Chronic LSD Psychosis?
- Thread starter Psychedelics_r_best
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burn out said:
Well that's where we differ. I don't think telling your best mates you think you are Jesus when you are coming down from a heavy acid trip that much of a problem. It was completely forgotten after that day and never mentioned again. Sounds like piss-all of a problem to me.
If he'd kept saying he was Jesus for months on end afterwards I'dve started to think he had a problem.
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burn out said:
It's more likely than there being some mysterious unknown that has somehow cured people of schizophrenia over the last 100 years tho - particuarly as you are claiming this mysterious unknown has somehow worked out as being exactly equal to the number of cases LSD has allegedly "caused".
Ismene said:
he didn't just tell his best mates, he told a fan. the point is that it's rather absurd to use john lennon as an example of the harmlessness of lsd. even if it didn't have any negative affects on him, that still doesn't mean anything. some people smoke cigarettes their entire lives and never get lung cancer. that doesn't mean cigarettes don't cause lung cancer in other people though.
Ismene said:
obviously you don't understand statistics. to repeat myself, compared with the overall population, the number of people who use lsd is very low. still lower is the number of people who use it often and then, not all of them develop mental problems from it. so even if lsd did cause schizophrenia, that does not necessarily mean it would reflect a statistically significant difference over the past 100 years.
i'm not trying to argue that lsd causes schizophrenia. i'm just pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.
Yeah but John Lennon told fans a lot of things. He used to say stupid things to them just to demonstrate to his friends how none of them ever paid any attention to what he said.
some people smoke cigarettes their entire lives and never get lung cancer. that doesn't mean cigarettes don't cause lung cancer in other people though.
True, but there's a helluva lot more people got cancer from smoking than have got schizophrenia from taking LSD. So far there isn't a single reliable documented case of someone getting schizophrenia from taking LSD.
compared with the overall population, the number of people who use lsd is very low
You're missing the point. The number of people with schizophrenia isn't as big as the entire population. Just a few thousand cases of LSD causing schizophrenia in people who wouldn't have otherwise developed it would be very noticeable in the schizophrenia figures. After all, it's estimated that at least 45million people have taken LSD in the US alone.
some people smoke cigarettes their entire lives and never get lung cancer. that doesn't mean cigarettes don't cause lung cancer in other people though.
True, but there's a helluva lot more people got cancer from smoking than have got schizophrenia from taking LSD. So far there isn't a single reliable documented case of someone getting schizophrenia from taking LSD.
compared with the overall population, the number of people who use lsd is very low
You're missing the point. The number of people with schizophrenia isn't as big as the entire population. Just a few thousand cases of LSD causing schizophrenia in people who wouldn't have otherwise developed it would be very noticeable in the schizophrenia figures. After all, it's estimated that at least 45million people have taken LSD in the US alone.
GoddessLSD-XTC
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I'd say, based on MUCH experience and MANY friends who have tripped: The LSD makes U aware of "Reality" (phony, money-loving Babylon, phony friends) and makes U wanna drop out of society.
$ociety labels ppl that "drop out", "psychotics" but the real psychos are the ppl in this Rat Race who thrive in Babylon and are totally ignorant and outta touch with reality/nature.
$ociety labels ppl that "drop out", "psychotics" but the real psychos are the ppl in this Rat Race who thrive in Babylon and are totally ignorant and outta touch with reality/nature.
Ismene said:
stop changing the subject. the notion that the life of john lennon proves that lsd could not cause schizophrenia has already been refuted.
so stop arguing with me then and argue with the people who claim that there is. i never claimed there was.
not if there was another factor causing the rate of schizophrenia to otherwise decrease. lsd and schizophrenia aside, we know that certain drugs, whether they are psychedelics or amphetamines, benzodiazepines or dissociatives, can cause mental problems. in the past 100 years there has been an explosion in the use of these drugs. has the rate of mental illness skyrocketed since these drugs became popular?
burn out said:
No, you were trying to claim that because John Lennon said something strange to a fan that proves LSD caused him mental problems. I'm pointing out that it showed nothing of the sort.
not if there was another factor causing the rate of schizophrenia to otherwise decrease
Like what?
we know that certain drugs, whether they are psychedelics or amphetamines, benzodiazepines or dissociatives, can cause mental problems
Do we? We know there are some mentally ill people who have used illegal drugs but does that mean illegal drugs cause mental illness?
If every illegal drug in the world vanished tomorrow do you think the number of people with mental problems would fall?
