The Last Covid-19 Megathread v. Hopefully...

[LucidSDreamr]

Man it’s wild how angry people still are about the fact that Trump ( or scientists ) invented a vaccine to try and attenuate the spread of COVID.

Not just this thread, but if you go into the comments of Fox News, any story, they are people still 5 years later RABIDLY ranting about the Covid vaccine and executing Fauci (Fauci didn’t even invent the Covid vaccine but he happened to make faces that implied Trump was a complete moron and that absolutely broke people to see a doctor look down on trump being a moron ( they absolutely hate doctors in the first place because they have an big intellectual inferiority complex surrounding them).

People in America absolutely hate doctors and scientists. They are an insult to their religion and an insult to their own self esteem. This is a huge problem we have in America.

Americans scientific illiteracy doesn’t equip them to understand that scienctific consensus can change with the emergence of new data. This isn’t the Bible where one thing is written down and beleieved for the rest of eternity despite mounting evidence against it. But they expect science to work that way also, since they are incapable of digesting the new data and seeing why it makes sense and why the previous data made sense before having said new data.

We have a major disconnect between intellectuals and the uneducated, combined with a lack of humility on the uneducated’s part where they are incapable of acknowledging that someone knows more than them about medicine.

We are doomed

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Sound approach - science is skeptical and always re-evaluating the available data in the face of current threats, acute risks vs. chronic risks, emergent risks etc. It reminds me of how folks who started on HIV meds in the 90s started to run into health problems in the 2010s....they'd survived HIV because of medications that were ultimately hard on their bodies, so they started to run into kidney, liver, cardiovascular issues as they get older. When you've got a chance to live with the potential for later health impacts or risk dying horribly in the next few years, it makes sense to chose a path that has some down the road consequences.

He was very clear that Covid was certainly harder on your heart than the vaccine even might be. I've been fully vaxxed until this last winter. I got busy and didn't.
This winter? I dunno. Covid is way less virulent now. But people are still getting long Covid. I would like data as to if the milder cases are still hard on your heart. A possibility of 1x heart damage to ensure I don't get 10x heart damage would tip the scale to a booster for sure. The possibility of long Covid might do so on it's own.

 

[tryptakid]

No, it's not different. Your health is your health, it has nothing to do with me. If you get sick and die that's on you for having a shit immune system and not taking care of yourself. This is precisely why the medical paradigm is so dangerous, because it has actually convinced you that your health is partially someone else's responsibility and therefore has opened the door for your selfish justification to force another person to bend to your will.

You've allowed perverse authorities to instil an irrational fear of death in you, to convince you of something you have not proven (contagion), and then use that as justification for interfering with the liberty of others. If I had known this about you I would never have bothered dialoguing with you from the beginning, because it's people like you with that mind state, that place abstract nonsense above the value of your fellow human beings that have been the driving force behind all the horrors in our collective history.

I'm sorry you feel that way - truly. I have learned a lot from you and it saddens me to know that you'd write off my perspective because I do believe in public health. I have studied it and I have practiced it as part of my social work practice (I have masters degrees in both social work and in public health - I may pursue a doctoral degree in public health at some point if thing align.

I don't think that coercive measures should be the standard, and I believe that a good public includes education about the benefits of things like nutrition, exercise, vaccination, and primary care. I've worked in health centers and hospitals my whole life and I've seen the good that comes from this approach. I know that you have mentioned that the NHS system has been unhelpful and even damaging at times - I can't speak to knowing anything of that perspective.

I also know that there are way sin which people can be harmed by public health, and how trauma that impacts a person through caregiving is possibly the worst of all traumas. It's why I hold myself and others to high ethical standards and I don't blink when I see unethical practice occuring. Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of unethical practitioners during the time I've been a human, a patient, and a clinician. I've done my part to ensure that they are disciplined and prevented from harming further.

