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Alcoholics Anonymous, a religon?

MynameisnotDeja said:
I think for one to want to be involved with AA, they should at LEAST have a belief in a "higher power", even if they don't choose to cause it God. If you believe in NO higher power at all, the program would make little sense to you, IMO.

I believe in God, but still felt that AA wasn't right for me. I just don't like the perspective it offers. The whole "I am helpless" perspective. While I think it's good to humble yourself enough to admit you have a problem, I feel addicts need EMPOWERMENT, not the opposite. I considered AA when getting off alcohol but it just gave me a bad feeling.

For one, I don't like the idea that addicts need to quit ALL drugs if they don't want to. I just don't see things in such a black and white way. Why should I give up responsible marijuana use, something I enjoy, because alcohol doesn't work with me? It just doesn't make sense.
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To help ones who want to quit addictions, they give them a good support and a good start! You can go your own way I am sure, once you stand on your own two feet. But you can just keep something that you like, it is all a choice. But one who has lost control over usage and they need to recover, take what you want and leave some behind!
Once one gets onto their own feet, the idea is to guide yourself into your inner realm and find your own power, so you don't create another obsession with organized religion, unless it is your choice to do so. Once you become independant, you choose what to do!
 
i just got back from my first NA meeting in about a year or so, just to give it a shot again. i found that what i am missing in my recovery the most is support. i am not religious, but was willing to give the "higher power" a shot as long as i referred to the higher power as my soul. but then the whole "helpless" and powerless over my addiction is just bullshit, how can i be powerless and helpless over my addiction in order to beat it (hadning it over to a supernatural force that may or may not exist)...

i will not be going back i think. maybe i should just do the steps with a sponsor, but not attend the meetings...
 
To help ones who want to quit addictions, they give them a good support and a good start!
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Yeah, I love the community and support aspect of AA. I just disliked the feeling that I would have to hide my pot use.

I'm sure it helps lots of people and I'm not at all putting it down. I just found that for me, after years of alcoholism and problems and just fucking up sooo many times, I simply couldn't do it anymore. Remembering what happened because of my last relapse alone would probably stop me from ever drinking again. :\
 
unsui said:
i just got back from my first NA meeting in about a year or so, just to give it a shot again. i found that what i am missing in my recovery the most is support. i am not religious, but was willing to give the "higher power" a shot as long as i referred to the higher power as my soul. but then the whole "helpless" and powerless over my addiction is just bullshit, how can i be powerless and helpless over my addiction in order to beat it (hadning it over to a supernatural force that may or may not exist)...

i will not be going back i think. maybe i should just do the steps with a sponsor, but not attend the meetings...
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What I believe they mean by being powerless over your addiction, is that when addicted, you lose your control over it, the addiction runs you. On that they are correct, and unless you accept that, you can't go forward! What you don't feel and accept, it runs you. When denial is there, you can't take workable steps to sort anything.
Most of the tools they use, are workable, though you may not understand the underlying structures.
By a superior power, they mean, something that is beyond you. The logic is, if you do not have the power over your addiction, let go of the control and hand it over to something beyond you. Regardless whether that belief is, the superior power of the universe, of nature/ science, it is the start until you come to the point of being able to turn it all inwards and find your own inner resources to be able to heal. OK, so they use a structural perspective of Christianity. But what they are doing is good, just take the first steps with that, and then move onto your own path! ....Unless you have something better! The support is necessary!
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
Yeah, I love the community and support aspect of AA. I just disliked the feeling that I would have to hide my pot use.

I'm sure it helps lots of people and I'm not at all putting it down. I just found that for me, after years of alcoholism and problems and just fucking up sooo many times, I simply couldn't do it anymore. Remembering what happened because of my last relapse alone would probably stop me from ever drinking again. :\
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And you are one of the lucky ones that you have wisdom to follow what you realized is not working for you and the ability to follow that through! Not many can do that, and if it is for the support and the community feeling and structure they provide, that is great! Take what you find beneficial and leave the rest to them to keep! This is where I believe of being an individual in a group and not succumbint to the mind of the masses! Not for the things you don't believe in and you are more helpful to yourself and to others to have that individualism retained, while also needing to be in a group and communal/structural situation.
I understand that one needs to be honest in order to heal, but you do most of it, and keep some minor things to yourself, as you know what you need and what you don't!
 
Alcoholics Anonymous is NOT based off science, it is based if Christianity/Pagan beliefs. It is one of the most weak minded programs for drug and alcohol abuse I HAve ever stepped into. It is an outdated approach( formed in the 30's. and the original literature is still use todau) and is anti-intellectual bias. I will keep screaming and going to AA meetings and challening them, getting almost always the same answer, Have you gotten a home group? a sponsor? well then, maybe you just need more meetings. Meetings, mother fucker i need ECT
 
PureLife said:
Alcoholics Anonymous is NOT based off science, it is based if Christianity/Pagan beliefs. It is one of the most weak minded programs for drug and alcohol abuse I HAve ever stepped into. It is an outdated approach( formed in the 30's. and the original literature is still use todau) and is anti-intellectual bias. I will keep screaming and going to AA meetings and challening them, getting almost always the same answer, Have you gotten a home group? a sponsor? well then, maybe you just need more meetings. Meetings, mother fucker i need ECT
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Studies have shown AA to be no more effective than no treatment at all. Don't tell that to all the AA supporters here though, because if it works for them, then that must mean it is worth trying 8).
 
