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The Last Covid-19 Megathread v. Hopefully...

I see you’ve taken that propaganda hook line and sinker.

Purdue classified oxy as schedule 2 since the very start. Schedule 2 is defined as having a high risk of addiction

Purdue made it totally clear that oxy was every bit as addictive as morphine etc because it was classified as schedule 2 just like morphine.

Schedule 2 is schedule 2. You’re not gonna tell me that a doctor was tricked by some 22 year old pharma sales rep with zero medical training into thinking a schedule 2 drug existed that wasn’t addictive.

Sad to see the Netflix and Reddit propaganda has. Gotten to you
Purdue didn't classify oxy - oxy was scheduled in 1970 by Richard Nixon as Schedule 2 of the CSA:

In the United States, the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) was passed by the United States Congress and signed into law by President Richard Nixon on 27 October 1970. The passing of the CSA resulted in all products containing oxycodone being classified as a Schedule II controlled substance.
Purdue was very effective at targeting local physicians with sales information specifically designed to influence medical providers into seeing Oxycontin (slower release formulation of oxycodone) as less misusable than oxycodone IR formulations, and thus less misusable/dependence forming than morphine or heroin. Further, they were highly effective at targeting medical schools with reesearch suggesting the importance of pain management as "the fifth vital sign" (bp/pulse/respiration/body temperature being the classic vital signs). This was an effort to influence a generation of new prescribers into being more lax about prescribing oxycodone to patients.

Purdue was also very effective at hiring sales reps with no history of opioid sales (hadn't worked with MSContin or fentanyl before)) to push oxycontin. Why? Because they were less likely to pick up on signs of dependent patients in doctor's waiting rooms - something that might lead to sales reps asking questions or flagging possible problems beginning to occur which could reduce sales of the drug.

Your insinuation that I simply watched a netflix documentary and became an expert is laughable. I was a heroin addict whose watched his friends and family succumb to this stuff, and I got clean. After getting clean, I went back to school for multiple graduate degrees and have worked in medicine with opioid users (like myself) since 2010. I've trained specifically in addictions, attended conferences annually, and followed very closely the opioid lawsuits that recently came down against purdue and have resulted in billions in damages being returned local towns across the US (your town got money, what did they do with their Opioid Abatement funds?).

You know nothing about me.
 
Check the correlation between the industrial production and agricultural use of DDT, Lead Arsenate, etc, and the rise and fall of "polio".

The last three countries in the world with 'wild polio', Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria.. were all still either openly using DDT as a pesticide/insecticide or still had stocks being sold/used by farmers. The correlation is clear as fucking day. It was industrial poisoning; ingesting industrial chemicals primarily through contaminated food and water supply.

It's an edge case, because it shows a degree of state coverup in order to protect its mega industries (petro-chemical/agri-chemical) from litigation that would inevitably crush the entire industry and cause a lot of economic chaos. The same thing happened with BSE (Mad Cow), where they were applying 'phosmet' directly on to Cow stock to prevent insect infestation.. and phosmet is an organophosphate, which are nerve toxic chemicals. They were rubbing it directly on to the cows necks lmao. The state intervened again in order to protect its interests from litigation.. there never was a pathogen, same with polio.
Your rhetoric clouds how you choose to look at the information in front of you. This is how propaganda works. Self-reflection and openness to other ideas are what allows our minds to evolve into more advanced forms of intelligence. Maybe you'll argue that I lack critical thinking or am simply wrong, misguided, already lost, a different species, or some other way to code me as 'less than', and that's fine - I beg to differ.

I disagree with everything you've said about public health, just as I disagree with everything you say about the notion of law not being real. Just because a concept derives from human social consensus doesn't make it any less real than any other phenomenology of nature. We're all part of an interconnected web of life comprised of many layers of truths, memes, customs, norms, and agreements. The social contract is what has allowed humans to evolve from hunters and gathers into societies, and from bicameral consciousness into modern consciousness.
 
