Bupe Answer for how long Suboxone blocks opiates>>>

[johanneschimpo]

You can use full agonists (heroin) on top of low doses of bupe, like 1-2mg. Thats why. Simply put, 1-2mg isn't enough to fully block other opiates.

 

[ilovechronic]

That is what I figured. thanks, good to know. But will it slightly weaken the effects?

 

[thugpassion]

But will it slightly weaken the effects(of 1-2mg)?

Buprenorphine is good at blocking even at small doses. But with only 1 mg or so It dosent feel like it covers all your opiate receptors, or just dosent hold you over like a high dose of bupe would do. It does still block, It dosent cover up every single receptor(or weakley) and you can get high much sooner.

 

[sixpartseven]

That is what I figured. thanks, good to know. But will it slightly weaken the effects?

It will weaken the effects, requiring a bit more heroin to feel the full effects. Also, the duration of the heroin may be a tad bit shorter than normal, but overall, 1 - 2mg isn't a serious obstacle to navigate past with heroin. In fact, I do it quite often. A bag or two extra is all it takes to compensate.

 

[Tchort]

Your problem Telex is that you continue to use words like 'facts' 'the truth' 'the whole story' etc and you post factually incorrect information, and then get mad when anyone corrects you.

For every 8MG tablet that you take, you will need AT LEAST 24 hours before anything else will even work and even then it's only going to be halfway felt.

. . .

Telex's rule of thumb for bupe: Wait AT LEAST 36 hours for each 8mg pill you take. Even if you take 2 of them at the same time, it's still going to be AT LEAST 72 hours before you'll feel anything.

. . .

People can take this advice or leave it. I really don't care. I'm simply telling you that my first hand experience has been that you need AT LEAST 24-36 hours for every 8MG of Bupe taken if you want to be SURE that you'll feel other opiates.

You say you took 20mg Buprenorphine at 2pm on Monday, and tried to use Oxycodone on Thursday at 11:50am, then tried again on Friday at 11:00am.

So you disregarded your own 'facts' about how long you have to wait with taking other opioids after taking Bupe, even though it is 'the truth'? Then act surprised and 'pissed' when taking low doses of Oxycodone at the end of your 'guide' doesn't work? That means you're wrong.

-The naltroxone in the Sub's IS NOT what blocks other drugs!!!! It is the bupe itself bound soo tightly to the receptors that nothing else introduced into the system can knock them off.

As was pointed out, Naloxone, not Naltrexone, is what is in Suboxone tablets. Bupe has a higher affinity for certain opiate receptors than Naloxone and other agonists and antagonists; but, enough of any opioid agonist or antagonist will overpower the Bupe. A higher than usual dosage of Naloxone would be needed to bring someone out of a Bupe OD (as well a constant infusion as another poster pointed out), and if someone dependant on Bupe went under ultrarapid detox, higher doses of Naltrexone would be needed to remove the Bupe from the receptors. It is not true at all that 'nothing' can remove or supercede Bupe.

-Bupe is SOO STRONG that a shot of pure naltroxone if you were OD'ing on Suboxone would not even work very much because even THAT can't knock all the buperenorphine off your brain!

See above. Again, Narcan (Naloxone) is given for OD, not Naltrexone.

I am a recovering H addict who still bounces back and forth between OC's and Suboxone, but I'm slowly doing better. I have a TON of experience with opiates so I know what I'm talking about.

A symptom of what is wrong with the current Buprenorphine treatment system.

Telex's rule of thumb for bupe: Wait AT LEAST 36 hours for each 8mg pill you take. Even if you take 2 of them at the same time, it's still going to be AT LEAST 72 hours before you'll feel anything.

Completely depends on the dose of Bupe, how often it is taken, what other opioids are being taken or were being taken/level of tolerance, which opioid and how much is going to be taken, the body chemistry and mass of the person as well as their metabolism, etc. There can be nothing close to a catch all guide to how long one has to wait between using Bupe and another opioid. Too many variables.

