for the inspiring replies guys - I have much to learn and comtemplate thanks to you. Hope this thread keeps running, and all POV's contemplated.

P.S (edit) - Girrlygrrl, I find your reply to be absolutely superb - and as a belief system one I hope to / wish I could embrace - it's just that at the start of your post you say " My beliefs are - there is no afterlife" ,, but after this you clearly,, to me alone - define what I consider to be an afterlife. So while I hope for our sakes in your belief turning out to be correct, I must stress that my idea of 'no afterlife' seems to conflict.. My idea of no afterlife,, (and contradictorily this may be seen as an 'afterlife' in itself!) would be death being the End, a fade to nothing, completely zero EXCEPT for ones body feeding worms, vultures (etc - personally I'd like to be fed to pigs then composted on a vegetable patch) or else incinerated (again here I'd wish that my lifeless corpse be used as heating / fuel)...
Needless to say I hope you understand by this my definition of no afterlife.. Complete non-existence...


Another very contentious subject to bring to the table (screw it!) is that I believe that though Buddhism teaches reincarnation, yet encourages all to " “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – a direct favourite quote from Buddha himself I believe -

anyway, though traditional Buddhism encourages a belief in the reincarnational system not too dissimilar to what you describe I think,, I believe the traditional Pali transcription of the word Nirvana, or in Pali form - निब्बान (Nibbāna) means,, and this is strictly quoting wikipedia,, "blowing out" - (to extinguish totally???).
Perhaps this gives some indication of my indifference to an afterlife perhaps being a good thing?

In a quote I'm gonna semi-jovially (dead seriously) throw into the mix just for the heck of it, a man called Kurt Cobain, originally of a band called 'Fecal matter' yet better known for his band "Nirvana",, on his last LP before suicide "In Utero" sang on "very ape" perhaps my favourite lyrics -

"Out of the ground,,, Into the sky,,, Out of the sky,, Into the ground, Out of the ground,, Into the sky,, Out of the sky - Into the dirt"

This lyric, and the Buddhist questioning I've mentioned, perfectly encapsulates (just) my interpretation of an afterlife, and I can embrace this postively.. And if I'm wrong, well, either way I think it best to try and be a decent human being towards others anyway,,and try to right my wrongs regardless - and if there was an afterlife above the one I've just hinted at, (pushing up daisies etc),, BONUS!!

 

[girlygrrl]

^^ I know that my "spiritual atheism" seems kind of like a paradox, but I think at least for me this whole god/afterlife thing is kind of a paradox to begin with. LOL.

I believe the way I do because of having far too many "spooky" coincidences to where it is "too coincidental to be coincidence" and also feeling invisible forces save me from certain death in multiple cases.

So I figured that instead of thinking that either I have supernatural powers or there is some god watching over me, I've come to the conclusion that perhaps both are correct, that the god watching over me is actually me too, in a way that one's hand would feel if one's hand became self-aware as an individual being.

 

[roadkill barbie]

Wow, yeah lifes journey throws us some really interesting curveballs huh? Thanks so much for sharing.
I used to live as a child in a very old ex-orphanage,, there would regularly be knocks on the door of my bedroom, which freaked me out, then one night I woke up from sleeping on the floor as I'd lent my cousin the bed and came face to face with the ghost of a female child sitting on the edge of the bed staring straight at me,, a 'classic' white glowing figure of pretty high definition,, I absolutely froze and rather than running out I pretended to go back to bed in total shock.. Maybe I could have convinced myself I was hallucinating or whatever excuse you can give to something you see that seemed plain as day,, but as I mentioned, the knocking continued to the point whereby on one occasion I was again sleeping on the floor in the exact same place I saw the ghost (this may or may not have been before the ghost incident actually, a little sketchy on that) - anyway this time I was alone and the knocking happened and I decided to take a stand so I said something along the lines of "I'm not afraid of you" and pulled my underpants down in defiance,,, at which point the door went from completely closed to open with no one behind it in a second.. Now that to me was even more terrifying,, there's no way I could have 'just imagined that'.
I guess I remain in a state of shock,, or at least not being able to fathom it - and such paranormal activities, for me at least dont convince me of an afterlife,, which must sound kinda weird. Maybe I really should consider taking your ideas very seriously indeed, as there's been many other 'spooky' things that've happened, for instance I see orbs quite a lot, and my childhood in general was extremely bizarre, but not something I'm ready to talk about to anyone yet,, and I'm 30 already!.
Maybe my perspective on there not necesarily being an afterlife despite this makes me think of my life as it is as all the more important. Maybe it's just I'm lucky that mortality doesn't phase me.
Similar to your view,, a man on youtube called professoranton has suggested that we could possibly - in a way be like the fruits of "God" - in other words "God" is only in existence through our shared collective experiences,, it is as one with all experiences of life,, while there's any life on this or other planets "God" is able to be,, whereas if no life forms existed,, God would itself cease to be.. Food for thought certainly.
One thing's for sure, life is riddled with paradoxes!
Thanks again. R.B