BTW DDT was introduced in 1939, not widely used until the 1940s so over two decades AFTER the first polio epidemic that was referred to as such. Now lead and antimony salts certainly are toxic, but they do leave pretty obvious evidence in anyone poisoned by them. Methodologies known at the time would easily spot them. No idea what the 'and so on...' refers to.
 
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BTW DDT was introduced in 1939, not widely used until the 1940s so over two decades before the first polio epidemic that was referred to as such. Now lead and antimony salts certainly are toxic, but they do leave pretty obvious evidence in anyone poisoned by them. Methodologies known at the time would easily spot them. No idea what the 'and so on...' refers to.
IIRC - wasn't Shulgin's research for Dow specifically looking into organic insecticides to replace DDT? If I recall correctly, it was his success in finding plant-based derivatives that would repel insects which offered him the freedom to explore tryptamines and phenethylamines.
 
Out of interest I checked when tetraethyl lead was first added to gasoline. 1921. It was originally offered as an octane-improving agent and we had a pretty good record of what happened to the workers who made the TEL without appropriate safety gear. It wasn't polio. But it does at least show that there were multiple causes for increased environmental lead. Lead water piping has been a source of lead poisoning for milenia.

Arsenic also had many household uses in that period from weedkiller to rat poison - in fact it was a popular if not the most popular toxin used to poison people for a couple of decades. But again, my point is that there were many paths for those compounds to enter the environment, and usefully, chronic heavy metal poisoning will show up in hair samples even post mortem so we do have data on that.

But then to assert that an organochorine produced exactly the same toxic signs? We DO know that organochlorine compounds can be toxic but the symptoms are totally different to heavy metal poisoning and neither present in a manner that is in any way similar to polio. I will conclude bt noting that given the lack of safety demonstrated by the production of TEL, one would expect to see those involved in the manufacture of the chemicals to be identifiable - given that occuational safety was nigh on zero until the 1960s. Yet we see no examples of this. I am the first to point out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but even among those who used the agrochemicals we see no corrolation with polio.
 
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Out of interest I checked when tetraethyl lead was first added to gasoline. 1921. It was originally offered as an octane-improving agent and we had a pretty good record of what happened to the workers who made the TEL without appropriate safety gear. It wasn't polio. But it does at least show that there were multiple causes for increased environmental lead.

Arsenic also had many household uses in that period from weedkiller to rat poison - in fact it was a popular if not the most popular toxin used to poison people for a couple of decades. But again, my point is that there were many paths for those compounds to enter the environment,
This was also a time before widespread public health measures resulted in water testing and moves away from local wells to municipal water testing and treatment. Seepage from any number of sources could infect local aquifers and result in toxic effects on large numbers of the population. The movie "a civil action" is based on a book written about a case near me growing up where a number of children developed leukemia in the mid 1980s due to groundwater contaminated with TCE and PCE (not the arcyclohexamines) by a laundry service operated under a large conglomerate which was illegally dumping cleaning chemicals.
 
BTW DDT was introduced in 1939, not widely used until the 1940s so over two decades AFTER the first polio epidemic that was referred to as such.
DDT was the main culprit from that time, yes. It's a matter of convenience than laying out everything in a throwaway comment; that's why I said it is an edge case, and a cheap way to summarise is just 'industrial poisoning'. There were other industrial chemicals implicated, such as arsenates. The mechanism is the same though, ingestion and then permeating the spinal nerves in that area causing paralysis.

When you look at the last wild polio locations and the fact they all still used DDT, either for agriculture or for malaria control. Like come on.. it's pretty self-evident what is going on.
Your rhetoric clouds how you choose to look at the information in front of you. This is how propaganda works. Self-reflection and openness to other ideas are what allows our minds to evolve into more advanced forms of intelligence. Maybe you'll argue that I lack critical thinking or am simply wrong, misguided, already lost, a different species, or some other way to code me as 'less than', and that's fine - I beg to differ.
You have it all backwards. You are the one who is happy for the state to forcibly violate the bodily sovereignty of an individual against their will, so don't talk to me about clouded judgement and propaganda.

And to talk about evolution of intelligence, self-reflection, openness, when you do not even respect another person at the most fundamental level shows a stunning lack of self-awareness.
 