Because "opinion" isn't involved whatsoever when you post about a 1st hand experience.

Not to mention that every factual Suboxone reference online backs me up. Wikipedia says that it has a half life of 36-72 hours.

How can that be "opinion"??

Not to mention the tone of assholes like JC who speak as if I'm lying or don't know what I'm talking about pisses me off.

I've done every opiate in the book, shot heroin for 5 years, been on Methadone, Bupe etc maintanence several times and have done Bupe enough to know when I can still feel it. It gives me a very distinct feeling of numbness in my head and up until as late as yesterday afternoon (over 72 hours after taking it), I could still feel it pretty strong.

This isn't to say that SOME people react differently. I even said that there have been times that I took 8mg of Suboxone one morning and was able to feel IV'd heroin 24 hours later. But even then, the H was not felt 100%. More like 50-60%.

The only explanation I can think of for it taking soo long this time was that I took more than double my normal bupe dose at one time. I could still feel the bupe very active even 72 hours after the dose.

None of this is based on "opinion". Everything I said about MY experience was fact.

Your personal experience is opinion, it is your opinion derived from what you believe happened to you.

Half-life does not translate into different physiological effects of a drug.

Example:

Naltrexone has a half-life of 3 or 4 hours; but a single dose will block the effects of opioid agonists for approx 3 days (same case with Bupe, it blocks 'normal' recreational doses, ultrahigh doses can breakthrough, same as with Bupe).

If half-life were the only indicator of how long the effects of a drug will last, then Naltrexone should only block other opioids for a few hours. That is not the only indicator, especially when you consider dose, length of time the dose has been regularly taken, body chemistry, etc.

TELL ME WHAT "EXACTLY" IS WRONG IN MY OP??

EVEN IF I GOT A FEW STUPID THINGS WRONG, THE MAIN POINT OF MY POST IS CORRECT.

There you go.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ You're a patient one to go through all that crap and respond point by point. I always enjoy a lively debate, but when its just some kids manifesto with "facts" that are sooo blatantly wrong and the person is ignoring all reason, I just can't be bothered. So bravo to you for having the patience and good job picking all that apart. I don't think he's trying to lie, I just think he has no idea what he's talking about and doesn't realize there are people on BL with college educations, who are pharmacists, work in research, etc. Maybe he's the smartest kid in his playground, but here he's going cope with the fact that there's a lot of people with more knowledge than him, and those people will correct him when he's wrong. Its not for "ego" or whatever he may think, its to make sure that Bluelight remains a source of (correct) information that people can trust.

Not to mention the tone of assholes like JC who speak as if I'm lying or don't know what I'm talking about pisses me off.

LOL. Apparently we are all assholes by your criteria, since we've all corrected you. And I never said you were lying, you're just very misinformed.

TELL ME WHAT "EXACTLY" IS WRONG IN MY OP??

EVEN IF I GOT A FEW STUPID THINGS WRONG, THE MAIN POINT OF MY POST IS CORRECT.

In subjects like this, getting just one "stupid thing" wrong can mean you are entirely wrong. Or in your case, getting 10-20 "stupid things" wrong completely destroyed any shred of credibility you might have wanted to have upon your entrance here. I recommend you register a new name and start over if you ever want to be taken seriously in OD. Also, you need to know that this forum is about harm reduction, and in this case, getting one "stupid thing" wrong can be the difference between life an death. This thread isn't a life and death matter (though I wish the latter towards you), but its something to remember when you're in this forum.

So are you content with "EXACTLY" what is wrong with your OP? If not, Tchort or I could go through your posts again and find more things you are wrong about.

