• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Quitting College and going to Cosmetology school...

Personally, I'd like to see a few experiments conducted with behavioral modification programs at colleges and universities. If not doing the reading, not attending class, binge drinking, etc., really are widespread problems, then I think universities need to address it outside the classroom.

And I'm not talking about a class on "study skills" or "time management." I mean a return to a holistic approach to higher education, closer to the model of the older American liberal arts colleges than the German research university, but this time informed by psychology (I know you'll love this Satiricon) and not religion.
 
^I think plenty of people do go to university on a whim. I'm not saying this is true of everyone, but I've met plenty of people for whom higher education was simply the path of least resistance after secondary education. It should be payed for through loans, which can be repaid with the higher earnings that graduates enjoy. If taking out a loan to pay for your degree doesn't make economic sense for you, then it shouldn't fall on your peers to subsidise it. It means that your academic endeavours are better suited to being a pastime than a career.
I don't see why you think the opportunity should be provided to anyone who wants it; education is a good that must be paid for, just like anything else. You don't have a god-given right to a degree. I'm not disputing that education is beneficial to society as a whole, but I am arguing that this is not sufficient justification to coercively extract funds from citizens to cover the cost. Public funding and universal access does not lead to the higher academic standards that you and I would both like to see; as I said, just look at France.
I agree that there is more pressure on academics, but this is surely a symptom of the huge rise in the number of students. That is because subsidising a good causes an artificially low price, thus causing demand to outstrip supply. If everyone paid the actual cost of the service provided, there would be fewer students, and thus academics would be free to get on with what is actually important, i.e. academia.
I don't recall saying that " subsidising education with taxes is just society subsidising people to fuck around and do nothing". I just believe state funding to be an unfair and inefficiency-promoting system. If you can make the argument to people that subsidising education reduces inequality and raises welfare, by all means convince them of this and get the funds voluntarily.
 
^I think plenty of people do go to university on a whim. I'm not saying this is true of everyone, but I've met plenty of people for whom higher education was simply the path of least resistance after secondary education. It should be payed for through loans, which can be repaid with the higher earnings that graduates enjoy. If taking out a loan to pay for your degree doesn't make economic sense for you, then it shouldn't fall on your peers to subsidise it. It means that your academic endeavours are better suited to being a pastime than a career.

In Australia under the HECS system the state funds part of your degree, and then you pay it back on a sliding income scale after you are making enough money to afford it. This is a good system, but tuition fees only make up around half of the money that universities make (depending on the university). The rest comes from grants from the private sector, grants from the public sector, and state subsidies to make research which is not immediately economically viable possible (and thus have actual academia rather than an institution which just researches what the private sector wants it to research.)

I don't see why you think the opportunity should be provided to anyone who wants it; education is a good that must be paid for, just like anything else. You don't have a god-given right to a degree. I'm not disputing that education is beneficial to society as a whole, but I am arguing that this is not sufficient justification to coercively extract funds from citizens to cover the cost. Public funding and universal access does not lead to the higher academic standards that you and I would both like to see; as I said, just look at France.

Education is not just a good. Education is a social process with important stratifying effects for society as a whole. We have a political dispute here: what I call taxation in order to have some kind of society in which the inequalities that markets produce and institutionalise are tempered by the state, you call coercive extraction of funds from citizens.

Also: France has one of the most highly stratified and elitist educational systems in the West. The issue is not just where the money comes from, but also the structure of the education system. Germany is another example of a highly stratified education system which nevertheless gets comparatively well funded by the state, because of the way the system is structured.

Nevertheless, an education system which is well publicly funded is an absolute must if education is going to be anything other than an institution reinforcing middle and upper class privilege. The enormous class related difference between public and private sector education in the United States is a perfect example of this and a lesson on why market forces fuck things like education up completely.

I agree that there is more pressure on academics, but this is surely a symptom of the huge rise in the number of students. That is because subsidising a good causes an artificially low price, thus causing demand to outstrip supply. If everyone paid the actual cost of the service provided, there would be fewer students, and thus academics would be free to get on with what is actually important, i.e. academia.

