Swapping addictions

[OpiYum]

I stupidly swapped my heroin addiction for crack and then ended up in jail and rehab and everything. Now I am on suboxone, in rehab long term outpatient, on dextrostat, and have had no cravings for meth or crack or cocaine and don't abuse my dextrostat, except for occassionally sniffing it.

I understand SweetP's plan. At least she has a safer plan than what she is currently doing. So, I'm all for it. I also want to say that the OP may consider Suboxone, after the Methadone, if it's available in her country, and to get counseling as well, in hope of being totally sober in the future.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

That's a good point Cane2theLeft, although sometimes being clean really isn't an option you can take lightly when you have commitments and things to do. I am learning that with benzo withdrawal, which I'm going through now. I've been in touch with people who've lost their careers, their homes and cannot put food on the table for their kids because of benzo withdrawal. In cases where your children are depending on you, it can be a very tough decision, to incapacitate yourself with drug withdrawal for an extended period of time.

However, sometimes you just have to be selfish (well caring for yourself isn't really selfish) and just put all your commitments aside and do whatever it takes to get clean. I'm not sure what commitments you have Sweet P, but what would happen if you just said to hell with them and got clean? I realize it might upset a lot of people who expect things from you, but there's not much they could do about it. No one who truly cares about you would ask you to go back on drugs.

First off, when it comes to addiction NOTHING can be taken lightly. Its a serious fucking disease and whether its the intoxication, potential for OD withdrawal or the less physical and more psychological aspects, its always serious.

Next, I understand your point about withdrawal because I was on increasing doses of opioids and opiates for nearly 4 years to manage my chronic pain. I understand how debilitating physical dependency can be first hand and how disruption in supply can SERIOUSLY affect your life. I can't say I know what anyone else has been through first hand, but I can appreciate the severity.

What I found interesting especially about your post is that you attribute the problems with stopping to WITHDRAWAL. Clearly the problems you would face stopping OR continuing are not a product of some specific physiological phenomenon but a product of this disease of addiction. Last night I was just reading a report on treating substance abuse in the borderline population that found that one common manifestation is repeated inquiry into treating their symptoms with benzodiazepines (likely without the medical professional knowing about the BPD) and down the road when they are advised to cease their BZP use or find alternatives, they insist that the withdrawals would be too traumatic.

I certainly will not discount the severity of physical habituation, but I think if you truly believe that the withdrawals are going to have a worse impact on your life, a worse impact on YOU and YOUR LOVED ONES than your addiction eventually will, you are absolutely fooling yourself.

Using withdrawals as a reason to not get better is purely rationalization of a sick brain to continue use. Its an unwillingness to see immediate pain as SO BEYOND worth it in the long run for ALL parties involved.

I understand that all of this is a rational distinction and I can't feel the pain or understand the weight of your personal decisions, but I hope you also just understand that due to the nature of the beast, your brain will use any possible reason to justify use and not a single one of them will change the fact that you and everyone around you will be much better off in the long run if you can find a way to achieve and maintain sobriety.

 

[burn out]

First off, when it comes to addiction NOTHING can be taken lightly. Its a serious fucking disease and whether its the intoxication, potential for OD withdrawal or the less physical and more psychological aspects, its always serious.

Next, I understand your point about withdrawal because I was on increasing doses of opioids and opiates for nearly 4 years to manage my chronic pain. I understand how debilitating physical dependency can be first hand and how disruption in supply can SERIOUSLY affect your life. I can't say I know what anyone else has been through first hand, but I can appreciate the severity.

What I found interesting especially about your post is that you attribute the problems with stopping to WITHDRAWAL. Clearly the problems you would face stopping OR continuing are not a product of some specific physiological phenomenon but a product of this disease of addiction. Last night I was just reading a report on treating substance abuse in the borderline population that found that one common manifestation is repeated inquiry into treating their symptoms with benzodiazepines (likely without the medical professional knowing about the BPD) and down the road when they are advised to cease their BZP use or find alternatives, they insist that the withdrawals would be too traumatic.