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It should be fairly well accepted that LSD can bring out latent mental illness. Schizophrenia is a slim example of the array of illness that can aflict the mind through using drugs. Ismene, do you think that the behaviour of extremely tweaked out methheads is 'rational' and would be considered mentally stable? I wouldn't personally, and that is drug induced behaviour ie. meth can cause psychosis. Whether that be in the form of extreme agitation and panic or outrught delerium doesn't really matter; its a a drug that can provoke a mentally negative reaction.
Now LSD is very unlikely to cause any mental problems in those otherwise not predisposed; but the fact is that ANYONE can 'attain' an anxiety/PTSD type problem from using psychedelics; I have defintely had moments of extreme terror that still affect me adversely. This I know, compltely and utterly. If you have any belief that psychedelics can HEAL; then you must accept the opposite. I believe that, so I know that these drugs can indeed cause a mryiad of utterly bizarre problems.
And people can develop schizoprenia later in life; Miss Swilows has a close friend whose Uncle developed it at about 40- and I watched my good friends mother disintegrate into utterly paranoid schizophrenia. I have had to sit and listen to utter delusions while she cried for her son. Incidentally, her other son developed schizophrenia in his twenties and comitted suicide.
BTW Dalfir- that Stephen King story, The Jaunt, is fucking awesome; I read it again about a week ago. Odd that you mention it.
Peace
Now LSD is very unlikely to cause any mental problems in those otherwise not predisposed; but the fact is that ANYONE can 'attain' an anxiety/PTSD type problem from using psychedelics; I have defintely had moments of extreme terror that still affect me adversely. This I know, compltely and utterly. If you have any belief that psychedelics can HEAL; then you must accept the opposite. I believe that, so I know that these drugs can indeed cause a mryiad of utterly bizarre problems.
And people can develop schizoprenia later in life; Miss Swilows has a close friend whose Uncle developed it at about 40- and I watched my good friends mother disintegrate into utterly paranoid schizophrenia. I have had to sit and listen to utter delusions while she cried for her son. Incidentally, her other son developed schizophrenia in his twenties and comitted suicide.
BTW Dalfir- that Stephen King story, The Jaunt, is fucking awesome; I read it again about a week ago. Odd that you mention it.
Peace
Ismene said:
no, i was just trying to point out the flaw in your claim that "john lennon took more than lsd than syd barrett could ever dream of and never had the slightest problem. based on interviews, i hardly think that john lennon himself would agree that lsd never caused him "the slightest problem". furthermore, like i pointed out before, even if it didn't cause him any problems, your case study of one person means nothing. what i was really trying to say is that by his own accounts, john lennon was a drug addict and not the most mentally stable person and he experienced such horrific trips on LSD he had to stop using it. if you want to make the already fallacious argument "LSD is perfectly safe because X person took LSD X amount of times and never had the slightest problem" then why don't you at least choose someone for which that is undisputably true for?
why don't you ask some experts on schizophrenia?
i covered this already. we know there are some people with lung cancer who smoke cigarettes but that does mean cigarettes cause lung cancer? perhaps the people who are predisposed to lung cancer are simply more likely to smoke? (keep in mind this is just one example, there are many other more subtle relationships that would be more analogous to the relationship between drugs and mental illness and i am only using this one to illustrate a broad point, so don't claim this is not a proper analogy).
probably but even if it increased by tenfold that still wouldn't prove drugs can't cause mental illness and even if it decreased by tenfold it wouldn't prove that drugs do cause mental illness. you claim to understand the fact that correlation does not equal causation but you're still making arguments that rest on the assumption that it does.
the broader point i am trying to make above is that because correlation does not equal causation, you need to stop making arguments based on that assumption. for example, let's say 10 people with no "risk factors" for mental illness begin heavily using all kinds of different drugs. they become addicted to meth and crack and take loads of mdma and drink alcohol all the time and constantly smoke weed while experimenting with datura and dmt and mushrooms and peyote and barbituates and benzos, etc. after 10 years of heavily using drugs, they get clean yet a majority of them complain of lasting mental problems they attribute to their former heavy use of drugs. you could always make the argument that these people would have developed these mental problems anyway. but most people are smart enough not to dismiss the detrimental affect heavy drug use can have on the mind.
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i hardly think that john lennon himself would agree that lsd never caused him "the slightest problem".
Well he said in the playboy interview in 1980 that he took millions of trips in the sixties and never had a flashback in his life and "I'm not promoting LSD so don't all you committees start writing to me but all the things the government says it does to you are bullshit".
he experienced such horrific trips on LSD he had to stop using it
Yeah, he stopped for about a fortnight. After taking it almost daily for 18 months. Then he went back to it and tripped with Yoko and Derek Taylor and had one of the most profound, positive experience of his life. In 1974 he wrote to Derek saying "Found some nice windowpane, my mind is clear" so he kept using it.