The reason there are more students at university now is because the youth labour market completely collapsed in the 1980s across all of the "first world" countries. This was related to the large decline in low skilled manufacturing jobs available to working class people, and is reflected in the level of subsidies these kinds of industries now receive from the state in order to prevent large scale unemployment of people without degrees. The result of all this is that there are no decent jobs for young people today, so they go to university in the hope of being able to secure a decent job in the future, as well as (hopefully) to expand their minds and get some new perspectives on how their world works. This has resulted in 'educational inflation' where a degree now is worth less than it was. This is unavoidable, and a result of the interaction between the labour market and the value of education (as a good in the economic sense).

Making going to university more difficult by forcing people to pay for it up front won't solve any of these problems. It will just result in a less well educated population which is less able to adapt to changing economic conditions. It will also exacerbate the already very strong class effects that you can clearly see in educational achievement. Ultimately there is no upside to this.

I don't recall saying that " subsidising education with taxes is just society subsidising people to fuck around and do nothing". I just believe state funding to be an unfair and inefficiency-promoting system. If you can make the argument to people that subsidising education reduces inequality and raises welfare, by all means convince them of this and get the funds voluntarily.

The most efficient education system would be if we just sent all of our students into a room and handed them a degree without teaching them anything. But I doubt either of us wants to see that kind of "streamlining" or "rationalisation." There is nothing unfair about subsidising education. We live in a society with entrenched inequality and the rich should have to give up some of their money in order to give the poor opportunities which education (sometimes) brings. And quite frankly I don't give a fuck if they don't want to. Rich kids will do well at school regardless because they will have a stable background and go to a well resourced private school. So they can pay for some of the privilege that comes with being upper class in an unequal society by giving up some of their money to help those people whose poverty makes their wealth possible.

People often don't want to drive responsibly either but we force them to for the public good. People often don't want to pay taxes, but we force them to anyway because otherwise the state would not be able to exist. Education is not just a commodity, it is a vitally important social process which can make a huge difference in the overall welfare of society and if people don't want to contribute to it well fuck them, they'll have to just like they have to contribute their taxes to making roads, funding the courts, and providing unemployment benefits for those who occupy the most structurally disadvantaged positions in society.

Edit: Holy shit what a massive post. Oops!
 
Personally, I'd like to see a few experiments conducted with behavioral modification programs at colleges and universities. If not doing the reading, not attending class, binge drinking, etc., really are widespread problems, then I think universities need to address it outside the classroom.

And I'm not talking about a class on "study skills" or "time management." I mean a return to a holistic approach to higher education, closer to the model of the older American liberal arts colleges than the German research university, but this time informed by psychology (I know you'll love this Satiricon) and not religion.

Sounds good to me.
 
We have a political dispute here: what I call taxation in order to have some kind of society in which the inequalities that markets produce and institutionalise are tempered by the state, you call coercive extraction of funds from citizens.
This.
We live in a society with entrenched inequality and the rich should have to give up some of their money in order to give the poor opportunities which education (sometimes) brings. And quite frankly I don't give a fuck if they don't want to.
See I couldn't disagree more, but this reflects much wider underlying philosophical and political views on both our parts. I doubt we're going to reach an agreement on this issue. Still, I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
 
I am currently getting my degree in jounalism, mainly because I'm a good writer and it interests me, but I have no clue what I am going to do with the degree. Teach? I mean, it interests me, but before I started college I really wanted to go to cosmetology school. However, I didn't because everyone was saying how it was such a waste of my intelligence and how I wouldn't really be giving back to anyone. It's what I have wanted to do for a long time though. I'm good at it, it pays a lot, and I love doing it. I have been doing hair on myself forever, cutting and dying and before that I did it on my barbies. It's really what I want to do, so I feel like I am wasting my time in college.

I have just now read your thread but let me give you some advice.