Please don't group me in as some mindless zealot trying to push things upon you - I'm trying to understand your perspective while also hoping you're open to hearing from mine. That's what a dialogue is, isn't it? You and I have been through a lot on here and I'd hate to see our friendship change because of a misunderstanding over this. I think highly of you and your wisdom. It's shaped how I think about many things I face in my work outside of bluelight.

 

[tryptakid]

Man it’s wild how angry people still are about the fact that Trump ( or scientists ) invented a vaccine to try and attenuate the spread of COVID.

Not just this thread, but if you go into the comments of Fox News, any story, they are people still 5 years later RABIDLY ranting about the Covid vaccine and executing Fauci (Fauci didn’t even invent the Covid vaccine but he happened to make faces that implied Trump was a complete moron and that absolutely broke people to see a doctor look down on trump being a moron ( they absolutely hate doctors in the first place because they have an big intellectual inferiority complex surrounding them).

People in America absolutely hate doctors and scientists. They are an insult to their religion and an insult to their own self esteem. This is a huge problem we have in America.

Parts of America for sure - in the area I'm in it isn't the case - but travel down through areas devestated by purdue's criminal opioid pushing and you'll see a much different opinion of doctors.... pill pushers. Deservedly so.

Much of our troubled times stem from the mistrust of medicine related to big pharma

Americans scientific illiteracy doesn’t equip them to understand that scienctific consensus can change with the emergence of new data. This isn’t the Bible where one thing is written down and beleieved for the rest of eternity despite mounting evidence against it. But they expect science to work that way also, since they are incapable of digesting the new data and seeing why it makes sense and why the previous data made sense before having said new data.

We have a major disconnect between intellectuals and the uneducated, combined with a lack of humility on the uneducated’s part where they are incapable of acknowledging that someone knows more than them about medicine.

We are doomed

Maybe, but I don't give up that easy and you shouldn't either. There is hope.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm sorry you feel that way - truly. I have learned a lot from you and it saddens me to know that you'd write off my perspective because I do believe in public health.

There is no such thing as 'public health'. An individuals physical health ends at the surface of their skin, and this is yet another example of where language has been bastardized to push a propaganda line. There is no collective health, only a collection of individuals with their own individual health. This is one example of how the fucking slimy establishment has wormed its way in, by trying to conflate the boundaries and responsibilities by appealing to the human group feeling. It's sickening.

Please don't group me in as some mindless zealot trying to push things upon you - I'm trying to understand your perspective while also hoping you're open to hearing from mine. That's what a dialogue is, isn't it? You and I have been through a lot on here and I'd hate to see our friendship change because of a misunderstanding over this. I think highly of you and your wisdom. It's shaped how I think about many things I face in my work outside of bluelight.

You say this in the same breath as you talk about ethics. I'm sorry but you can not claim any position on ethics when you are prepared to see violated the most basic moral position of all which is bodily sovereignty. And not even by you personally, you are willing to have the state machinery do that for you. That is cowardice on top of a morally repugnant position.

This is irreconcilable. There is no politeness to be had at this point. If you are willing to have another person violated to avert your own fear of death then there is zero room for friendship or kinship as human beings, for we are a species apart.

 

[tryptakid]

There is no such thing as 'public health'. An individuals physical health ends at the surface of their skin, and this is yet another example of where language has been bastardized to push a propaganda line. There is no collective health, only a collection of individuals with their own individual health. This is one example of how the fucking slimy establishment has wormed its way in, by trying to conflate the boundaries and responsibilities by appealing to the human group feeling. It's sickening.

You say this in the same breath as you talk about ethics. I'm sorry but you can not claim any position on ethics when you are prepared to see violated the most basic moral position of all which is bodily sovereignty. And not even by you personally, you are willing to have the state machinery do that for you. That is cowardice on top of a morally repugnant position.