 

[Vader]

I think it might have been Kant who said that any person's worldview can ultimately be reduced to whether he answers yes or no to each of three questions:
1. Is God real?
2. Is freedom real?
3. Is the self real?
These constitute three independent variables. That is, one can say yes to any one and no to the other two, or vice versa, or yes to all three, or no to all three.

I disagree that one can believe in (the biblical) God and also in freedom. An omniscient creator knows before we are even born the exact path our lives will take. How, then, can we be said to be free? Adam and Eve never had a chance; God must have known before creation that the Fall would happen.

I'd say questions regarding the afterlife supervene upon number 3: the reality or unreality of the self as a continuous and enduring entity.

Again, I disagree. Why must the self be continuous and enduring in order to be real? I believe that the self ceases to exist at death.

 

[malakaix]

Cogito ergo sum; I think therefore i am.

If you are without thought, you are without 'self'.. just 'being'. A state of omnipresence, death signifies this ceasing of thought, the expunging of self and the awareness of being. I often view the representation of Jesus, as an individual who understood this.. and conveyed it as best he could to an audience who interpreted it as best they could.

Most if not all religions tend to center around this simple concept, yet in my experience to truly understand it, one must experience it themselves.. interpreting an experience from another person can only lend you so far in terms of 'understanding'. This is why everything anyone says anywhere, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Ohmmm

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I disagree that one can believe in (the biblical) God and also in freedom. An omniscient creator knows before we are even born the exact path our lives will take. How, then, can we be said to be free? Adam and Eve never had a chance; God must have known before creation that the Fall would happen.

There's actually a pretty rich body of philosophical literature about how God could grant mortal beings free will. I'm not well versed in this, but I know it's there, and many theologians have found it convincing. On the other hand, there are also plenty of Abrahamic faith communities (Calvinists and Presbyterians, for example) that don't believe in free will at all, and hold basically the same position you do.

Again, I disagree. Why must the self be continuous and enduring in order to be real? I believe that the self ceases to exist at death.

That wasn't my point. I didn't word it well, but all I was trying to say is that questions about the afterlife essentially boil down to questions about the nature and reality of the self.

 

[Vader]

There's actually a pretty rich body of philosophical literature about how God could grant mortal beings free will. I'm not well versed in this, but I know it's there, and many theologians have found it convincing.

Theologians have found a lot of things convincing which I really don't think stand up to analysis. If God can give mortal beings free will, then he can't be omniscient, at least not in the sense that I understand that term. Trying to reconcile the two claims seems like, to quote William James, a "quagmire of evasion".

That wasn't my point. I didn't word it well, but all I was trying to say is that questions about the afterlife essentially boil down to questions about the nature and reality of the self.

I suspected I had misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

[girlygrrl]

Deities grant free will because it makes life more interesting.

If you are everything then it gets boring for awhile. But if you create many beings that have their own consciousnesses and free will then it becomes much more interesting.

The only way to gain true wisdom is to make mistakes and to gain insights from them.

Probably the creator was not looking to tell everyone what to do; the creator was bored and lonely and looking to evolve new spiritual beings up to the same level so that there would be many to share experience with.

I think this illusion of monotheism has run its course and now there are new stories to prove certain points, and that creation myths are just that, fictional stories to make a point.

What is really going on IMO is that we are spiritual beings and we are evolving and the real process is waking up to know that you are part of something greater while still retaining your own uniqueness.

I think things got screwed up because some of those who became enlightened looked down upon the rest of us and considered us slaves instead of potentials for enlightenment. So they set up control mechanisms to keep us busy while they play in their own vision of utopia.

A better way is for as many people to become enlightened as possible and for them to work together in cooperation and harmony to create a "wetopia".

 

[Vader]

Deities grant free will because it makes life more interesting.

Boredom seems like a deeply human trait that I never considered a deity to be capable of having. Then again, God gets angry a lot, and you wouldn't expect that either, so who knows.