Incidentally, having a bad trip is not the same thing as having mental illness. You can have a bad trip and not be mentally ill.
LSD is perfectly safe because X person took LSD X amount of times and never had the slightest problem
But isn't your entire argument "Syd took LSD and he became mentally ill so LSD causes mental illness"?
why don't you ask some experts on schizophrenia?
So is this mysterious factor something that has affected the entire world? Or just western countries with access to LSD? If your theory is correct then if we go to a country like China (where people might not be as familiar with LSD) we should have seen a massive fall in the number of people with schizophrenia over the last 100 years.
but most people are smart enough not to dismiss the detrimental affect heavy drug use can have on the mind.
Exactly what "heavy drug use" are you referring to? Are we still talking about LSD?
And are you saying "detrimental effect on the mind" is the same thing as it causing mental illness? I totally agree using drugs can have a detrimental effect on someones mind - waking up oin a rainy day can have a detrimental effect on peoples minds - what I'm questioning is whether it can make someone schizophrenic or mentally ill.
What do you consider abuse of LSD to be for example? How many people will take LSD every day for months on end? LSD self-regulates so if you try and abuse it the less enjoyable the effects become.
Well he said in the playboy interview in 1980 that he took millions of trips in the sixties and never had a flashback in his life and "I'm not promoting LSD so don't all you committees start writing to me but all the things the government says it does to you are bullshit".
he experienced such horrific trips on LSD he had to stop using it
Yeah, he stopped for about a fortnight. After taking it almost daily for 18 months. Then he went back to it and tripped with Yoko and Derek Taylor and had one of the most profound, positive experience of his life. In 1974 he wrote to Derek saying "Found some nice windowpane, my mind is clear" so he kept using it.
Incidentally, having a bad trip is not the same thing as having mental illness. You can have a bad trip and not be mentally ill.
LSD is perfectly safe because X person took LSD X amount of times and never had the slightest problem
But isn't your entire argument "Syd took LSD and he became mentally ill so LSD causes mental illness"?
why don't you ask some experts on schizophrenia?
So is this mysterious factor something that has affected the entire world? Or just western countries with access to LSD? If your theory is correct then if we go to a country like China (where people might not be as familiar with LSD) we should have seen a massive fall in the number of people with schizophrenia over the last 100 years.
but most people are smart enough not to dismiss the detrimental affect heavy drug use can have on the mind.
Exactly what "heavy drug use" are you referring to? Are we still talking about LSD?
And are you saying "detrimental effect on the mind" is the same thing as it causing mental illness? I totally agree using drugs can have a detrimental effect on someones mind - waking up oin a rainy day can have a detrimental effect on peoples minds - what I'm questioning is whether it can make someone schizophrenic or mentally ill.
What do you consider abuse of LSD to be for example? How many people will take LSD every day for months on end? LSD self-regulates so if you try and abuse it the less enjoyable the effects become.
With any luck the point that rising drug use hasn't resulted in rising schizophrenia rates has just sunk a hole in Browns plan to reclassify cannabis:
The advisory council's decision was taken at a private meeting during which it examined new research from Keele university about links between cannabis and mental illness, according to the BBC. The study found no evidence that rising cannabis use in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s led to increases in the incidence of schizophrenia later on.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/03/drugspolicy
The advisory council's decision was taken at a private meeting during which it examined new research from Keele university about links between cannabis and mental illness, according to the BBC. The study found no evidence that rising cannabis use in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s led to increases in the incidence of schizophrenia later on.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/03/drugspolicy
no. i never once said anything of that sort and the fact that you would think that was my entire argument after all the posts i've made stressing the fact that correlation does not equal causation shows me this is not even worth discussing with you.
edit: and i also want to say that i don't think you're stupid or that communicating with you to the point of reaching common ground is impossible. it's just not worth the time and effort in this specific case.
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chicpoena
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This whole argument seems to be resting on the conception of schizophrenia as an actual illness, which it is not. Schizophrenia is a misnomer, and there is a movement in psychology to eliminate the term because it doesn't really describe anything. If you have 2 off this list and 1 off this list, you're schizophrenic? It reads like a recipe! People certainly go psychotic, and may remain psychotic for their whole lives, but they are not suffering from a biological disease like many people think of when they think of schizophrenia.