This is irreconcilable. There is no politeness to be had at this point. If you are willing to have another person violated to avert your own fear of death then there is zero room for friendship or kinship as human beings, for we are a species apart.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

There is no such thing as 'public health'. An individuals physical health ends at the surface of their skin,

Do you think food companies or restaurants should be able to serve poison / rotten food and it’s just up to the individual whether or not to risk consuming it and their bad if they do?

I know this is a separate topic from vaccines but to say public health doesn’t exist is a stretch

 

[LucidSDreamr]

but travel down through areas devestated by purdue's criminal opioid pushing and you'll see a much different opinion of doctors.... pill pushers. Deservedly

I see you’ve taken that propaganda hook line and sinker.

Purdue classified oxy as schedule 2 since the very start. Schedule 2 is defined as having a high risk of addiction

Purdue made it totally clear that oxy was every bit as addictive as morphine etc because it was classified as schedule 2 just like morphine.

Schedule 2 is schedule 2. You’re not gonna tell me that a doctor was tricked by some 22 year old pharma sales rep with zero medical training into thinking a schedule 2 drug existed that wasn’t addictive.

Sad to see the Netflix and Reddit propaganda has. Gotten to you

 

[Fire&Water]

Blinded by statism

 

[-=SS=-]

Do you think food companies or restaurants should be able to serve poison / rotten food and it’s just up to the individual whether or not to risk consuming it and their bad if they do?

I know this is a separate topic from vaccines but to say public health doesn’t exist is a stretch

What is this crap? You can't just throw out a hyperbolic question that bears absolutely no relation to the context we were just in.

The way 'public health' is used in relation to say a pandemic is markedly different to the way it is used in your example. For starters you're talking about a business serving customers, whereas a pandemic you're talking about a natural event involving people generally. The former is a choice and situation involving a business to people, the latter is about individual people making a decision about their own health. One has a legal obligation not to poison potential customers, the other only has an obligation to themselves.

 

[sHR00m]

Man it’s wild how angry people still are about the fact that Trump ( or scientists ) invented a vaccine to try and attenuate the spread of COVID.

He did that all while writing inflammatory posts about the vaccine and other COVID related measures. Trump was part of the problem. And later on, when it didn't matter much anymore he let himself get vaccinated.

Purdue made it totally clear that oxy was every bit as addictive as morphine etc because it was classified as schedule 2 just like morphine.

Idk why you are defending Purdue but they marketed a schedule 2 narcotic as being only addictive to one percent of patients.

"In much of its promotional campaign—in literature and audiotapes for physicians, brochures and videotapes for patients, and its “Partners Against Pain” Web site—Purdue claimed that the risk of addiction from OxyContin was extremely small."

Purdue trained its sales representatives to carry the message that the risk of addiction was “less than one percent.”"

What I find interesting about this paper, it's from 2009.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Idk why you are defending Purdue but they marketed a schedule 2 narcotic as being only addictive to one percent of patients.

Sorry the drug was medically defined by the DEA FDA and CDC to be schedule 2.

Are you saying that a doctor should listen to a sales rep with an MBA and no medical background regarding drugs rather than the doctors at the DEA and the FDA?

Sales reps with MBAs pitches don’t override government agency classifications made by government doctors.

The drug was classified to be highly addictive by virtue of being put into a literal classification that defines it as such

It was also known that rats self administered oxycodone as much as heroin before the drug was ever put into a human.

I know it’s trendy to hate big pharma but the science and this classification of oxycodone was clear as daylight to anyone with a shred of medical or scientific literacy

From:

Loading…

www.dea.gov

Schedule II drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a high potential for abuse, with use potentially leading to severe psychological or physical dependence

 

[LucidSDreamr]

The way 'public health' is used in relation to say a pandemic is markedly different to the way it is used in your example.

Ok so public health does exist beyond vaccines. Thanks for confirming.

 

[sHR00m]

Sorry the drug was medically defined by the DEA FDA and CDC to be schedule 2.

Are you saying that a doctor should listen to a sales rep with an MBA and no medical background regarding drugs rather than the doctors at the DEA and the FDA?

