Mental Health Antipsychotics suck!

Ive been on several antipychcotics and none were very helpful. Effexor almost put me in the hospital. Im currently on low dose of risperidone. Out of all if them i like this the best. I take it mostly for anxiety bc I can't get benzos bc im on MAT fir Suboxone.

But honestly if I look back, none of those meds had a fair chance bc I was using at same time. Not only is that a mess chemical wise but it makes it near impossible for providers to accurately diagnose and treat mental health. Since I stopped using and take my meds right I feel high all the time. Because my mind is clear and clean.
 
I was under the impression that every new indication had to be substantiated.

You would be amazed at how low the bar is and that studies are designed to support evidence.

I always tell people to look at Prozac. Before the SSRIs, SDNIs and SNDRIs we had the tricyclics. Now the problem with the tricyclics is their toxicity in overdose so yes, I see why researchers would seek a less toxic alternative. But you will note that even now the 'gold standard' is a tricyclic and in the case of newer antidepressants they all seem to compare the highest prescribable dose of their new medicine with the lowest dose of the tricyclic agreed to produce antidepressant activity.

So no shit that 10mg of amitriptyline will demonstrate around the same efficacy as 80mg of fluoxetine.

My own take on this is if a clinician has reason to believe a patient presents an intentional overdose risk, the clinician only provides a seven day supply but allows reorders. It isn't perfect but I have asked a group of pharmacists who were pretty vocal on the fact that some other classes of medication are prescribed on a week-by-week basis and that doing so for the tricyclics would not present a problem for them.

It's the same as paracetamol (acetaminophen). We used to have a couple of brands in which along with 500mg of paracetamol, there was also 250mg of methionine. The point being that paracetamol toxicity is due to the body running out of methionine, swapping to a second metabolic pathway that ends with NAQPI. I even checked the cost and for a box of 32 x 500mg paracetamol, it added 8p.
 
They got me in jail. Night nurse said they paneled me. And that I had to take haldol. if not, they would bring COs to my cell and hold me down and force an injection. They did bring in the COs, so I just ate the pill. it's a bad precedent to set. That's how they got me. Living in public housing they forced injections on me in the sense of either take the injection or go back to the psych ward.
 
They got me in jail. Night nurse said they paneled me. And that I had to take haldol. if not, they would bring COs to my cell and hold me down and force an injection. They did bring in the COs, so I just ate the pill. it's a bad precedent to set. That's how they got me. Living in public housing they forced injections on me in the sense of either take the injection or go back to the psych ward.
I’m sorry that happened to you
 
You would be amazed at how low the bar is and that studies are designed to support evidence.

I always tell people to look at Prozac. Before the SSRIs, SDNIs and SNDRIs we had the tricyclics. Now the problem with the tricyclics is their toxicity in overdose so yes, I see why researchers would seek a less toxic alternative. But you will note that even now the 'gold standard' is a tricyclic and in the case of newer antidepressants they all seem to compare the highest prescribable dose of their new medicine with the lowest dose of the tricyclic agreed to produce antidepressant activity.

So no shit that 10mg of amitriptyline will demonstrate around the same efficacy as 80mg of fluoxetine.

My own take on this is if a clinician has reason to believe a patient presents an intentional overdose risk, the clinician only provides a seven day supply but allows reorders. It isn't perfect but I have asked a group of pharmacists who were pretty vocal on the fact that some other classes of medication are prescribed on a week-by-week basis and that doing so for the tricyclics would not present a problem for them.

It's the same as paracetamol (acetaminophen). We used to have a couple of brands in which along with 500mg of paracetamol, there was also 250mg of methionine. The point being that paracetamol toxicity is due to the body running out of methionine, swapping to a second metabolic pathway that ends with NAQPI. I even checked the cost and for a box of 32 x 500mg paracetamol, it added 8p.
These are big claims.

