Does kratom withdrawal feel terrible for anybody else?

[JackARoe]

Does anyone else think a short term suboxone taper could help getting off kratom?

If you are serious about getting off this is what I would do. Do not let the suboxone get its hooks in you. So what I would do is first day off kratom take .5. Then maybe the next day take 3000 mgs of gabapentin. Then next day another .5 of suboxone. Use it only a few times. Weeks not needed. But gabapentin completely gets rid of minor wd. It is a must.

I also want off, but I have to say in the situation I am in now kratom is helping me. I am taking care of my father on hospice. A refrigerator full of morphine that is not touched. As long as I take my kratom I have no cravings and have been ok . So it is helping me steer through these choppy waters and when I am on the other side I will take my advice and get 2 or 3 light doses of sub and work on it over a week or two. But that only works if a person is DEDICATED. I finally see that I am glad I stayed on so I don't beat myself up and it makes sense. If someone really wants off a month of dedication is doable. Other substances can take months to get off. Not really kratom from what I know and the people I talk too.

I say only a few doses because I have stopped kratom a few times. It is short. My wife came off over 10 years ago shoveling in over 50 grams a day. Went CT. First 4 days sort of rough. 2-3 weeks of lethargy and no energy and by 1 month claimed she as 100%. She exercised through it all. No PAWS, she was happy to be off and energized. I have done that too just not in some years. I also have a friend that went on suboxone full time and is stuck. Told me don't let it hook in me. 3 weeks is too much. So I told him my plan and he agrees. He gives me the warnings.

 

[Them Witches]

The press is saying 7-HMG is 14 fold stronger than morphine. I strongly disagree.

I am not saying the 7-HMG and PI + 7-HMG is weak, I saying it is not as strong as morphine and morphine has much better effects.

If someone had a daily 400mg morphine dependence, it would take more of the kratom extract mg per mg to achieve the same physical & Antinociceptive daily needs.

There no way I would trade morphine for 7-HMG or PI + 7-HMG.

 

[daturetard]

Does anyone else think a short term suboxone taper could help getting off kratom?

I’ve been on it for 8-9 years daily and I can’t do it. Maybe I’m a weak little shit, but I can’t.

EDIT: I’m gonna do it. A really cool dude on here is gonna help me with this process.

I just can’t get off of this stuff. It’s seemingly benign, but it can dig its claws in you.

Dude subs are gonna be the worse of two evils no matter how you look at it. Carcinogenic, more powerful, can actually kill you, synthetic, and more addictive than kratom.

 

[daturetard]

The press is saying 7-HMG is 14 fold stronger than morphine. I strongly disagree.

I am not saying the 7-HMG and PI + 7-HMG is weak, I saying it is not as strong as morphine and morphine has much better effects.

If someone had a daily 400mg morphine dependence, it would take more of the kratom extract mg per mg to achieve the same physical & Antinociceptive daily needs.

There no way I would trade morphine for 7-HMG or PI + 7-HMG.

These numbers are never gonna be accurate cause it's subjective and those numbers are based on bunding profiles and affinities, not a measurement of effective anti-nociception. Also the partial agonist nature of kratom makes it a much different 'high' with less anti nociception.

 

[Fresco]

Does anyone else think a short term suboxone taper could help getting off kratom?

I’ve been on it for 8-9 years daily and I can’t do it. Maybe I’m a weak little shit, but I can’t.

EDIT: I’m gonna do it. A really cool dude on here is gonna help me with this process.

I just can’t get off of this stuff. It’s seemingly benign, but it can dig its claws in you

Are you taking regular kratom powder daily, or are you taking the kratom extract??

 

[Fresco]

Dude subs are gonna be the worse of two evils no matter how you look at it. Carcinogenic, more powerful, can actually kill you, synthetic, and more addictive than kratom

Yup, taking suboxone for kratom WD is a REALLY bad idea!!