These days people don't always know exactly what they want to do with their degrees, but every degree is useful in many unobvious ways. So don't judge it based solely on if you want to write articles.

Also, do you see cosmetology being a lifelong career? Keep in mind the money isn't that good. Are you looking for something to keep you busy until you find a husband who will be bringing in the majority of the money? If you answered yes to both questions then perhaps you should switch.

But if not, I would finish off my 4-year because you already finished most of it and you will benefit from it even if you end up doing something unrelated to journalism.
 
In Australia under the HECS system the state funds part of your degree, and then you pay it back on a sliding income scale after you are making enough money to afford it.

In Canada, the Country funds about 70% of the degree, and the other 30% is lent out by the Province, regardless of credit. Like you, we pay it back on a sliding scale based on income once we graduate. Both public and private bursaries are also given based on financial need and academic performance.

Of course you have the option of attending a private school, and you can pay for that yourself, and even take out loans from the government for. (which I disagree with, but whatever. We're nice like that)
 
See I couldn't disagree more, but this reflects much wider underlying philosophical and political views on both our parts. I doubt we're going to reach an agreement on this issue. Still, I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.

Couldn't you just change your opinion on this? That's normally what I do when I'm beaten in a debate.

This is why I'm not responding to JSG. I'm not getting into an "arts vs. sciences" debate, because last time I got my ass fed to me. This process (of eating my own ass) changed my opinion on the matter.

Isn't that how debate works?
 
I disagree with satiricon because I do not believe that coercion is an acceptable way to get you want regardless of the end you are striving for. I believe government to be an unjust construct, full stop. I don't think people should be robbed (which is what taxation amounts to) in order to pay for education.
If your government isn't doing that, they fail. Education is only a commodity in the US because your government has failed you. If I were you, I'd be upset.
What on earth gave you the impression that I'm American? It says "UK" plain as day in my location. I'm British (i.e "anywhere but the US"), and I think that education needs to be subjected to the free market. I'm sorry if you think that's "fucking retarded", but I have deeply rooted principles that have led me to this viewpoint. I don't believe in "restricting" education. I just don't believe in subsidising it, for the very reason that it causes the shortages that lead to the problems we were discussing. I don't dispute that it promotes class imbalances, I just disagree that coercion is any way to deal with the problem. What is wrong with the private sector providing loans to students which can be repaid later? It doesn't make sense for financial institutions to limit credit to the privileged, this system would be run on merit, with every applicant being individually assessed as an investment. How is this inequitable? Frankly, even ignoring the practical side of things, even if "free" (by which I take you to mean paid for by everyone else) education would reduce inequality, that doesn't justify forcing your peers to pay for it.
 
Well I see you edited the ad hominem attacks and sweeping assumptions away, but still hold that I've been beaten. Do you really think that in this thread the philosophical and political traditions of individualism, autonomy and free market liberalism have been totally defeated? No-one has done anything to show me that the ethical principles that support my views are wrong. I accepted that we have almost directly opposing political philosophies and that we aren't going to hammer out all of our differences in this thread about quitting college and going to cosmetology school.
 
I don't know how it works in the UK, but here the banks won't lend thousands of dollars to young people without a credit history. They certainly won't continue lending over a 4-year period unless you have something to back it up, like a co-signer with a house.

Do you see the problem? Not everyone has parents who are willing or able to co-sign for private student loans. This is why the government steps in and either works with the banks (bad idea) or runs the show (good idea) and lends directly from the coffers of the taxpayer without the banks touching it or getting involved.

As a private citizen, I've worked with banks and I've worked with the government. I can tell you without hesitation that my experience with the government has been by and large a much more positive experience. I would be working in a call centre right now tied to a headset if it wasn't for the government giving me the opportunity to reach my potential.
 
I understand the problem, but I have a fundamental problem with the whole system of taxation. I don't have any problem with a voluntary system in which people agree to collectively subsidise the education of their young people; I object to the coercive nature of the system.
As for the way banks currently work, at present it is true that young people with little credit history will find it difficult to get a loan. However, I see no reason why this couldn't change. Look at the way microfinance has worked-the free market will address inefficiencies where they exist. We all agree that education adds value to the economy; as this is the case, it should be perfectly possible for lenders to make a profit on student loans.
 