The truth is that psychiatrists cannot even define schizophrenia and the diagnosis itself has been found over and over again to be invalid because of poor inter-rater reliability. One psychiatrist may decide you are schizophrenic. Another one may decide that you are bipolar instead. Because "schizophrenia" is an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of very different symptoms (catatonia, hallucinations) it is impossible to define it.
Not even to mention the fact that the World Health Organization study on schizophrenia found that people in first world countries were far more likely to suffer from it than those in third world countries, and that schizophrenics in third world countries have much higher permanent recovery rates (no psychotic relapses). This is because the psychotic experience is built into a lot of third world cultures... spirit possession is one common explanation they use. Because psychotic people are not told that they have a brain disease (they actually don't), and it is recognized that they are going through a powerful transformative experience (which may appear to be negative), after the resolution of said experience the formerly psychotic person is far more emotionally healthy. Psychotic people in the first world are pariahs who are either medicated to the point where they cannot think straight or locked up in institutions (rare today). There is no community support for the psychotic, and their experiences are denigrated.
As far as my beliefs with "Chronic LSD psychosis," it is no surprise that LSD is an extremely powerful psychic catalyst. The experiences that it can open up inside of you could be so traumatizing, that the trauma itself is what makes you psychotic. Then, if you're told by a psychiatrist you've now "caught" schizophrenia from LSD, you're told take psychiatric drugs to dull the experience instead of fully processing it. That's where the real damage takes place.
I have never taken LSD, but I did abuse mushrooms while I was emotionally unstable. Had I gone to a psychiatrist and told him what I was experiencing, I almost surely would have been diagnosed schizophrenic and medicated, if not committed. I struggled with psychosis for about a year, year and a half, before I emerged from it. I am now far more emotionally balanced, happy, and spiritually open. I am thankful for having gone through it, although at the time I ranged from suicidal to apathetically depressed, because it gave me true insight into the nature of my mind and my life as a human BEing.
Stanislav Grof's book Spiritual Emergency, and a very kind and thoughtful psychotherapist helped me process my psychosis. Now I am a whole person.
The truth is that psychiatrists cannot even define schizophrenia and the diagnosis itself has been found over and over again to be invalid because of poor inter-rater reliability. One psychiatrist may decide you are schizophrenic. Another one may decide that you are bipolar instead. Because "schizophrenia" is an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of very different symptoms (catatonia, hallucinations) it is impossible to define it.
Not even to mention the fact that the World Health Organization study on schizophrenia found that people in first world countries were far more likely to suffer from it than those in third world countries, and that schizophrenics in third world countries have much higher permanent recovery rates (no psychotic relapses). This is because the psychotic experience is built into a lot of third world cultures... spirit possession is one common explanation they use. Because psychotic people are not told that they have a brain disease (they actually don't), and it is recognized that they are going through a powerful transformative experience (which may appear to be negative), after the resolution of said experience the formerly psychotic person is far more emotionally healthy. Psychotic people in the first world are pariahs who are either medicated to the point where they cannot think straight or locked up in institutions (rare today). There is no community support for the psychotic, and their experiences are denigrated.
As far as my beliefs with "Chronic LSD psychosis," it is no surprise that LSD is an extremely powerful psychic catalyst. The experiences that it can open up inside of you could be so traumatizing, that the trauma itself is what makes you psychotic. Then, if you're told by a psychiatrist you've now "caught" schizophrenia from LSD, you're told take psychiatric drugs to dull the experience instead of fully processing it. That's where the real damage takes place.
I have never taken LSD, but I did abuse mushrooms while I was emotionally unstable. Had I gone to a psychiatrist and told him what I was experiencing, I almost surely would have been diagnosed schizophrenic and medicated, if not committed. I struggled with psychosis for about a year, year and a half, before I emerged from it. I am now far more emotionally balanced, happy, and spiritually open. I am thankful for having gone through it, although at the time I ranged from suicidal to apathetically depressed, because it gave me true insight into the nature of my mind and my life as a human BEing.
Stanislav Grof's book Spiritual Emergency, and a very kind and thoughtful psychotherapist helped me process my psychosis. Now I am a whole person.
Icculus
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I can't believe that people are citing john lennon's extreme LSD use as a reason that LSD doesn't cause mental illness. Not only is the amount of LSD he took almost absurd considering the amount of time he supposedly took it in, but what makes you think he would be telling these maintream magazines the truth about how much he took? Think about it. Do you really think that just because John Lennon says that what the government says abut LSD is bullshit, that makes it all true? Sure, most is BS, but really....John Lennon was an absolute musical genius, but he isn't a doctor. all he knows about LSD is the same that the rest of us learn from taking LSD, actually far less because he was taking it before many significant studies had been done on it.
there's no way of knowing who took more L, syd or lennon. All you have to go on is anecdotal evidence from people within the psychedelic subculture. There's no way to know how high is was mic'd, or how often they took it. Syd was eating large amounts on a daily basis just like john. also, maybe consider the fact that john lennon was a genius, not your average guy, and perhaps that contributed to him being able to keep his mind together through all the L he was eating.