 

[bingey]

Kratom WD is a cake walk compared to done or even smack

 

[Fresco]

For those who are trying to taper off kratom, I hope you're doing it the right way.
You should only reduce 500mg every 2 days.
So for example, if you're taking 5 grams per dose your daily your regiment should look like this:

Day 1 = 5 grams
Day 2 - 5 grams
Day 3 = 4.5 grams
Day 4 = 4.5 grams
Day 5 = 4 grams
Day 6 = 4 grams
Day 7 = 3.5 grams
Day 8 = 3.5 grams
Etc....etc.

Work your way down to 0.5 grams per day, and from there you can go 250mg, 125mg, 75mg......etc all the way to zero.
If you dont have a milligram scale you can buy them for cheap on Amazon.

Doing it this way there shouldnt be any withdrawals

Good luck

 

[Fresco]

Kratom WD is a cake walk compared to done or even smack

While I agree with you, kratom WD hits a lot of people differently.
Whats easy for you might not be easy for others, especially the psychological part of it

 

[SuperPsych]

I have withdrawn from Morphine at doses of over 100mg per day. I did it cold turkey. It was horrible and the WD gave me shingles which is INSANELY painful.

I've tried to cold turkey kratom multiple times in dosages ranging from 15gpd-30gpd. Have never been able to successfully complete it. I have made it as far as 2 weeks into a kratom cold turkey and always break around that mark due to the horrible and deep depression and spikes of anxiety/panic.

Morphine WD was a bit more painful, but the mental aspect was a walk in the park compared to Kratom. Kratom is also insanely uncomfortable and at times painful to come off of physically, it's just that morphine was a bit more intense. Plus with Morphine WD I felt a lot better after 7 days. Kratom I find the physical WD to start improving around day 7 but last until 14 days in or so. 14 days into Kratom WD I find that the depression and anxiety get far worse than the first 14 days and lasts probably 3-4 more weeks after that.

If given the choice between going cold turkey off of Morphine or cold turkey off of Kratom, I'd probably choose morphine

 

[Fresco]

I have withdrawn from Morphine at doses of over 100mg per day. I did it cold turkey. It was horrible and the WD gave me shingles which is INSANELY painful.

I've tried to cold turkey kratom multiple times in dosages ranging from 15gpd-30gpd. Have never been able to successfully complete it. I have made it as far as 2 weeks into a kratom cold turkey and always break around that mark due to the horrible and deep depression and spikes of anxiety/panic.

Morphine WD was a bit more painful, but the mental aspect was a walk in the park compared to Kratom. Kratom is also insanely uncomfortable and at times painful to come off of physically, it's just that morphine was a bit more intense. Plus with Morphine WD I felt a lot better after 7 days. Kratom I find the physical WD to start improving around day 7 but last until 14 days in or so. 14 days into Kratom WD I find that the depression and anxiety get far worse than the first 14 days and lasts probably 3-4 more weeks after that.

If given the choice between going cold turkey off of Morphine or cold turkey off of Kratom, I'd probably choose morphine

Were you taking regular kratom powder or the kratom extract??

 

[JackARoe]

For those who are trying to taper off kratom, I hope you're doing it the right way.
You should only reduce 500mg every 2 days.
So for example, if you're taking 5 grams per dose your daily your regiment should look like this:

Day 1 = 5 grams
Day 2 - 5 grams
Day 3 = 4.5 grams
Day 4 = 4.5 grams
Day 5 = 4 grams
Day 6 = 4 grams
Day 7 = 3.5 grams
Day 8 = 3.5 grams
Etc....etc

Excellent advice. A slow taper could be painless. I have heard that. Imagine using the Ashton method for stopping kratom? Other than the psychological knowing you are lowering, physically you may not know.

I get no real restlessness with kratom wd. A little bit. Lethargy is my main issue. I can sleep with just cannabis in kratom wd. AGAIN that is plain leaf. Extracts are probably a heavier ball game. I have been lucky but I do space many hours sometimes between usage. Sometimes 24 hours. I had a friend that took it every 4 hours and was having issues. Spacing it can help initially so do that first.

And yes we are all different. So some solutions to one issue may be a solution to another issue for another person. If someone is suffering then they may be able to use advice meant for a different substance Maybe not the Ashton Manual for kratom though. (But I am sure it would work)

 

[Quasimoto]

It's quite bad, yes. Especially if you've been taking such high doses for a long time. It seems to alter brain chemisty in ways other opioids don't... it really fucks up your brain in bad ways. This mainly manifests as pretty extreme depression during and after withdrawal, as well as anxiety. The restlessness and agitation are also much worse than other opioids.