TCAs also have a higher incidence of side effects. I don't think it's good to give them in most cases because of the potential to overdose, especially if a cleaner agent works better.

As for the gold standard as an antidepressant, please offer a simple citation.

And for the studies that used low doses of a TCA compared to a higher dose of an SSRI. Anyway, even if so, Prozac is safer. But I'd like access to this knowledge if it's there.
 
I just got put on Doxepin 6mg for insomnia which is a tricyclic antidepressant for 4 nights. Slept mostly through the night last night but woke up drowsy until noon.
Not sure about the antidepressant benefits yet.
 
These are big claims.

TCAs also have a higher incidence of side effects. I don't think it's good to give them in most cases because of the potential to overdose, especially if a cleaner agent works better.

As for the gold standard as an antidepressant, please offer a simple citation.

And for the studies that used low doses of a TCA compared to a higher dose of an SSRI. Anyway, even if so, Prozac is safer. But I'd like access to this knowledge if it's there.

Fair point that tricyclics have a different side-effect profile but I did suggest a facile solution to prevent people intentionally overdosing with a tricyclic. I assume so in which case what are your objections?

Here is one meta-analaysis. But there are many. I'm happy to find them as long as you are happy to read them and by all means be critical - critical analysis is key.


The important thing is checking the funding of a study. Because it's a sad truth that some studies are sort of tailored to give certain results. If you look through my posts you will note my repeately make paople aware of www.alltrials.net which has the simple goal of introducing a law requiring all human trials of a medicine be published, whatever it's findings. Because the ultimate sanction on researchers whose study doesn't support a given result is that the paper isn't published. I'm not saying this is automatically the case here, but Super-MAB was an infamous example of lack of publishing leading to extremely bad outcomes for the people involved in the first-into-man studies (which I have pointed out along with other examples).
 
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BTW Also important to note that on average only about half the patients prescribed one antidepressant will experience significant improvements in their mood. I am more than happy to provide reference to that as well, if you want it. But I feel worth noting as if one assumes a high level of effacacy, it may well mislead a person into thinking as a whole antidepressants aren't very good. But it's accepted and a clinician will usually swap a patients to another medication.
 
Fair point that tricyclics have a different side-effect profile but I did suggest a facile solution to prevent people intentionally overdosing with a tricyclic. I assume so in which case what are your objections?

Here is one meta-analaysis. But there are many. I'm happy to find them as long as you are happy to read them and by all means be critical - critical analysis is key.


The important thing is checking the funding of a study. Because it's a sad truth that some studies are sort of tailored to give certain results. If you look through my posts you will note my repeately make paople aware of www.alltrials.net which has the simple goal of introducing a law requiring all human trials of a medicine be published, whatever it's findings. Because the ultimate sanction on researchers whose study doesn't support a given result is that the paper isn't published. I'm not saying this is automatically the case here, but Super-MAB was an infamous example of lack of publishing leading to extremely bad outcomes for the people involved in the first-into-man studies (which I have pointed out along with other examples).
My main objection would be that people don't want to have to fill a script 52 times a year. And that side effects are a big reason of why people stop taking a medication to begin with.

I still though don't see how this TCA is the gold standard for depression.

I'll read them if they're more recent. That one is from 1998, which itself makes the claim dubious...

I don't think the system is perfect by any means, but for what it is I think it's great. Never going to be perfect.

We have all these doctors and institutions that prefer SSRIs over TCAs, so I'm just going to trust them on that one. Basically.
 
My main objection would be that people don't want to have to fill a script 52 times a year. And that side effects are a big reason of why people stop taking a medication to begin with.

I still though don't see how this TCA is the gold standard for depression.

I'll read them if they're more recent. That one is from 1998, which itself makes the claim dubious...

I don't think the system is perfect by any means, but for what it is I think it's great. Never going to be perfect.

We have all these doctors and institutions that prefer SSRIs over TCAs, so I'm just going to trust them on that one. Basically.