You appear to have conveniently missed the first of my three posts.

The one with the index reference.
 
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You are the one who is happy for the state to forcibly violate the bodily sovereignty of an individual against their will

this would be just a little easier to believe if it wasn't coming from somebody who wants to reduce women's bodily sovereignty by making abortions more difficult to obtain...

just sayin'

alasdair
 
this would be just a little easier to believe if it wasn't coming from somebody who wants to reduce women's bodily sovereignty by making abortions more difficult to obtain...
Huh? Shall I assume here that you've gone on an archaeological dig through my posts to find something tangentially relevant? I mean it wouldn't be the first time you've done that.

Regardless, if you must bring abortion into this. There is a massive difference between forcibly violating someone's bodily sovereignty with a needle and pumping shit into them, than removing access to pharmaceutical products that kill an unborn human. One is a direct violation, the other is not. You can slap the word 'reduce' in front of it but that does not add any extra weight to the actual reality of the situation.
 
There is a lot of evidence suggesting that polio was known in ancient Egypt and it appears the symptoms have been described by doctors long before the use of agrochemicals. But without the methodology to conclusivly identify a causitive agent, that was the most they could do. Describe the symptoms. I freely state that indivdual case studies are considered low-quality evidence but there is quite a lot of it going back a long, long time, milenia in fact and from many places geographically.
A 'lot of evidence' is stretching the truth, just a tiny bit.. You're talking about a time period over 2000 years ago and some interpretation of history, because that's what it is.. no one we know was actually there, let alone able to do any diagnostics or anything.

Trying to include this as evidence just shows desperation of the paradigm, clasping at anything they can find that they feel lends weight to their hypothesis regardless of how loose it is. It's certainly not 'a lot' of evidence, which shows in turn how desperate you are to believe in it.
Given that polio is a virus, it required improved instrumentation until in 1953 it was directly observed using electon microscapy.
I'm not going to do this one again, I've given my thoughts on it before. In short, electron microscopy is not revealing what you think it is revealing. It is static, grainy/fuzzy, chemically prepared, out of situ photography, that is trying to reveal an incredibly complicated scale and biological realm. It is misinterpretation, an error of science due to error of scale. The same exact thing has happened with cosmology and the use of telescopes, misinterpreting a scale we can not physically interact with with any degree of accuracy.
 
I assered that case studies are low quality evidence but over the milenia, the same set of symptoms were recorded in detail by medical professionals. Without an understanding of the caustive agency, that is the best we can hope for. Seems like you chose to ignore my specificly noting it WAS low quality evidence - but evidence nonetheless.

I noted that indirect methods evovled BEFORE the electron microscope was able to directly visualize the virus, I certainly didn't use it to assert that polio was a transmissle disease. Only that it WAS and IS a virus. How you divine my usage of the information is entirely subjective to YOU, not I.

But you have signularly failed to address the fact that in studies it was proven that polio was and is a transmissable disease.

After all, that is the important bit which is why I provided reference.

Animals kept in strict laboratory conditions thus not subject to environmental poisons can reliably be infected with the polio virus. Sort of hard to get around that basic fact.
 
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Shall I assume here that you've gone on an archaeological dig through my posts to find something tangentially relevant? I mean it wouldn't be the first time you've done that.

no, after more than 20 years, i just have a very good memory for the shit people post on here. i remembered it because it wasn't just about abortions. it was about rolling back equality in general.

it's odd that you're annoyed when people find or remind you of things you've said. i didn't insult you. i didn't misrepresent you. i just reminded you of your own words.

don't get mad at the person holding up the mirror.


There is a massive difference

sure.

tl;dr "i don't have a problem with my attack on bodily autonomy. i only have a problem with your attack on bodily autonomy."

alasdair
 
no, after more than 20 years, i just have a very good memory for the shit people post on here. i remembered it because it wasn't just about abortions. it was about rolling back equality in general.

it's odd that you're annoyed when people find or remind you of things you've said. i didn't insult you. i didn't misrepresent you. i just reminded you of your own words.

don't get mad at the person holding up the mirror.
What words? This is ridiculous, you can't just level an accusatory post at me without actually quoting what I said. How am I supposed to respond to an accusation if you can't even show me what I said? I may have said something in the past but I sure as hell can't remember it.. abortion isn't a topic I really care about or seek out to discuss, so maybe I made 1 post on it, I have no idea.