But the "sickness" and other physical withdrawal symptoms are not nearly as bad.

The half-life of pseudo indoxyl + 7-hydroxymitragynine & 7-hydroxymitragynine 7-39hrs. That makes gauging the entire length of the withdrawls.

The purported half lives don't correspond to the length of effect or withdrawal.

The withdrawal of both mit and 7oh/pseudo are relatively short. The acutes only last about 3-4 days, but the PAWS are just as long.

Does anyone else think a short term suboxone taper could help getting off kratom?

Kratom powder? No, in general I would advise against.

I recently switched to subs from kratom, but I was taking 10g powder, 300mg 7oh, and 50mg of pseudo, combined per day. It became wildly unmanageable. Let me tell you, the withdrawals from that were 100x worse than 50g per day of kratom. The withdrawals were so bad I actually felt psychosis coming on. 2mg of subs was not enough to cover the withdrawals, and I continued having heavy symptoms for 5 days.

But 2mg of subs would be too strong for kratom powder, you'd be upgrading your dependence.

Also, subs won't cover all of the withdrawals anyways. You will still experience a heavy depression.

In my experience kratom powder is quite easy to taper. It's relatively painless, but sucks nonetheless. Sucks much less if you use another drug as a crutch.

I've tapered from 50g to 5g very quickly... like over 2 weeks. No pain, just depression and lack of motivation. But that last 5g is trickier.

 

[BourbonMac]

It’s why I can’t get off the stuff. 8 years of daily dosing.

Think I’m gonna do an extremely short, 1-2 weeks sub taper to see if that helps me.

I know some people freak out about subs, but I don’t plan on staying on them. Just a couple
weeks of 1st or .5mg tapering.

I cannot taper kratom.

I'm coming up on 8 years. It's overstayed its welcome, but at the same time I still find it can be helpful for migraines or just a little mood boost. Though I at least control its use now. 6 years ago I'd take like 30gpd and I take roughly 9ish now, but that's still too high. I need to get that back down to like, 7ish. I'm low on cash and about to run out, so I guess I've probably been taking closer to 10gpd some nights

Now if I had to pick, this or weed, I'd pick weed in a heartbeat. So I guess that's technically more addictive, for me, while kratom has just become more ritualistic. When I was really addicted to it I'd take 10-15g at a time, even knowing it wouldn't do this, then I'd up it to 20 to maybe feel a tiny bit of something. I'd never go back to dosing like that.

But yeah the withdrawals truly are hell. People who've come off benzos or harder opioids tend to call people detoxing off kratom as being whiney, it's not that bad, you just feel a little sick for a few days. No. It's just as bad as any opioid pretty much. I'd only used it for 4ish months daily and had some of the most traumatic withdrawals ever. The way I felt like I was going to lose my mind at any moment was also not good... very strong depersonalization.

The good thing is, they don't last that long. Or at least they didn't that time; about 3 days and I was good again, but I still craved it. At that point I'd been taking about 15g a day, usually dosing 2-3 times a day. For you, cold turkeyed you'd maybe reach that point by 10 days, so taper, don't go to subs.

People who say the withdrawals are nothing are liars lol. You probably heard that at the Kratom subreddit. You're not even allowed to call the feeling a "high" or call Kratom a drug or you'll be banned. Any posts about anything negative on kratom, mods remove. They're gatekeeping the fact that there are actually things about this substance that aren't good. Sure it's not deadly like other opioids, but it's still not good for your liver, it's still addicting, and it can still get you just as high as oxys can.

Maybe that just isn't the case for some people, and that's why they're withdrawals are "nothing" but kratom has fucked me up just as much as a combo of oxys/diazepam. Kratom extracts like OPMS Gold or 7Ohm together fucked me up probably as bad as a small dose of heroin. Those things... stay away, everyone. Even if you can use it responsibly, some extracts are fakes, and I believe the only real deaths attributed to kratom were from extracts.