I have never been on a ssri but i have been on a snri called effexor and honestly i would take anything over that shit. I was only on it 2 weeks and i stll got the worst wd's ever from it. Brain zaps galore. I also didnt orgasm once on that shit and i had what i called rubber dck syndrome. I could get it up but i didnt feel anything at all

Out of the tricyclics i have been prescribed amitriptyline, nortriptyline and trimipramine. Nether of those sucked nearly as bad as effexor did
 
My main objection would be that people don't want to have to fill a script 52 times a year. And that side effects are a big reason of why people stop taking a medication to begin with.

I still though don't see how this TCA is the gold standard for depression.

I'll read them if they're more recent. That one is from 1998, which itself makes the claim dubious...

I don't think the system is perfect by any means, but for what it is I think it's great. Never going to be perfect.

We have all these doctors and institutions that prefer SSRIs over TCAs, so I'm just going to trust them on that one. Basically.

I didn't hide the fact that in overdose tricyclics are more toxic thus a valid reason for the introduction of other agents did not exist BUT only a minority of patients represent a suicide risk so the fact that it might be a bit more fiddly for a minority of patients isn't a sound basis for dismissing the entire class. Neither did I assert that other antidepressants were of no value or inactive. Only that the tricyclics remain statistically the most effective. If another class works for people, fine. I am never said they didn't, nor that they should stop taking a medication that works.



The most effective antidepressant compared to placebo was the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline, which increased the chances of treatment response more than two-fold (odds ratio [OR] 2.13, 95% credible interval [CrI] 1.89 to 2.41). The least effective was the serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor reboxetine, which increased treatment response by 37% (OR 1.37, 95% CrI 1.16 to 1.63).



Clomipramine is still the ‘gold standard’ SNRI drug and may be more effective than other antidepressants in severe depression. Its HCR affinities indicate that it is the most potent and effective single SNRI drug available. Amitriptyline has strong evidence for efficacy, but possibly not greater than that for nortriptyline, which may therefore be preferred in many situations (probably including use in migraine and pain syndromes) because of its advantageous pharmacological characteristics. A direct comparison of nortriptyline vs clomipramine, which has strong evidence for clinically relevant superiority via serotonergic effects, would be useful



This systematic review suggests that amitriptyline should remain in its position as the gold-standard antidepressant.


Just as the placebo effect is well studied, so is the nocebo effect. If one believes a medicine won't work, there is a measuable reduction in how effective that medicine will be. In the case of antidepressants, the fact that one class doesn't work isn't a good indicator of how effective another class will be.

I've always thought that with mood disorders, almost nobody neatly fits into a single diagnostic criteria. If a person tells their GP that they feel anxious, depressed and can't sleep, is it appropriate to treat all three symptoms seperately or to conclude that the most prominent symptom is likely to be the cause of the other symptoms? Go back sixty years and it was quite likely that a doctor would provide a medication to treat each symptom. But experience has shown that while that approach can be very effective in the short-term, the long-term outcomes were not so good.

I think I'm right in saying that the most effective treatment for unipolar depression is person-centred therapy. Unfortunately person-centred therapy is also the most expensive treatment because it essentially means an open ended series of therapy sessions. It is the patient who decides when they no longer need the treatment. But it involves no chemicals, is tailored to the needs of the patient and usually it's possible to return to the same therapist if more sessions are needed at some later date.
 
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I didn't hide the fact that in overdose tricyclics are more toxic thus a valid reason for the introduction of other agents did not exist BUT only a minority of patients represent a suicide risk so the fact that it might be a bit more fiddly for a minority of patients isn't a sound basis for dismissing the entire class. Neither did I assert that other antidepressants were of no value or inactive. Only that the tricyclics remain statistically the most effective. If another class works for people, fine. I am never said they didn't, nor that they should stop taking a medication that works.
Maybe because they're not given unless the doctor is absolutely sure that suicide risk is absent completely, which is rare. Lol, when did I dismiss the class?