I'm not sure if you're arguing against government or collectivism. Surely you agree that certain things need to be mandated by tax dollars. Firefighters and police. Mail carriers and garbage men. Children's services and women's shelters. Hospice care and primary education. The list goes on. Post-secondary education is just an extension of things we all agree are necessary. It's all about raising the bar and making a better life for everyone with our collective resources.

As for education, the words "profit" and "student" shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
 
I would argue that nothing needs to be paid for by tax pounds. Firemen, postmen, dustmen, policemen and any other kind of men (or women) should be provided privately or charitably. I agree that all those things are necessary, and I would pay for them, and believe that everyone else should too. However, I am not willing to say that we should force anyone who does not agree to participate in our collective scheme. I'm simply not so confident in my moral superiority that I feel justified in forcing others to do what I would. Individual autonomy is a prerequisite for morality.
As for education, the words "profit" and "student" shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
It seems to me that you're treating education as some kind of special service that exists in an economic vacuum, and we know that this is not the case. Sad as it is, we have unlimited wants and limited resources. We have to find a way to distribute those resources efficiently, and profits are the incentives for that to happen. If your education isn't going to be profitable in the long run, then it doesn't make economic sense to spend tens of thousands of pounds on it. By all means pursue it, but as a hobby, off your own back. If the qualification isn't going to be of economic benefit, then you don't need it. What you're pursuing is knowledge for its own sake, and you don't need to be in formal education for that. I'd love a world in which we could all spend our days reading books and having long discussions, but it's just not the one we live in.
 
I'd love a world in which we could all spend our days reading books and having long discussions, but it's just not the one we live in.

It's the world I live in. North America and the Western world has an incredible amount of resources. More food than you or I could ever eat. More money can you could ever spend. More drugs than you could ever consume. Shelves and closets full of more cell phones and X-boxes and laptops than anyone could ever want. It's disgusting how much we have.

If you want efficiency, let's work on putting together a governing body that can distribute this glut of resources even better. What you're proposing is absurd. Not because people are necessarily mean-spirited and greedy, but generally just stuck up their own asses.
 
So you're talking about a centralised economy, where people decide that they know better than the market where resources need to be allocated? Those just don't work in practice, you would have to be near-omniscient in order to actually get people the things they need. And by "distribute the resources even better", do you mean steal resources from the people they belong to and give them to people we deem more deserving? That's just plain immoral in my eyes, regardless of any beneficial consequences it may have. We might have a lot of resources at the moment, but I bet that would change pretty quickly once you start removing incentives to production.
If people want to live their lives with their heads in their arses, its unfortunate but I don't see what gives anyone the right to force them to do otherwise. We can try to convince them of the error of their ways, but we shouldn't just rob them.
 
Not going to work in practice?

As opposed to police who are paid for by private interest groups, unchecked monopolies that become "too big to fail", corporate collusion that leads to price fixing, and a general widening of the socioeconomic gap?

Yeah, ok...

I think satiricon said it best:

There is nothing unfair about subsidising education. We live in a society with entrenched inequality and the rich should have to give up some of their money in order to give the poor opportunities which education (sometimes) brings. And quite frankly I don't give a fuck if they don't want to. Rich kids will do well at school regardless because they will have a stable background and go to a well resourced private school. So they can pay for some of the privilege that comes with being upper class in an unequal society by giving up some of their money to help those people whose poverty makes their wealth possible.
 
No, we're taking your pie because you have no ethical right to that pie. It's a perspective based on an acknowledgement that hard core individualism does not adequately describe how society works. People don't just deserve what they get as long as you make the market free enough, since the class background that people are born into will in large part determine the outcomes they can achieve.

So yes, we're taking your pie and you can deal with it and acknowledge that you live in a society.
 
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