I certainly will not discount the severity of physical habituation, but I think if you truly believe that the withdrawals are going to have a worse impact on your life, a worse impact on YOU and YOUR LOVED ONES than your addiction eventually will, you are absolutely fooling yourself.

Using withdrawals as a reason to not get better is purely rationalization of a sick brain to continue use. Its an unwillingness to see immediate pain as SO BEYOND worth it in the long run for ALL parties involved.

I understand that all of this is a rational distinction and I can't feel the pain or understand the weight of your personal decisions, but I hope you also just understand that due to the nature of the beast, your brain will use any possible reason to justify use and not a single one of them will change the fact that you and everyone around you will be much better off in the long run if you can find a way to achieve and maintain sobriety.

i agree with some of what you said. the only point i was making, was that in some instances, it might be worth delaying withdrawing due to life circumstances.

Clearly the problems you would face stopping OR continuing are not a product of some specific physiological phenomenon but a product of this disease of addiction.

i dont agree with this, benzo withdrawal is very much physiological. the cognitive impairment i experience is very much physiological in nature, i believe i dont know anything about meth withdrawal though, or how it compares.

sweet p, i dont know your situation and maybe it would help if you told us but i do think you should really consider Cane2theLeft's advice. whatever obligations you have (unless they are very temporary) are not worth delaying withdrawing for.

 

[Sweet P]

Sweet P I have a question for you:


Im not too fimilar with meth at all so excuse my ignorance. Ive done it a few times, but here in the Midwest "Detroit" Michigan they dont have much here, its more down south.


Ive always thought meth wasnt phisically addicting just mental. Can you elaborate on this topic??

Whats the W/Ds like? THANKS A TON

I'm physically dependent on meth in the sense that I'm totally exhausted and unmotivated without it. Getting out of bed in the morning seems like conquering Mount Everist. But your right, most of the withdrawals are psychological - although I don't think that makes them any less painful than physical withdrawals.

sweet p, i dont know your situation and maybe it would help if you told us but i do think you should really consider Cane2theLeft's advice. whatever obligations you have (unless they are very temporary) are not worth delaying withdrawing for.

I don't have a job, but I'm expected to help out around the house, go to appointments, and so on. Also, when I get sentenced in May for multiple drug-related charges, I'll probably be facing some kind of community service.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

i agree with some of what you said. the only point i was making, was that in some instances, it might be worth delaying withdrawing due to life circumstances.

I think in some rare circumstances delaying withdrawal could be justified but I think overwhelmingly this is rationalization to continue use.

i dont agree with this, benzo withdrawal is very much physiological. the cognitive impairment i experience is very much physiological in nature, i believe i dont know anything about meth withdrawal though, or how it compares.

sweet p, i dont know your situation and maybe it would help if you told us but i do think you should really consider Cane2theLeft's advice. whatever obligations you have (unless they are very temporary) are not worth delaying withdrawing for.

I apologize if I wasn't clear... benzo withdrawal has a significant physiological component, as do alcohol, barbiturates, opiates and other drugs... the point I was trying to make was that the problems and consequences caused by this physiological component pale in comparison to all the lifelong problems caused by addiction.

If you ask most people with significant periods of abstinence, PAWS was harder to deal with than the brief physical withdrawal and even then, the problems associated with PAWS are still preferable for most over all the havoc their addictions wreaked on their lives.

 

[burn out]

I'm physically dependent on meth in the sense that I'm totally exhausted and unmotivated without it. Getting out of bed in the morning seems like conquering Mount Everist. But your right, most of the withdrawals are psychological - although I don't think that makes them any less painful than physical withdrawals.

But it's temporary.

I don't have a job, but I'm expected to help out around the house, go to appointments, and so on. Also, when I get sentenced in May for multiple drug-related charges, I'll probably be facing some kind of community service.

That doesn't sound too bad. Some people have a full time job and a family to support and they still go through withdrawal. And if you full fill your obligations, then you can't do it. No one can make you. What do you think is going to happen? They're going to tell you to start taking meth again?

 

[Sweet P]

But it's temporary.