The most effective antidepressant compared to placebo was the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline, which increased the chances of treatment response more than two-fold (odds ratio [OR] 2.13, 95% credible interval [CrI] 1.89 to 2.41). The least effective was the serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor reboxetine, which increased treatment response by 37% (OR 1.37, 95% CrI 1.16 to 1.63).
One study and now?
A single study of over 15 years old. Burden of proof not satisfied.
Clomipramine is still the ‘gold standard’ SNRI drug and may be more effective than other antidepressants in severe depression. Its HCR affinities indicate that it is the most potent and effective single SNRI drug available. Amitriptyline has strong evidence for efficacy, but possibly not greater than that for nortriptyline, which may therefore be preferred in many situations (probably including use in migraine and pain syndromes) because of its advantageous pharmacological characteristics. A direct comparison of nortriptyline vs clomipramine, which has strong evidence for clinically relevant superiority via serotonergic effects, would be useful
To be fair that's not Elavil as you said. Other than that, SNRI activity and evaluating that comes after seeing if it simply works better in people.
This is the first study I've seen that I believe is persuasive.
This systematic review suggests that amitriptyline should remain in its position as the gold-standard antidepressant.
Which doesn't mean that everyone should call it such. I'm thinking several meta-analyses are needed from you.
Just as the placebo effect is well studied, so is the nocebo effect. If one believes a medicine won't work, there is a measuable reduction in how effective that medicine will be. In the case of antidepressants, the fact that one class doesn't work isn't a good indicator of how effective another class will be.
You lost me here. Don't know how this supports your argument.
I've always thought that with mood disorders, almost nobody neatly fits into a single diagnostic criteria. If a person tells their GP that they feel anxious, depressed and can't sleep, is it appropriate to treat all three symptoms seperately or to conclude that the most prominent symptom is likely to be the cause of the other symptoms? Go back sixty years and it was quite likely that a doctor would provide a medication to treat each symptom. But experience has shown that while that approach can be very effective in the short-term, the long-term outcomes were not so good.
Makes sense. Okay.
I think I'm right in saying that the most effective treatment for unipolar depression is person-centred therapy. Unfortunately person-centred therapy is also the most expensive treatment because it essentially means an open ended series of therapy sessions. It is the patient who decides when they no longer need the treatment. But it involves no chemicals, is tailored to the needs of the patient and usually it's possible to return to the same therapist if more sessions are needed at some later date.
How idealist.

I get the impression that you hate the system. Why I do not know.
 
I get the impression that you hate the system. Why I do not know.

I don't hate anything. I just know how studies can be designed to favour a given outcome.

I pointed out that before SSRIs, SDRIs, SNDRIs we had tricyclics. I did not specify which tricyclic because different papers would make use of a different tricyclic, which is well explored in the meta-analysis.

Speaking of that:

Which of the fourty four academic papers the meta-analysis is based on do you feel gives an inaccurate or biased conclusion? Because you do undertand what a meta-analysis is, right? It's based on many, many studies and in the case provide 44 and I even pointed out that it's worth noting where the funding came from as at least a couple were at least a little dubious.

If you have a more recent meta-analysis that makes a similar comparison with different conclusions, I am absolutely happy to read it and if my information is now discredited then I am open to new data. I am not emotionally invested in a given statement. But the link I gave cites a LOT of papers.

But if you assert an unfalsifable statement, that's in the realm of belief, not science.
 
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I don't hate anything. I just know how studies can be designed to favour a given outcome.
Pretty routine of a thing in most research.
I pointed out that before SSRIs, SDRIs, SNDRIs we had tricyclics. I did not specify which tricyclic because different papers would make use of a different tricyclic, which is well explored in the meta-analysis.
You were saying Elavil, dude. Also that wasn't a meta-analysis you cited fyi.
Speaking of that:

Which of the fourty four academic papers the meta-analysis is based on do you feel gives an inaccurate or biased conclusion? Because you do undertand what a meta-analysis is, right? It's based on many, many studies and in the case provide 44 and I even pointed out that it's worth noting where the funding came from as at least a couple were at least a little dubious.
Was not a meta-analysis, again. Good definition for you to look up.