I wasn't annoyed until you posted the quote above, because now it does just look like you are attempting to shit stir. If I were anyone of significance I could accuse you of libel, because you have made a defamatory accusation without a shred of proof I even said anything.

Show me what I said, or shut the hell up and leave me alone.
 
Purdue didn't classify oxy - oxy was scheduled in 1970 by Richard Nixon as Schedule 2 of the CSA:
ok so it was classified as being highly addictive decades before its clinical use.

And Purdue didn’t object to that classification nor try to get it moved to a lesser schedule because all the science showed it was highly addictive and thus fit the definition of schedule 2


The drug had a big red C|| label on it since its first use. C|| means highly addictive.

There was no label on the bottle saying it wasn’t addictive - only a label on the bottle saying it was highly addictive.

You ain’t explaining that away no matter what you say
 
Show me what I said, or shut the hell up and leave me alone.

lol. calm down. you have access to the same search feature to which i have access...

from the thread: what is your ideal manifesto?

"Actively work to restore and promote families, make abortion more difficult to obtain, stop and reverse equality in regards to the sexes, reincentivise the male importance in society, work against feminism and other socially liberal trends that have utterly fucked over this society in the past 100 years." (my emphasis)

alasdair
 
lol. calm down. you have access to the same search feature to which i have access...
YOU made the accusation, why the hell should I do work on your behalf. You really are something.
"Actively work to restore and promote families, make abortion more difficult to obtain, stop and reverse equality in regards to the sexes, reincentivise the male importance in society, work against feminism and other socially liberal trends that have utterly fucked over this society in the past 100 years." (my emphasis)
This has absolutely no relevance to the context of forcibly violating bodily sovereignty what so ever, you are just trying to derail the the conversation because you don't like what I've said. This is all you have ever done on this forum, shit stir in an attempt to derail and fill up the thread with your nonsense in the hopes that you'll bury the actual point under discussion.

1. Abortion is far too accessible and has resulted in a warped psychology with a lot of women who never have to face the consequences of their actions. Divorce is the other big one.
2. There is no such thing as equality between the sexes, we are not equal and are different - this is not saying there is a justification for treating one poorly, which you will no doubt assume is implied.

You removed all the posts from the Trump thread into this one, and now you come here and try to detail this thread onto the subject of abortion. Why don't you just stay in your lane and contribute something of actual value to the Trump thread, instead of attempting to shit stir yet again.

Putting pharmaceuticals in a harder to reach place is NOT the same as forcibly injecting someone against their will. Not even close. And this doesn't even touch the point about the bodily sovereignty of the unborn human a women potentially wants to kill either.
 
you seem mad that i reminded you of something you said. no need for the personal comments.

you raised the issue of bodily autonomy. abortion is, in very large part, a discussion about bodily autonomy so my post was on topic.

if you disagree, i'll agree to disagree.

alasdair
 
Amazing what a little dose of power can do, eh? You're supposed to be held to higher standards than regular users. Yet you come in here and try to derail the conversation to fucking abortion, by shit stirring up one post I made over 7 fucking years ago. As if that is some earth shattering truth that I'm a nazi or something, without even bothering to extend the courtesy of asking me to maybe elaborate further. No.. you'll just try and frame it in your way, try a dash of character assassination. Pathetic doesn't quite capture it.

OK, fine. You want to talk about fucking abortion and bodily sovereignty? You tell me how making the killing of an unborn child more difficult is impinging on the bodily autonomy of the mother and not the actual entity being killed.

I stand by what I said. Your attempt to cherry-pick out one post from 7 years past and slap it onto a tangential topic as proof that I don't care about bodily autonomy is utterly pathetic. And that is not even taking into account the fact that making abortion more difficult is not the same as forcibly violating a person with a needle. The fact you'd even try and conflate the two, and think that shit will actually stick lmao.
 
ok so it was classified as being highly addictive decades before its clinical use.