 

[ilovechronic]

As was pointed out, Naloxone, not Naltrexone, is what is in Suboxone tablets. Bupe has a higher affinity for certain opiate receptors than Naloxone and other agonists and antagonists; but, enough of any opioid agonist or antagonist will overpower the Bupe. A higher than usual dosage of Naloxone would be needed to bring someone out of a Bupe OD (as well a constant infusion as another poster pointed out), and if someone dependant on Bupe went under ultrarapid detox, higher doses of Naltrexone would be needed to remove the Bupe from the receptors. It is not true at all that 'nothing' can remove or supercede Bupe.



See above. Again, Narcan (Naloxone) is given for OD, not Naltrexone.


.

I thought naltrexone can be given for an od also cant it?

And this has ben disussed as i brought it up in an earlier thread but i was under the impression that naltrexone can be used for a bupe OD, but some said that it would not work. Does anyone know for sure if naltrexone has a higher affinity and will kick bupe of the mu receptors?

 

[Tchort]

I thought naltrexone can be given for an od also cant it?

And this has ben disussed as i brought it up in an earlier thread but i was under the impression that naltrexone can be used for a bupe OD, but some said that it would not work. Does anyone know for sure if naltrexone has a higher affinity and will kick bupe of the mu receptors?

Naltrexone can be given for opioid overdose, but generally it isn't. Naloxone is a stronger mu antagonist than Naltrexone, but the main reason it is given for emergency OD recessitation is because it is a very potent antagonist at the mu receptor sites, with a short duration. Naltrexone has a much longer duration. For these reasons it is much more appropriate to use Naloxone over Naltrexone for emergency overdoses. While Naltrexone does work for this purpose and can be used, it just isn't. Nalorphine & Nalmefene are other antagonists, but have very little use in practice.

Does anyone know for sure if naltrexone has a higher affinity and will kick bupe of the mu receptors?

Buprenorphine has higher affinity at the mu receptor sites than Naloxone or Naltrexone.

Enough of either will effectively reverse a Buprenorphine overdose, but it will be well above the normal doses used for OD recessitation.

 

[djsim]

Also, you need to know that this forum is about harm reduction, and in this case, getting one "stupid thing" wrong can be the difference between life an death. .

This is a very good point. You can't come to a harm reduction board and reel of a bunch of "facts" which just aren't true. I mean ppl come on here and say they are going to eat the gel froma whole fentanyl "100mcg" patch, and if no one corrects them that the actual dose is much higher (ie 100mcg/hr) then the outcome would be pretty bad.
It's a tigh-knit community at BL but no one here just shoots people down for the hell of it. I mean someone posted a thread on "all the facts of suboxone" just 2 days ago and the responses were all positive, though we recommended he check the megathread. But yeh, ht epoint is it's pretty important for everyone on here to shoot down misinfirmation... and whether the OP takes it personally or not is an entirely different matter. It's important we don't flame everyone that's new IMO for seemingly "stupid" Qs, but with some people there is no getting it thru their heads

 

[Captain.Heroin]

UPDATE:

GOD I AM SOO PISSED!!! WTF??!!!

I just IV'd my last 40mg's of OC and again, BARELY felt anything. This is ridiculous! I honestly cannot believe that after 4 full days, I'm still having a blockade effect even after 100mg of OC. All it did was take my withdrawl symptoms away, but I got absolutely no high whatsoever. I will never take that much bupe at once again. It's honestly ridiculous. What a GD waste of money.

In summation for those who didn't read through this whole post:

While everyone's experience may vary, my experience this week was the following:

After ingesting a ONE TIME DOSE of 20MG of Suboxone on Monday afternoon at 2PM, I am STILL having a blockade effect on Friday at 11 AM!!!

As I said.. everyone is different so it may not be the same for others, but this was my experience. Unbelievable that it lasts this long. I am beyond pissed right now. What a waste.

Maybe you should have listened to me when I told you 36 hours is ONE half life, and that is not substantial enough to be able to feel opiates again.

You claim you know your shit and then you still aren't listening to pharmacokinetic FACTS when they're being brought STRAIGHT TO YOUR FACE.

Do us all a favor, and do the math for yourself.

