• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

How toxic is Mephedrone?

OMG said:
Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful.

This is correct, with qualifications. The jury's still out on whether 5ht efflux + DARI would cause a large enough increase in dopamine to cause neurotoxicity. The jury is also still out on to what degree these various cathinone-derivatives act primarily as reuptake inhibitors or monoaminergic releasers, at which sites. Mephedrone also lacks the 3,4-methylenedioxy substitution that makes in-vivo metabolites more neurotoxic.

I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI. Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.

All this said, I'd be very surprised if it turns out that mephedrone bears NO neurotoxicity.

no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart).

This hinges on level of dosage, frequency of use, etc. Take MDMA, for example. It effects significant activity at 5ht2b, which is known to be cardiotoxic. Very few people take enough MDMA often enough to cause themselves MDMA-specific cardiac disease.

The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity.

Yes, but under what conditions of use? One must take ridiculous doses of d-amphetamine to cause this type of neurotoxicity.

If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.

NO kidding; people have died. :(

ebola
 
^Beta-blockers:

- non-selective: Propranolol, Sotalol, Carvedilol >> Structures

- beta1-selective: Atenolol, Metoprolol, Bisoprolol >> Structures

In general, beta-blockers are antagonists at the beta-subtype of the adrenergic receptors, causing lowering of the blood-pressure.

- Murphy
 
Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".

The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.

Of course the question is HOW toxic it is - but we appear to accept drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines (which act in a similar manner) as relatively safe given certain behavioural/dosage/etc limits. In short, harm reduction.

There are no histronic posts on how one should never, ever consider doing cocaine, but posts of a similar nature with mephedrone seem to be popping up more and more. All I'm suggesting is that we should consider it to have a similar safety profile to these stimulants, take appropriate precautions, and not freak the f out until more evidence is provided illustrating that mephedrone is in fact distinctly different from these classic drugs.
 
Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".

The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.


even caffeine is harmfull to the heart at stong doses so its pretty obvious that mephedrone is dangerous on a level with speed or ritalin, what bothers me is that in some way the alleged 5th2b heart issues are gonna be far worse than mdma ( in some opinions that have been educatedly presented) which is known to have an effect in this receptor that could be like fenfluramine). cocaine gives me a hell of a lot of tension in my chest and i get very tense uncomfortable heart area after even drinking coca tea for the day). the way i see it is that its (mephedrone) dangers are on a level with amphetamine use.

i consider speed to be dangerous and unhealthy and it blows my head off.

mephedrone is the same (it feels unhealthy and i confidently know it is dangerous) but my brain feels alright after use and my head isn't blown off.

therein is my distinction.=D
 
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even caffeine is harmfull to the heart at stong doses so its pretty obvious that mephedrone is dangerous on a level with speed or ritalin

Ive snorted copious lines of speed and ritalin and I have never had my extremities become ice cold. I think it's a little irresponsible to compare mephedrone to those two.
 
How much academic research on mephedrone has been published?
How much on amphetamine, cocaine, or methylphenidate?
Therein lies the distinction.

ebola
 
I have recently talked online again with a guy I know who is doing Meph regularily and quite heavily.
He was really testing every different Meph batch he could get his hands on from different vendors, trying to find out about the differences in them and so on. He was really making some kind of small scientific program out of it, ranking the different versions with numbers and so on.
He also said, that he think's he might have ADHD and the Mephedrone seems to actually have a therapeutic use for him.
So when I asked him how much he was doing, he said it would be 1.5-2.5g per day since about 3 month now 8o

Be aware, I can of course not guarantee that this is 100% true, but I do belive it and he has no reason to lie to me about it.

He also said, that he did get some tolerance in the beginning but then not anymore and it is still working fine on him and he is still getting the positive effects.

What he noticed is that he is not in such a good shape anymore and when he has to go stairs up and down he is short of breath faster than usual, but otherwise he did not notice any serious negative effects. He said, he can now ever sleep better than before and when he wakes up in the morning he feels fresh and good, even better than before?!?
He said he was working out a lot in the last 7 month and has a good body and is quite fit and so he is not really concerned about his use.
He said he knows that he can not keep this up long term and plans to make a loger break soon.

Anyway, the reason I'm writing this is, because this guy has consumed MUCH more than anyone else I have ever heard of so far.