 

[Fresco]

Also, suboxone itself can become addictive to many people

 

[daturetard]

Yup, taking suboxone for kratom WD is a REALLY bad idea!!

Ye these medical professionals be putting people on bupe maintenance for life for using a comparatively harmless plant. When really they should be giving one time lomotil or motofen scripts!!! Like that would be the best treatment for these mfs. And clonidine and maybe pregabalin (but that last one might just be me fiending) Even viberzi, that shit would be better than bupe probably. And it's not a MAINTENANCE drug.

 

[SuperPsych]

Were you taking regular kratom powder or the kratom extract??

Regular kratom powder. I can count the amount of times that I've taken kratom extracts on one hand. Though I have used kratom for many years on and off, mostly on. Probably a long enough time for it to change my brain chemistry which probably plays a role in why I have such a difficult time getting off of it. I also get addicted to kratom very quickly after periods of abstinence.

 

[Quasimoto]

Ye these medical professionals be putting people on bupe maintenance for life for using a comparatively harmless plant. When really they should be giving one time lomotil or motofen scripts!!! Like that would be the best treatment for these mfs. And clonidine and maybe pregabalin (but that last one might just be me fiending) Even viberzi, that shit would be better than bupe probably. And it's not a MAINTENANCE drug.

Where are you deriving your opinion from? Why do you not consider bupe a maintenance drug? It is certainly that... in fact, its much more of a maintenance drug compared to methadone.

In my opinion and experience, bupe is a lot less harmful than a nasty kratom addiction. Just because it's a plant does not make it less harmful.

Why do you consider lomotil and motofen less harmful than bupe? That part really puzzles me.... those are both heavy opioids and and atropine has significant long term negative effects.

There is a serious lack of evidence of the safety of long term kratom use... yet you consider bupe a carcinogen and dangerous because it's synthetic? Kratom is extremely understudied and any one of it's 52 pharmacologically active chemicals could be carcinogenic.

I think you need to take a step back and gain some perspective or experience. Kratom has damaged my body, mind, and life far more than suboxone ever has. I have permanent liver damage, brain damage, and past psychosis thanks to kratom. Bupe has never done anything close to that to me. I have taken both bupe and kratom for 10+ years on their own. Kratom has caused more damage to my life.

Natural /=/ better...

also, most people I know who start bupe eventually get off it, not sure where "bupe for life" comes from.

 

[Fresco]

Where are you deriving your opinion from? Why do you not consider bupe a maintenance drug? It is certainly that... in fact, its much more of a maintenance drug compared to methadone.

In my opinion and experience, bupe is a lot less harmful than a nasty kratom addiction. Just because it's a plant does not make it less harmful.

Why do you consider lomotil and motofen less harmful than bupe? That part really puzzles me.... those are both heavy opioids and and atropine has significant long term negative effects.

There is a serious lack of evidence of the safety of long term kratom use... yet you consider bupe a carcinogen and dangerous because it's synthetic? Kratom is extremely understudied and any one of it's 52 pharmacologically active chemicals could be carcinogenic.

I think you need to take a step back and gain some perspective or experience. Kratom has damaged my body, mind, and life far more than suboxone ever has. I have permanent liver damage, brain damage, and past psychosis thanks to kratom. Bupe has never done anything close to that to me. I have taken both bupe and kratom for 10+ years on their own. Kratom has caused more damage to my life.

Natural /=/ better...

also, most people I know who start bupe eventually get off it, not sure where "bupe for life" comes from.

Katom damaged your liver?? Were you mixing it with alcohol??

I have never heard of anyone get serious liver injury from taking just kratom alone.

I also never heard of people getting brain damage or psychosis from taking kratom

 

[Fresco]

Regular kratom powder. I can count the amount of times that I've taken kratom extracts on one hand. Though I have used kratom for many years on and off, mostly on. Probably a long enough time for it to change my brain chemistry which probably plays a role in why I have such a difficult time getting off of it. I also get addicted to kratom very quickly after periods of abstinence.

That's good. Don't ever mess with kratom extracts.

The withdrawal symptoms from extracts are 10 times worse than regular kratom powder