Acute meth withdrawals last from one to two weeks.

PAWS can last from a few months to a year or more. Fuck that.

 

[burn out]

So you're just going to remain addicted for a lifetime because you don't want to deal with what could only be "a few months" of PAWs? It's really not that much time, in the grand scheme of things and think how worth it will be when it's over.

It doesn't even sound that bad to me, compared to benzo withdrawal which can last for years ACUTELY and PAWS can last the rest of your life.

 

[Sweet P]

Yeah probably, but I'm spun right now so maybe my perspective is a little skewed.

And I've been dependent on benzos for 7 years - I know what benzo withdrawal is like.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

So you're just going to remain addicted for a lifetime because you don't want to deal with what could only be "a few months" of PAWs? It's really not that much time, in the grand scheme of things and think how worth it will be when it's over.

It doesn't even sound that bad to me, compared to benzo withdrawal which can last for years ACUTELY and PAWS can last the rest of your life.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

I would never try to tell you how to live or what's right for you Sweet P, I just hope you understand that you're rationalizing... its your train giving you illegitimate reasons so you continue to use.

I also hope you understand how much better off you can be when you do break free from the chains of addiction. You have so much potential and so much in this life to be hopeful for but the chemical restraints of meth and other substances prevent this.

No one with a brain will tell you getting off meth and other drugs will be easy, its just up to you to determine if its worth it. I encourage you to look at all the current and potential consequences of your use and put that next to all that you've lost and all that you have to gain.

 

[Sweet P]

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

I would never try to tell you how to live or what's right for you Sweet P, I just hope you understand that you're rationalizing... its your train giving you illegitimate reasons so you continue to use.

I also hope you understand how much better off you can be when you do break free from the chains of addiction. You have so much potential and so much in this life to be hopeful for but the chemical restraints of meth and other substances prevent this.

No one with a brain will tell you getting off meth and other drugs will be easy, its just up to you to determine if its worth it. I encourage you to look at all the current and potential consequences of your use and put that next to all that you've lost and all that you have to gain.

Yeah, I know I'm probably rationalizing and all that jazz, but right now I'm just not ready to quit meth cold turkey and endure the prolonged after-effects - regardless of whether they last for one month or one year. That's why I'm looking at alternative options.

 

[hyroller]

I've thought about this a couple of times, too....

Can you get an illegitimate script supply for dex or ritalin or anything along those lines?

The problem with switching to opiates is you're likely to hate them... lol.. those of us who prefer stims never take too kindly too downers and if you're tired enough without meth, you'll be sleeping 24/7 on the 'done....

 

[Sweet P]

Can you get an illegitimate script supply for dex or ritalin or anything along those lines?

What do you mean by illegitimate? I've tried asking both my GP and my psychiatrist from CADS (the City Alcohol & Drug Service) for a dexy script, but the answer has always been no. I've asked my drug counsellor to speak to another psychiatrist within the organisation, after explaining that dexies would be the lesser of two evils, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[footscrazy]

So you're just going to remain addicted for a lifetime because you don't want to deal with what could only be "a few months" of PAWs? It's really not that much time, in the grand scheme of things and think how worth it will be when it's over.

It doesn't even sound that bad to me, compared to benzo withdrawal which can last for years ACUTELY and PAWS can last the rest of your life.

I really think you and Cane2theLeft are simplifying the issue too much. While you may be correct, what you're basically trying to make sound so simple is the biggest problems that all addicts face. Addiction simple isn't a problem of rationalising 'a few months of PAWs' to a lifetime of misery.

Whether you use a physically addictive drug like benzos or opiates, or a psychologically addictive drug like meth, the most likely reason you became dependent on them in the first place is that life feels better on them than without them. This isn't going to magically change just because you get through the withdrawal symptoms and PAWs. Unless you've done a lot of soul searching, personal development etc, you're still the same person who became dependent on them in the beginning, but now with a history of addiction to boot.