I find this quite amazing, and would love to hear "vecktor"s opinion on it, especially in regard to the calculated LD50 of 3.3g and the betahydroxy metabolite accumulating.
Is it really possible that some people can just handle such stuff much better and don't get any problems???

Please be aware: I'm not trying to say that Mephedrone is a harmless substance by posting this! Not at all! I just try to report a real life case that I find quite amazing, nothing more.

I have used Mephedrone in the last couple of month very moderate (max. 500mg per week) and with the recent reports about the vasconstriction problems coming up, have decided to stop at least for 3 weeks now and after that plan to do it only 2 times per month in moderate doses.

Again, this is a mostly unresearched chemical and only because it seems to not cause any problem even in extremely high amounts for the person I wrote about, does not mean it can not cause big problems even in very small amounts for other people!
 
Ive snorted copious lines of speed and ritalin and I have never had my extremities become ice cold. I think it's a little irresponsible to compare mephedrone to those two.

in which direction do you see them belonging? this response seems ambiguous to me?:)

^doing this drug in large amounts daily is very ridiculous, the breathlessness thing seems quite concerning considering if he is working out he mustbe overstraining his body a fair bit
 
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I have recently talked online again with a guy I know who is doing Meph regularily and quite heavily.
He was really testing every different Meph batch he could get his hands on from different vendors, trying to find out about the differences in them and so on. He was really making some kind of small scientific program out of it, ranking the different versions with numbers and so on.
He also said, that he think's he might have ADHD and the Mephedrone seems to actually have a therapeutic use for him.
So when I asked him how much he was doing, he said it would be 1.5-2.5g per day since about 3 month now 8o

Be aware, I can of course not guarantee that this is 100% true, but I do belive it and he has no reason to lie to me about it.

Does he note any change to mental health? Apart from exercising, internet and drugs, what does he do in the day.. has he noticed any change in ability to do tasks etc? I presume if he thought he had ADHD he finds the mephedrone helps him focus more on tasks... would be interested to hear more about this guy if he is not just telling loads of lies to make himself sound macho or something 8o
 
would be interested to hear more about this guy if he is not just telling loads of lies to make himself sound macho or something 8o

I'll try to get more information and will then post it.
What I can confirm is, that he has definitely bought enough mephedrone regularily, so that the given numbers are realitstically and unless he has given it all away or threw it out of the window, the numbers seem quite possible to me.
Also he did not brag in any way, quite the opposit.
I only knew that he was taking quite a lot of Mephedrone and that he did so many times a week.
We talked about different batches of Mephedrone and the difference in effects and stuff like that, on a regular basis.
That's why I asked him two days ago, how much it was he was actually consuming and then he came up with these numbers.
So based on all I know, I really do believe that the numbers are correct.
 
Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful.

The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".

That is relevant to mdma. It is not relevant to mephedrone if it works as expected on top of an ssri. You haven't said whether you've ever taken it.

If so did it 'feel' neurotoxic?
 
This is correct, with qualifications. The jury's still out on whether 5ht efflux + DARI would cause a large enough increase in dopamine to cause neurotoxicity. The jury is also still out on to what degree these various cathinone-derivatives act primarily as reuptake inhibitors or monoaminergic releasers, at which sites. Mephedrone also lacks the 3,4-methylenedioxy substitution that makes in-vivo metabolites more neurotoxic.

I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI. Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.

All this said, I'd be very surprised if it turns out that mephedrone bears NO neurotoxicity.



This hinges on level of dosage, frequency of use, etc. Take MDMA, for example. It effects significant activity at 5ht2b, which is known to be cardiotoxic. Very few people take enough MDMA often enough to cause themselves MDMA-specific cardiac disease.



Yes, but under what conditions of use? One must take ridiculous doses of d-amphetamine to cause this type of neurotoxicity.



NO kidding; people have died. :(

ebola

Bump.

It has been pointed out here that the 4-methyl group distinguishes itself from other cathinones by lacking significant serotonin efflux as a primary/secondary mode of action (though it is also a substrate inhobitor at SERT*)

This leaves bog standard dopaminergic neurotoxicity as seen with the amphetamines as the only other significant risk factor, bar the peripheral cardiovascular side effects.


*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14629733
 
I think we should all just start ignoring kfluxsake for the sake of this thread and not allowing it to be filled with misinformation (with the exception of that one journal citation).
 