If you use your buprenorphine intravenously (e.g. with buprenorphine ampoules) it has a much shorter duration, which, to a lot of people, is more appealing.

Ditto.

The half life of IV buprenorphine is around 5 hours (I cannot quote this, I only saw this written down once, and I don't know if I can get that info again).

Let me just say it's significantly shorter.

Yeah, theres very little chance IMO, that bupe will still be blocking after 4 days..

36 * 7

COME ON PEOPLE, DO THE MATH.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ I refuse to do that math. Talking about clearance of a drug (buprenorphine) and how long to wait before you can get high are totally different. You don't have to wait 7 (or 10 or 12) half-lives of bupe before you can get high off of a full agonist. Depending on the dose, it usually something like 36-72 hours off of bupe is sufficient. The problem with the OP is he is on a huge dose of suboxone and tries to get high off a tiny dose of oxy. But the 7 half-life thing you're quoting isn't the case.

Also, as someone already said (I think it was phrozen), IVing bupe (or any drug really) does not decrease the half-life. It will affect absorption and whatnot, but half-life is inherent to the drug we are talking about and how enzymes metabolize it. So ROA doesn't affect half-life - it doesn't change bupe's from around 36 hours down to 5 hours. Thats ridiculous.

 

[Eight0Eight]

Also, as someone already said (I think it was phrozen), IVing bupe (or any drug really) does not decrease the half-life. It will affect absorption and whatnot, but half-life is inherent to the drug we are talking about and how enzymes metabolize it. So ROA doesn't affect half-life - it doesn't change bupe's from around 36 hours down to 5 hours. Thats ridiculous.

I been wondering about that for a while - couldn't get my head around how IV'ing bupe would make its half life shorter.

Now I know it doesn't!:D

 

[kratom luver]

Yeah, but the shorter duration is a very small benefit (if you can even call it a benefit in the first place) compared to all the negative aspects of IVing Suboxone/Subutex.

That's why I recommended using bupe ampoules and not Subutex or Suboxone.

 

[cold as life]

That was my exact thought the minute I read the first 2 sentences.

Did the OP ever think that maybe your tolerance has been increased by the ridiculous amount of Suboxone you were taking? That's such an unnecessary amount, and considering Buprenorphine's potency, it is going to massively increase your tolerance.



When I read stories like this, I seriously wonder how bad they have been exaggerated. 4mg of Suboxone is NOT going to block the massive amounts of opiates you have listed and were supposedly given by the emergency crew. It would take A LOT more Suboxone to block all that, but with just 4mg, I would bet the fentanyl alone would have broken through for at least some period of time.

Some people are under the impression that Buprenorphine is invincible to other opiates. It's not. With bupe, you will still feel the effects of the other opiates, they just won't be as strong and won't last as long. The only time it fully blocks other opiates is when the dose starts getting really high, like above 8 or 10mg at the very least, and even then, all it takes is an increase in the dosage of the full agonist to counter the Buprenorphine.

And no, there is NO WAY IN HELL Suboxone blocked all those opiates for 2 weeks. That is the definition of impossible. It could never ever ever happen. If you didn't feel those opiates for two weeks, it's because the doses weren't enough for how high your tolerance was. It was NOT from the Suboxone.

Suboxone has a half life, and it ALWAYS abides by that half life, which is 36 hours. After 72 hours, there should be so little left that you will not even be able to notice it.

what would i have to gain by making that up? i didnt get high at all . ive been on suboxone for 3 years never taking a break, its that hard to believe that 40mg of oxycodone a day didnt touch me? why would make that up?

 

[sixpartseven]

Read it again, smarty-pants. I didn't say you made it up, I said you might have exaggerated it. There is a difference between the two. And no, it's not hard to believe "40mg of oxycodone wouldn't touch you." It is, however, hard to believe that it wouldn't touch you after two weeks because of Suboxone. But, it is believable that it wouldn't touch you because of tolerance, which is exactly what I said.