These people are really grasping at straws trying to keep themselves convinced that LSD doesn't affect mental conditions. pretty sad....
there's no way of knowing who took more L, syd or lennon. All you have to go on is anecdotal evidence from people within the psychedelic subculture. There's no way to know how high is was mic'd, or how often they took it. Syd was eating large amounts on a daily basis just like john. also, maybe consider the fact that john lennon was a genius, not your average guy, and perhaps that contributed to him being able to keep his mind together through all the L he was eating.
These people are really grasping at straws trying to keep themselves convinced that LSD doesn't affect mental conditions. pretty sad....
Icculus said:
They're saying it because other people are citing Syd Barratts LSD use as a reason for him becoming mentally ill.
These people are really grasping at straws trying to keep themselves convinced that LSD doesn't affect mental conditions. pretty sad....
I think people are misunderstanding the point. We all accept that drug use can make you depressed, anxious etc. Just like everything else in life from having a girlfriend or having a job can.
What they arn't accepting is that drug use can make a sane person insane. I do not believe you can take a sane person, give him LSD and make him insane. LSD just doesn't do that - that's why the CIA abandoned it as a weapon.
Bottom line is Syd Barratt became mentally ill because he was mentally ill. Just like millions of other mentally ill people who have never taken LSD. The LSD had absolutely nothing to do with it. I know that's boring and dull but the truth often is boring and dull.
I know it's a lot more exciting and romantic to believe "He took too much acid and NEVER CAME BACK DUDE!!" but it's absolute bollocks.
I know it's a lot more exciting and romantic to believe "He took too much acid and NEVER CAME BACK DUDE!!" but it's absolute bollocks.
L2R
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my episodes of what you describe as acute LSD psychosis/existential crisis, one of which, as i've written many times before, led me to be locked in a psych ward overnight, have stayed with me
after 3-4 years without psychedelics, i had a single dose about a month back, and it has brought it all back to the forefront of my mind. the stuff was once my DOC and now i'm completely sworn off of psychs. any more, and i don't see myself coming back.
now, several times each day i am forced to focus to keep my head together.
i don't know whether it was the lots of lsd i have had that caused this or as most of you claim it has awoken latent problems i've always had. whatever the case may be, since "reaching for the secret too soon", i quite commonly feel very broken.
in fact, i came into the psychedelic forum to look for this very topic, or at least create a new one.
can anyone relate? how do you cope with such .... (seeming) insights?
pm if you want to or can help
after 3-4 years without psychedelics, i had a single dose about a month back, and it has brought it all back to the forefront of my mind. the stuff was once my DOC and now i'm completely sworn off of psychs. any more, and i don't see myself coming back.
now, several times each day i am forced to focus to keep my head together.
i don't know whether it was the lots of lsd i have had that caused this or as most of you claim it has awoken latent problems i've always had. whatever the case may be, since "reaching for the secret too soon", i quite commonly feel very broken.
in fact, i came into the psychedelic forum to look for this very topic, or at least create a new one.
can anyone relate? how do you cope with such .... (seeming) insights?
pm if you want to or can help
Icculus
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Wow, i'm just going to let you wallow in your hard-earned ignorance. Perhaps read the post above from someone who has experienced what we're discussing.Ismene said:
Syd Barrett had no signs of mental illness before he took LSD, he began taking LSD nearly constantly, and then he develops MARKED mental illness in a relatively short amount of time. He went from normal person to excusing himself from the dinner table, going to the bathroom, and coming back with a huge chunk cut out of the front of his hair and acting like nothing happened. His problems flared up much faster than normal schizophrenia develops. Syd had predisposed mental condition, and LSD brought it out much more intense and probably a lot sooner than if he hadn't taken it. John Lennon didn't have a predisposed mental illness, and he was still going a little batty.
Read the Pink Floyd biography "A Saucerfull of Secrets," then do a couple years of work with schizophrenic patients, then come talk about this. Right now you just sound like a little kid in denial, trying to console your inner paranoia about LSD not being perfectly safe. I just think its funny how you use the word absolutely with such confidence when you have no really have no idea what your talking about.