Regardless of what addiction you are kicking, I believe it has to be a life change; it's not about the amount of time you go through withdrawals or how bad they are. How easy it is to change a major portion of your personality differs from person to person, but it is definitely a hell of a lot harder than getting through a few months of PAWs, or the physical hell of quitting opiates, so can we please stop trying to pretend this is all about withdrawl

 

[hyroller]

I've had some doctor friends who could have written me dodgy scripts if I wanted...

and I've got an ADHD friend who gives me ritalin if I can hook him up with what he wants... lol

the drug world contains many weird and wonderful hook-ups and contacts - I'm not sure how much networking you've done in the time you've been addicted to meth, but there are certainly possibilities if you think outside the square

 

[Sweet P]

Whether you use a physically addictive drug like benzos or opiates, or a psychologically addictive drug like meth, the most likely reason you became dependent on them in the first place is that life feels better on them than without them. This isn't going to magically change just because you get through the withdrawal symptoms and PAWs. Unless you've done a lot of soul searching, personal development etc, you're still the same person who became dependent on them in the beginning, but now with a history of addiction to boot.

This is a huge problem for me. The fact is, I actually don't have a lot of potential and opportunities in life. When I get clean, I'm still gonna be the same transsexual with no qualifications, no employment history, multiple criminal convictions, mental health issues, and so on. The only difference is that I'll also have a history of drug addiction. Not exactly a promising outlook is it?

I've had some doctor friends who could have written me dodgy scripts if I wanted...

and I've got an ADHD friend who gives me ritalin if I can hook him up with what he wants... lol

the drug world contains many weird and wonderful hook-ups and contacts - I'm not sure how much networking you've done in the time you've been addicted to meth, but there are certainly possibilities if you think outside the square

I don't know any dodgy doctors, and I'm connected well enough that I could buy dexies if I wanted, but for now I'd much rather go through the proper channels. If all else fails, yeah, I might have to consider getting the medication through other means.

 

[burn out]

I really think you and Cane2theLeft are simplifying the issue too much. While you may be correct, what you're basically trying to make sound so simple is the biggest problems that all addicts face. Addiction simple isn't a problem of rationalising 'a few months of PAWs' to a lifetime of misery.

Whether you use a physically addictive drug like benzos or opiates, or a psychologically addictive drug like meth, the most likely reason you became dependent on them in the first place is that life feels better on them than without them. This isn't going to magically change just because you get through the withdrawal symptoms and PAWs. Unless you've done a lot of soul searching, personal development etc, you're still the same person who became dependent on them in the beginning, but now with a history of addiction to boot.

Regardless of what addiction you are kicking, I believe it has to be a life change; it's not about the amount of time you go through withdrawals or how bad they are. How easy it is to change a major portion of your personality differs from person to person, but it is definitely a hell of a lot harder than getting through a few months of PAWs, or the physical hell of quitting opiates, so can we please stop trying to pretend this is all about withdrawl

that's true. i guess for me, things got so bad when i was addicted to drugs, that just the thought of escaping from that living hell and impending death and going back to feeling my old level of crappiness (which i now realize had a lot of good intertwined with it that i failed to appreciate because i focused on all the bad) sounds good to me.

i know that getting over a major drug addiction is much more complicated than just going through withdrawal though. one thing ive never understood is those addicts who go to 30 days in rehab or whatever and then come out all smiles preaching the benefits of sobiety. it's like, if being sober is so great, why did you start on drugs in the first place?

i'm not like that though. i now understand that life is hard, with drugs and without. but i believe that if you've descended far enough down into the hell of addiction and lost your physical and mental health, then the feeling of getting it back is good enough to make you not want to lose it again.

it is so much better to have control of your life. i think that's part of the appeal of drugs. they give you some control over how you feel. and isn't that what everyone wants? but once you become addicted, you have far less control than you did before and that's what everyone doesn't want. addiction really makes no sense, it's not to your benefit.

 

[burn out]

This is a huge problem for me. The fact is, I actually don't have a lot of potential and opportunities in life. When I get clean, I'm still gonna be the same transsexual with no qualifications, no employment history, multiple criminal convictions, mental health issues, and so on. The only difference is that I'll also have a history of drug addiction. Not exactly a promising outlook is it?

none of those things will necessarily prevent you from finding happiness and if you can find some sense of happiness, you will have something which many people whose lives are full of opportunities don't have.