And Purdue didn’t object to that classification nor try to get it moved to a lesser schedule because all the science showed it was highly addictive and thus fit the definition of schedule 2
Their argument was that the slow release formulation of oxycontin was less addictive than instant release oxycodone and injectable morphine products. They used favorable data and cherry picked studies which supported this marketing strategy. Further, they failed to indicate how easily very high doses of oxycodone could be liberated from time release formulations resulting in much higher doses of pure oxycodone HCL than say a oxycodone w/APAP 5/325 which was much more difficult to misuse (CWE was the primary way to alter it for concentrated doses w/o paracetamol which was fairly esoteric knowledge to the general pre-internet american). While the appropriate use of oxycontin (as prescribed, by mouth) is less compulsive than taking an equipotent dose of instant release oxycodone by mouth, and certainly less compulsive than taking it by more direct ROAs such as sublingual, nasal, or IV, it was incredibly easy to liberate from the time-release.

The marketing reps were trained to indicate that this was why it was okay to use oxycodone (formerly reserved for the management of severe pain related to things like post-operative analgesia, cancer, and other types of highly painful ailments) in the OC formulation in a much less restrictive way. Even as their reps began to notice that physicians were prescribing to many patients, and noticed that waiting rooms began to demonstrate the obvious signs of addiction with increasing frequency, those who chose to flag this to their managers at Purdue were placated, silenced, or transferred off of oxycontin. It wasn't until state and federal attorneys were contacted by former reps that this information began to go public at the end of the 90s.

The abatement settlements were not finalized until the early 2020s - nearly 2 decades later.

By targeting medical students, funding med schools, providing physicians with a very lucrative revenue stream in addition to added corporate perks, purdue was able to change the profession's belief that oxycodone's schedule II status was as severe as it should have been seen. I would also remind you that many providers routinely prescribe other schedule II drugs like methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, and were familiar with the relatively moderately effective MS-Contin which had been much less widely misused owing to morphine's poor efficacy as an oral drug.

Did you know that the Sackler's first blockbuster drug was Valium (diazepam) in the early 1960s? That their next big drug was MS-Contin? They were acutely aware of the profits that could come from the most addictive drugs that were available for to prescribe. Since they stayed on the legal side of the federal register, they could follow the playbook of the cartels while avoiding legal consequences.
The drug had a big red C|| label on it since its first use. C|| means highly addictive.

There was no label on the bottle saying it wasn’t addictive - only a label on the bottle saying it was highly addictive.
On which bottle?

The package insert contained a black box warning which patients may or may not have looked at, and even if they did, contained instructions for how to make the drug more easily misused.

Further, corporate-owned pharmacies such as CVS, Walgreens, and Rite-Aid were also found liable for not doing enough to educate pharmacy patients about the risks of misuse and dependence, and failed to identify and prevent risks for diversion, misuse, or overprescribing among clients and prescribing providers. These lawsuits were settled in the late 2010s and have resulted in much stricter labelling on pharmacy bottles containing drugs like Oxycontin, as well as stricter protocols are patient monitoring, early refills, and using multiple prescribers. It was during the 2010s that the prescription monitoring program (PMP) came into widespread use, where pharmacies and prescribers were required to check a multistate database for the history of a patient's controlled substance prescriptions, and these checks must occur before prescribing by the provider, and before dispensing at the pharmacy.

Prior to PMP roll out, it was very easy to get multiple prescriptions filled for the same or similar drugs by using multiple prescribers, multiple pharmacies, and paying out of pocket, as insurance was one of the few checks that might pick up on therapeutic duplications.

I used to do this very thing back every month back in 2007 - I'd fill clonazepam, Ambien CR, suboxone, and Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) at CVS using my insurance, while I'd go to walgreens to fill lorazepam, generic zolpidem, and generic methylphenidate across the street. For nearly a year I was double dipping by using my buprenorphine doc to prescribe meds that my psychiatrist had been prescribing as well, and simply telling the bupe doc that she was who I saw for all of these medications. I never once got caught.
 
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