No one meta-analysis can prove such a dramatic a point as you're trying to make. Several and then we'll talk. This time an actual one though please. I'm a busy man!
If you have a more recent meta-analysis that makes a similar comparison with different conclusions, I am absolutely happy to read it and if my information is now discredited then I am open to new data. I am not emotionally invested in a given statement. But the link I gave cites a LOT of papers.

But if you assert an unfalsifable statement, that's in the realm of belief, not science.
And yet it's one systematic review. I do not have the burden of proof here. It's your claims that I don't see holding up.

It's not just about the truth in a vacuum, but what other people are reading on here. So I feel compelled to set the record straight.
 
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Any thoughts on going back to using MAOIs?

I don't know much about their use as antidepressants but I believe at least two of them are being studied for the treatment of other disorders.

I'm sure when they were the only option they were still seen as providing better outcomes than leaving a person suffering with severe clinicial depression unmedicated. But I suggest that if they still have a place in the treatment of severe clinical depression, it might be safer to limit their use to in-patient settings.

Sadly, in-patient treatment is now too rare. But IF someone is an in-patient, not only can the risks of certain medications be ameliorated but it would seem an oppotune time to integrate medication with therapy. If someone is in need of admission, just giving them medication seems a wasted opportunity to provide a suite of theraputic interventions.
 
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Why didn't you quote me bro?

"SSRIs versus tricyclic antidepressants in depressed inpatients: A meta-analysis of efficacy and tolerability"​

From 1998 again. Lmao.

So not a meta-analysis?​

That one was, but something tells me that Google had to clue you in on what a meta-analysis is in the first place. Which doesn't make you terribly credible.
Your TCAs had the highest dropout rates in this one. And clomipramine that you cited before was worse than placebo. Also overall, read that "certainty of evidence was moderate to very low." Did you read this one?
This one is at least not from the 90's, it's from 2000. Can't admit this one either. But I'll bite a bit, as it says that SSRIs are more tolerable, and how many people stop taking their antidepressants because of tolerability? Tons and tons.
You will note the second link is also to an extremely large meta-analysis of 102 academic papers. The first more broadly compares 21 antidepressants.

Everyone is free to read any or all of the papers if they wish.
Noted. But 25 years ago, when they were still offering fenfluramine. Medicinal practices are much better these days. I'm happy for it.
 
nortriptyline
nortriptyline

This shit ↓ died down but I still feel it. –Haven't taken it in over two weeks. Anybody experienced with this or know someone who may be?

I've been on nortryptiline for about 3 weeks now. I feel an inner vibration daily..and my left arm is shaky and feels weak.

Would love to hear anything from anyone, dangers, good things etc.


h‍ttps://www.reddit.com/r/nortriptyline/comments/vq4hxv/comment/l8wfs15/
 
This shit ↓ died down but I still feel it. –Haven't taken it in over two weeks. Anybody experienced with this or know someone who may be?

I've been on nortryptiline for about 3 weeks now. I feel an inner vibration daily..and my left arm is shaky and feels weak.

Would love to hear anything from anyone, dangers, good things etc.


h‍ttps://www.reddit.com/r/nortriptyline/comments/vq4hxv/comment/l8wfs15/
This happened to me on Protriptyline which is also a tricyclic norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, do you have asthma?

Just to chime in the best antidepressant I've ever taken hands down is Parnate which is an MAOI but it interacted with everything fun so I wound up having a ton of hypertensive crisises- if you can avoid stimulants, empathogens, aged cheeses and tramadol/kratom I strongly recommend them
 
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