I think we should all just start ignoring kfluxsake for the sake of this thread and not allowing it to be filled with misinformation (with the exception of that one journal citation).

especially as he hasn't read the single journal article which he references, which incidently doesn't support a damn thing he says.
FWIW a quick scan read of the article... it does not mention 4-methyl substituted cathinones or their serotinergic activity or lack of instead it refers to vanilla cathinone and 4-MTA.
the evidence supports the following hypothesis: kfluxsake talks out of his arse. I have yet to see anything that indicates otherwise.

the article does contain the following references concerning the vascular and visceral pathology of vanilla methcathinone use. this might make interesting reading.

Mamrova, G. P., B. V. Sherstiuk, D. V. Bogomolov, M. Ozdamirova
Iu & A. Nikolkina Iu: [Epidemiologic analysis of ephedrone substance
abuse in the Primorye territory]. Sud. Med. Ekspert. 2001,
44, 30–32.

Pigolkin Iu, I. & B. V. Sherstiuk: [The histopathology of ephedrone
drug abuse]. Sud. Med. Ekspert. 1996, 39, 26–28.

McCann, U. D., D. F. Wong, F. Yokoi, V. Villemagne, R. F. Dannals
& G. A. Ricaurte: :( Reduced striatal dopamine transporter
density in abstinent methamphetamine and methcathinone users:
evidence from positron emission tomography studies with
[11C]WIN-35,428. J. Neurosci. 1998, 18, 8417–8422.
 
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Whoops

How toxic is mephedrone? I dont have a clue. But I might be able to help some people here have a bash from my personal experience.

Embarrassing and Stupid Part: I did 10g of meph in a period of a week. I had been sold it and introduced to it by a guy who said "yer m8, itz fukin bwilliant shit, u can dwo it awl week and nuffin bad will happen, no cumdawn or nefing" (it was actually worse english than that, but you get the message; fuckwit). Anyway, to cut to the point, it ended in disaster and the symptoms I experienced may help some people come up with some hypothesis about the potential toxicity of meph.


The first six days seemed largely ok in terms of major side effects. The normal stimulant enduced racing heart I was particularly aware of with meph though, much more than any other. Average resting pulse was 130 at the beginning of the binge, by the end of the week it rarely went above 100BPM no matter how much I did. On day seven consumed 1.5 grams. And this is where the problems started.

I first noticed noticed that my head was hurting, and I had a sharp pain at the back of my neck where my skull joined to my spine (cervicogenic headache) whenever I moved around. I then realised how bad my headache really was, it felt like my brain was too big for my skull and there was pressure spreading all around my head, with a particularly bad pressure behind my eyes and ears when I moved around. I stood up to look at myself in the mirror and then noticed the colour of my hands. The tips of my fingers had turned slightly purple, and my hands looked very red as if covered in a huge red rash. Then I started to feel extremely light-headed, as if I was going to black out, so I lay down and stuck my feet in the air to get circulation to my head.

It was then that I noticed the colour of my knees. My knees had gone dark purple, as if covered by a massive bruise, and my feet were very pale and white. Which make me think it wasn't normal vasoconstricion, as my lips were fine aswell as my feet. Then I noticed my elbows had also turned red like my hands and had a slightly purple tip to them like my knees. I suddenly felt very hot and decided to walk out onto the street with my mates to cool off and wait for the ambulance they'd just phoned out of concern.

Then I pretty much blacked out, I felt extremely light-headed and had to sit on the ground and was covered from head to toe in sweat. There was also (paradoxically for lightheadedness) a strong feeling of pressure in my head which felt immense, it felt as if my brain was trying to squeeze its way out of my eye sockets. My hands were now turning from red to blue/purple like my knees were.

When in hospital and laying down on the emergency bed my knees kept getting darker and darker purple and it was spreading round to the back of my knees too, and an odd pimply red rash was developing on my elbows. Also noticed cold sores in my mouth and loss of sensitivity to my legs and arms when they were not moving. Whenever I got up it felt like I would pass out and I had to keep drinking lots of water. The hospital was extremely busy, and It took THREE hours for a doctor to see me. When she did come she seemed completely uninterested in my extremely bizarre symptoms and just gave me a “you're a very naughty boy” look and wrote down on the paper “amphetamine abuse”, without even asking what type of amphetamine I had taken or what the real problems I were experiencing were. They rigged me up to a heart monitor, monitored my oxygen levels and put a blood pressure monitor on for the night. My heart rate stayed at ~100 for eight hours, and the blood pressure and oxygen levels were apparently normal. The colour to my hands elbows and knees was quite better by the morning but still very odd. They discharged me eight hours after I had arrived.