 

[OverDone]

This is a huge problem for me. The fact is, I actually don't have a lot of potential and opportunities in life. When I get clean, I'm still gonna be the same transsexual with no qualifications, no employment history, multiple criminal convictions, mental health issues, and so on. The only difference is that I'll also have a history of drug addiction. Not exactly a promising outlook is it?

Sweet P, you know you already have qualifications. Most drug counselors are former addicts, the Clinical Assistants at the rehab I went to only needed to have 2 years clean to work there and most had criminal records and no formal education.

Sometimes shit just pops into my head and when I read this reply I immediately thought of the volunteers that work at the local needle exchange here in Philly. They do MUCH more than just swap needles. They actually have a STRONG focus on the GLBT community and yes, some are actually paid. Here's a link: http://www.preventionpointphilly.org/services/services-trans.html

It'd be really nice to see you get through this alive and with minimal harm until you are ready to get clean.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I really, really respect and value you. I just can't NOT say what I'm thinking.

 

[serendipitous9257]

Sweet P .. I have been following this thread all day, but have been unable to post until now. Okay, here goes (and please excuse me as the hubby and I have been drinking).

-I feel how you so desperately want to stop ... You are even willing to create a new addiction to overcome your meth addiction. As I see it, and I am no expert, becoming an opiate addict will only be, as others have said, a band aid for your meth addiction. If you choose this route, and undergo therapy for said opiate addiction, I would suggest mentioning in therapy while on subs, etc that u swapped in an effort to be free of meth.

- you are NOT some trannsexual with no job history, etc!! I don't know how things work in NZ, but if you are under 45, you can totally say that you were a homemaker (who cares if it's not technically true ... You do maintain YOUR home), and you are now wanting to re-enter the work force. No employment checks, etc. As it is, you need to take care of YOU and not worry about these details later. As of now, you are not aspiring to be a CEO or whatever, so don't worry about a job and experience. If you find something that you love, you WILL gain experience and maybe go for a certificate or degree.

-I suggested volunteering a little while ago .. Have you looked into this? I know that it seems like such an effort, but studies show that this DOES make a difference, and I personally have discovered that not only boredom but also other issues may increase our desire to use. I know that adderall abuse is miniscule to meth, but while I was out with friends, etc, thd withdrawl symptoms of lethargy, lack of motivation, etc, these symptoms were easier to deal with. For example, I volutneered at a place that need help with HR issues (fixing ones resume, what to say during an interview, etc), and it made me feel soooo much better. Maybe you can volunteer at a soup kitchen or be a speaker for transsexuals and share your experiences? If you are not ready for this, drag yourself out and lie in the park all day - something to get you out and about!!

-nevertheless, as others have stated .. You and ONLY YOU can explain why you use. Even if it seems silly, I'd buy a self help book on self esteem and go frm there. I think that who you are and what you have struggled with and suffered through have contributed to your use and abuse. And now, you are addicted ... Both mental and physical withdrawls here and so hard to overcome. Anyway, it doesn't matter what maintenance program you are on, or what other addictions you can accrue .. You need to look at yourself long and hard and answer some questions fr YOURSELF. Lord knows I am still trying to answer some of those questions!!

-no one cares if you are a transsexual with some charges (didn't know that went thru yet!) and no employment history. You start from here and now. Fuck the doc's who won't give u d-amp or whatever ... You are better off without and you will overcome this!! Take a long, hard, and HONEST look at yourself. You are a wonderful individual with an amazing heart who is struggling but will overcome this!!

On another note ... I know that you feel a long term rehab would feel like a prison, but it might be sooooo different from your previous experience in a psych ward. It's our nature to be afraid of change and the unknown. Ultimately, you need to choose which route us best for you.

I hope this made sense, and that the spelling isn't atrocious (in this case, laptop beats phone!). Am thinking if you and if there is anything I can do/offer, let me know.