 

[thujone]

i don't know why anyone believes there is an afterlife. what we refer to as the soul isn't an esoteric thing. it's all part of the brain, which happens to be organic matter and will decay like all other organic matter and transfer whatever energy remains into the earth where the environment will utilize it to fertilize flowers.

it's hard to rationalize the belief that your brain is going to somehow transmit your consciousness to some noncorporeal computer network so you can think again and live after your physical body dies.

this sort of reminds me of that quandry of whether or not we will ever be able to transfer our minds into a robot shell. i were able to transfer my memories and thoughts, would my consciousness/soul/spirit be capable of physically leaving my brain or would the robot version just be a copy of me with a separate consciousness?

if you believe in an afterlife you have to believe that the consciousness is indeed esoteric and that our bodies are merely renting it to experience this physical life. personally, i have never felt any sensation that would convince me my consciousness does, can, or will exist anywhere outside of my skull. people who do invest a lot of thought into believing in an afterlife are generally insane and lose the ability to truly enjoy this life as much as they aught to, if the spirit IS esoteric i mean, because if that is true then we are here for a reason and i'm sure that reason doesn't involve thinking about what's next or we would probably already know what's next.

 

[girlygrrl]

^^ Well I used to believe that way, but after having a few dozen near-death experiences then quite frankly I *know* that I'm a "spiritual being" having a "human experience". I don't have "faith" that I might be, I have knowledge that I am.

I don't believe there is an "afterlife", there is just being ethereal in the collective or being here on earth in a human avatar.

Earth can be heaven or hell depending on your perspective and what choices you make.

Boredom seems like a deeply human trait that I never considered a deity to be capable of having. Then again, God gets angry a lot, and you wouldn't expect that either, so who knows.

Well I don't agree with Yahweh's approach to things...wrath is not becoming of a God.

Even Yahweh admits that there are many Gods within his own ten commandments:

"thou shall have no 'other Gods' before me..."

 

[Vader]

^I certainly don't think that that was the intended reading. I imagine that the Hebrew translates to something more like "besides me".

 

[girlygrrl]

^ Well I consider murderous intent to be part of the .666 virus, so when Yahweh goes around starting "holy wars" then that tells me that the bible has gotten very corrupted.

Quite frankly I don't know why humanity doesn't just read more inspirational material like "chicken soup for the soul" or something instead of dogmatic material like the bible.

When one is in alignment with a deity they can get all that bibley stuff dump directly into their head anyway and then you don't need to put faith in some third party group of humans to water down or manipulate The Message.

 

[roadkill barbie]

OK so I'm gonna throw in some kinda interpretation as I consider this life to be and the nature of ""God"", as you know I have a relationship with "it" but am not convinced of an afterlife. I regard death as a great blessing, and believe that ""God"" cant be all powerful - perhaps s/he's just hitting puberty and realises s/he/ it's messed up loads just like humans,,fuck it's just a thought but lol !
But yeah following on from girrlygrrl's point on the Bible, yeah, basically,, although a few good points were made in the Bible,, it's a terrible read,, and I certainly dont believe it to be the definitive word of "God". One only has to look at how it came to be edited and look at the edited out but in my opinion much more credible Gnostic Gospels and Nag Hamadi texts etc. discovered in much more credible ways that point to an enlightenment through ones own experiences and essence of divine - or as Bill Hicks once said in a rant about how stupid the Christian trinity was, " "There's a Living God who will talk directly fuckin' to you...not thru the pages of the Bible that forgot to mention dinosaurs!" But yeah girrlygrrl,, biblical texts suck ass next to, say, the Dao de Jing, Hellenistic philosophy (Stoics/Cynics/Epicurians), chicken soup for the soul,Nietzsche, loads guys,, hell even the genius songs that speak directly to you trump the Bible anyday!

Whats for certain in my opinion is that if there were a God it would know your every thought and deed up till the present,, but has given us free will so is in no way all powerfull, and doesnt know, or has chosen not to know the future- but loves us all just the same,, regardless of faith in whatever "God" is,, perhaps much more of interest to this thing is our actions in this life given free will. Which is why I think the religious notions of "prayer" to be ridiculous,, if you want to believe in it it's right there in your thoughts waiting for you to talk to it anytime,, even if it's just a thoughtfull rant you could communicate with it anytime,, in bed, on the bus, doing the washing up,, whatever. And here is where turning to philosophy, as an art of living well is crucial imho.

This is a bit mixed up but I prefer the Stoic / Taoist interpretation of "God" as the Logos,, or flow of life.. For instance imagine yourself to be a fish going with, or against (murder/rape etc) the flow, "logos", the river of life as it directs you towards the sea,, the great wide open,, even though their may be many undercurrents,,the trick is just to go with it, accept it and evolve towards happiness in this lifetime. As Bill again mentioned,, remember,," It's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one".
Bill Hicks