So this was six months ago. The color has slowly gotten better ever since, but the knees especially are still oddly colored on occasions, especially whenever I use any stims. Oddly some days they are completely fine, some days they are really terrible again.

So, any people here with any knowledge have any theories about what may have caused all this and thus make any useful deducions about mephs toxicity? I think that theres an odd mix of cardiovascular and auto-immune symptoms to show for me. The auto-immune being temporary and only on the night really, and the cardio aspect seems more permanent.

Someone on another forum made the following suggestion, which I dont know if it hold any merit or not, but the images of the condition did quite closely match the symptoms on the night:

"The skin symptoms are similar to some of the symptoms of dermatomyositis, which is an autoimmune disease of the skin and muscles. The actual mechanism is a focal vasculitis seen at the joints (knee, elbow, knuckles) which is mediated by the compliment pathway of the immune system clogging up capillaries. High doses of mephedrone probably trigger some sort of compliment or other immune system activation, creating a temporary vasculitis. A vasculitis would be more consistent than vasoconstriction given the symptoms since it is thin areas of skin rather than distal extremities which show changes."

Which produced the following picture which was the closest I could really get to it (the one on the left, and mine was darker and more widespread with less defined edges):


Dermatomyositis.jpg




And heres a pic of my legs six months later on an average day, still showing the symptoms, but it really varies dramatically from day to day. Some days people stare at me as if I've inherited legs from a smurf, some days they are 100% okay and back to normal. I haven't worked out yet what gives me a normal color day or a bright purple/blue day.


10cmfic.jpg

2mnltnm.jpg




So thats that. Didn't use it for six months after that, but tried a small amount the other day which brought the purpling symptoms back bad again. I may just be an exception or a one off unlucky case, in which case I dont want to scare people shitless about a chemical that a lot of people derive so much pleasure from (me included at the time) but I feel its better to share whatever info I have then ignore it ever happened.

I look forward to reading anyones replies and thoughts about anything this may tell us about meph. Thanks.
 
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I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI. Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.


Another purely anecdotal point I can add here is that after my aforementioned madness I have been on an SSRI (citalopram) for three months now. And when I tried a small amount of meph a few days ago I got no really worthwhile effects from the meph at all, I merely felt slightly stimulated but nothing like meph usually feels like in the slightest. Its effects definately felt blocked to me. I still got all the side effects, ie Racing heart (120BPM) and the discolored joints came back. However, what I also found interesting is that despite its lack of positive effects I still had an extremely large temptation to redose; just as much as when I used meph when not on the SSRI. So the fiending reputation it has is obviously not down to its serotonin activity (which [like MDMA] I found tollerance builds up to rapidly) but due to other factors, most likely its dopamine activity. (pharmacology noob here, so take this with a pinch of salt please!)

Are there many accounts of people getting full effects on SSRI's with Meph? Because I found the COMPLETE opposite personally. Would be curious to see these accounts If you know where I may find them.
 
I've only taken mephedrone once and I think it caused "damage" to me on some level. Got heart pains and chest weirdness, fast/slow pulse which got stronger and weaker randomly for weeks. Felt quite tired for the first few days afterwards too, and dizzy too... then the heart stuff began. It just felt like my heart was closer to the surface of my chest, it's a really hard thing to describe, especially as it got worse at different times of day and stuff. It was a scary feeling, and made me anxious, although I don't think it was rooted in anxiety, although a few people in EADD were pretty condescending and said so...

I have never had a drug experience which sketched me out as much. I had a wicked time doing meph, did maybe 400mg and it was indeed fun, but it worried me a fair amount afterwards. The chest stuff didn't feel normal or good at all, and it inspired me to quit smoking and to start drinking less.... over 4 months later I feel a lot better. Even still, a single use of mephedrone (combined with lots of booze) really didn't agree with me, and I still have these red spots on my chest which I think are due to the experience. I can't be sure though.

People are being fucking stupid with mephedrone, and whilst fun it's clearly not the best thing to be abusing.
 
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