Studies have also shown that other methods of treatment have the same level of effectiveness as doing 12-step facilitation therapy. Studies have also shown that 12-step facilitation therapy is more effective than other methods in people who don't have preexisting mental conditions.

People's stories show that people have sucked dick to get their next fix of heroin or crack. People also can use heroin for years without running into any kind of trouble.

A quick search on the internet shows that other health professionals use evidence-based treatment that have no mention of the word "God."

And some people, when they promise enough people that they're going to stay clean, stay clean.
 
Samael said:
Studies have also shown that other methods of treatment have the same level of effectiveness as doing 12-step facilitation therapy. Studies have also shown that 12-step facilitation therapy is more effective than other methods in people who don't have preexisting mental conditions.

People's stories show that people have sucked dick to get their next fix of heroin or crack. People also can use heroin for years without running into any kind of trouble.

A quick search on the internet shows that other health professionals use evidence-based treatment that have no mention of the word "God."

And some people, when they promise enough people that they're going to stay clean, stay clean.
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Could you please provide links to the studies? Here are the studies I am referring to:

(Peele, Stanton. The Sciences, 1998, vol. 38, no. 2, Mar-Apr, pp. 17-21.)

"Correlates of Past-Year Status Among Treated and Untreated Persons with Former Alcohol Dependence: United States, 1992," by Deborah A. Dawson. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, Vol. 20, No. 4, June 1996, p. 773

The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, by George Vaillant. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1983, p. 285.



Anyways, I see it like this. If you get around a bunch of people regularly and talk about the one thing you should be avoiding like the plague, then that is going to lead to problems. Also, the fact that 12 step programs don't use any good scientifically verified methods (god ain't gonna help ya folks) and I think you can see why 12 step programs are so horrible. One of the authors of those studies actually supported 12 steps and that is the reason he began his study, but he could not deny the fact that the numbers ended up against him.
 
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/NewsEvents/NewsReleases/match.htm

Here. It's just one. I was exaggerating. Sorry for being unintentionally misleading.


And yes, dwelling on your problem is a problem. And there are a lot of people who make the program off-putting, and there are a lot of things that they tell you about having "spiritual faith" that are disturbingly Christan in nature. I'm not denying any of that. And the traditional method of explaining and "selling" AA/NA/Whatever-A as a product is horribly and disgustingly outmoded - even cringe-worthy at points. It still bothers me sometimes that I associate myself with some of these these people.

But there's an idea there that seems to work for some of the "Anonymous", regardless of whether they think it's their newfound "spiritual convictions" or not. It's the idea that maybe there's a better way to live than what led them to the point of being coerced into 12-step meetings. That maybe it's possible to stop funneling alcohol down your throat or that staying away from drug dealers and ghettos is better in the long run. That they look around, and even though they may be zoned out and detest the very existence of the organization that they're attending, that some of them are doing a hell of a lot better than they are AFTER doing a lot worse than they were. It's an idea that there can be a life after destroying it, even if(and this probably applies to most people), that total abstinence based on religious musings isn't gonna fucking work for them.

At least that's what I've garnered.
 
LivingInTheMoment said:
They give enormous support and asign a buddy to you too, to keep certain you are ok.
Surely they assist with the withdrawals!! What would the alcoholics have done without their assistance!
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Well, a 'buddy' isn't going to help someone in deleriums tremens or seizure states, I'll say that much. Complete abstinence from drugs like alcohol (and benzo's and barbs and any GABAergic really) is incredibly dangerous for an addicted person. Tapering/reduction is the only safe way to do it, and AA don't promote that.
 
swilow said:
Well, a 'buddy' isn't going to help someone in deleriums tremens or seizure states, I'll say that much. Complete abstinence from drugs like alcohol (and benzo's and barbs and any GABAergic really) is incredibly dangerous for an addicted person. Tapering/reduction is the only safe way to do it, and AA don't promote that.
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well, you can take what works and leave the rest behind! A buddy is assigned to make sure you are ok, and that you don't fall back! I don't know the full ins and outs of AA, I do know that certain parts work and others perhaps not.
 
Abstinence, in this case, kills. AA, and most christian based addicition treatments are designed to only further the 'power of god' over the world. As if addiciton is "unholy" or somesuch. Well, if god created us, he also created addictive drugs- cheers, god ;)
 
swilow said:
Abstinence, in this case, kills. AA, and most christian based addicition treatments are designed to only further the 'power of god' over the world. As if addiciton is "unholy" or somesuch. Well, if god created us, he also created addictive drugs- cheers, god ;)
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I would imagine one goes to AA because their addiction troubles them, not that it is unholly!
 
Can i choose my car as my higher power? It's got way more horsepower than i have and by any sensible definition of the word is more powerful (power = work done / time taken) than me.

If not then it's a religion.
 
LivingInTheMoment said:
I would imagine one goes to AA because their addiction troubles them, not that it is unholly!
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I think it is a bit of both. The addiction troubles them because they believe it is a sin or the work of the devil, but it also impedes on their daily functionality. I think you are both right.
 
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