As for the naloxone/naltrexone being used for buprenorphine OD's: it would take massive amounts of either to remove the buprenorphine, and even when they did remove it, it would only be for a short time.

However, there is a tiny ray of sunshine to all this. There is a drug which will easily remove buprenorphine from the receptors. It is called Nalmefene, a very powerful opiate antagonist. The only problem is, the doctors won't know to use it, because you'll be unconscious and unable to tell them what you ODed on. To counter that little problem, I suggest always carrying a card (the card provided to you in the Suboxone information pamphlets most of you should have received) saying you are on Suboxone, just in case you ever need it. It helps in more scenarios than just OD's.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^ I refuse to do that math. Talking about clearance of a drug (buprenorphine) and how long to wait before you can get high are totally different. You don't have to wait 7 (or 10 or 12) half-lives of bupe before you can get high off of a full agonist. Depending on the dose, it usually something like 36-72 hours off of bupe is sufficient. The problem with the OP is he is on a huge dose of suboxone and tries to get high off a tiny dose of oxy. But the 7 half-life thing you're quoting isn't the case.

Also, as someone already said (I think it was phrozen), IVing bupe (or any drug really) does not decrease the half-life. It will affect absorption and whatnot, but half-life is inherent to the drug we are talking about and how enzymes metabolize it. So ROA doesn't affect half-life - it doesn't change bupe's from around 36 hours down to 5 hours. Thats ridiculous.

7 half lives means most of the drug is out of the person's system. Since 1 doesn't work, I suggest a full 7 to make sure you get the full bang for the buck.

Since he takes a lot of bupe in one sitting, and since waiting 3 and 4 days for a minute dose of oxy isn't working, it's clear you have to wait longer for a OC to hit you.

I know what you're talking about JC...I've shot heroin within 24 hours of suboxone...and it felt all as it should. But to combine the two that close together is highly self-defeating and wastes dope. It's better to wait for more of it to get out of your system.

I wouldn't even bother trying to dose 30 or 40mg of oxycodone if you're on bupe TBH.

(the card provided to you in the Suboxone information pamphlets most of you should have received)

LOL @ that...

never got that one.

 

[NJ2NYC2NJ]

i love this thread

 

[sixpartseven]

7 half lives means most of the drug is out of the person's system. Since 1 doesn't work, I suggest a full 7 to make sure you get the full bang for the buck.

Since he takes a lot of bupe in one sitting, and since waiting 3 and 4 days for a minute dose of oxy isn't working, it's clear you have to wait longer for a OC to hit you.

I know what you're talking about JC...I've shot heroin within 24 hours of suboxone...and it felt all as it should. But to combine the two that close together is highly self-defeating and wastes dope. It's better to wait for more of it to get out of your system.

I wouldn't even bother trying to dose 30 or 40mg of oxycodone if you're on bupe TBH.

Obviously you don't know what he's talking about. Waiting 3 or 4 days for a minute dose of Oxycontin isn't working because of tolerance. It is not the bupe blocking it after that long.

That is the whole point of pretty much everything that every one of us has said. The OP (and others) is claiming buprenorphine is blocking for such a long time, when in fact they are taking small doses that are too small for their tolerance.

7 half lives is so much more than what is needed. One or two half lives is enough, as long as you take the proper amount of the opiate for how high your tolerance is.

 

[StaffWriter]

To the OP, 40mg of Oxycodone is NOT GOING TO WORK if you have been of Suboxone for any significant amount of time. My tolerance went way up when I started taking Suboxone. Try taking more at the 36-48 hr mark. Just that simple. You don't have to start an argument based on concrete information when we all respond and react to Bupe differently. That's just ONE of the things wrong with your argument.

 

[funkee]

I got effects from IV H, 5 hours after an 8mg sub having been on sub for more than a week. Of course they were diminished but the bupe didn't block it entirely. Everyone is different. To get full effect from the opioid it can take 24 to 72 hours depending on how much sub you've been on and your metabolism.