Sales reps with MBAs pitches don’t override government agency classifications made by government doctors.

The drug was classified to be highly addictive by virtue of being put into a literal classification that defines it as such

It was also known that rats self administered oxycodone as much as heroin before the drug was ever put into a human.

I know it’s trendy to hate big pharma but the science and this classification of oxycodone was clear as daylight to anyone with a shred of medical or scientific literacy

From:

Loading…

www.dea.gov

Schedule II drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a high potential for abuse, with use potentially leading to severe psychological or physical dependence

The whole point of the scandal was that Purdue systematically altered the perception of (certain) Schedule II drugs, it's dangers and it's addiction potential since the mid 90s. We know that because of the sealed documents Purdue had to hand over. I'm not even denying that the FDA played a role but the way I see it Purdue gamed the corrupted system to gain an edge in sales and marketing.

 

[-=SS=-]

Ok so public health does exist beyond vaccines. Thanks for confirming.

'Public health' does not exist, full stop. There is no 'public body', there are a bunch of individual bodies that make up a collective we call the public. And more than that, every one of those individual bodies is different.. it has different physiology, different allergies, different blood type, etc, etc.. you can't treat the whole of society as one body.

It's a deliberate misuse of language. Which as we saw during Covid, was used by political forces to insert ideas and generate support within society for advancing this notion that you owe others an obligation in terms of their health e.g. young people who were at 0 risk should be taking a pharmaceutical product in order to supposedly protect elderly people - note that elderly people weren't asked or polled whether they even wanted that sacrifice on their behalf, it was implied and forced by the state itself. It was used to advance the concept of 'vaccine passports', which became a tangible reality in Israel and many other countries were going to implement it too, many talking heads encouraged that divisive attitude of 'the refuseniks'.. they actually used that term in the media, knowing full well its relation to Soviet Russia and Jews. It was also being used to advanced towards the idea of forced vaccination - we had it, underhandedly, with 'mandatory vaccination' i.e. take it or lose your job (and potentially be economically screwed).

Look, your restaurant example was ridiculous. Come on. If you're serving food as a business then you do have an obligation not to poison people and the state has a roll in ensuring that there is a degree of regulation, in order to stop shysters from setting up shop and selling dog meat made from peoples pets or whatever. In the example of the pandemic, the only obligation is with the individual themselves.. because health, as we've just ascertained above is an individual thing and the individuals responsibility, it is their decision to make whether they take something or not.. health is a private matter.

Should a person be able to buy dodgy food from a restaurant if they really want to? Sure, why not. If they're that stupid, knock yourself out [of the gene pool]. But only on the condition that the restaurant advertises the product as that, as "this meat might be dog, and we may have left it out of the freezer for a week in the Sun". You did not imply that within your question though did you, which is why it was ridiculous and disingenuous.

Health used to be a private matter, as it should be. It is no ones business unless you opt to tell others yourself, and doctors are bound by confidentiality. The state has absolutely no business, none what so ever, in jamming its nose into your private affairs.

As I said to @tryptakid I do not care what the pretext is or how positively you feel about your own scientific paradigm or whatever, there is zero justification for transgressing that boundary. We're supposed to be in service to each other, not to some abstraction called society. If the state actually cared about potential 'public health' emergencies, it would give every citizen access to free vitamin supplements all the time.. as just one example of something it could easily do.

 

[sHR00m]

'Public health' does not exist, full stop. There is no 'public body', there are a bunch of individual bodies that make up a collective we call the public. And more than that, every one of those individual bodies is different.. it has different physiology, different allergies, different blood type, etc, etc.. you can't treat the whole of society as one body.

It's a deliberate misuse of language. Which as we saw during Covid, was used by political forces to insert ideas and generate support within society for advancing this notion that you owe others an obligation in terms of their health e.g. young people who were at 0 risk should be taking a pharmaceutical product in order to supposedly protect elderly people - note that elderly people weren't asked or polled whether they even wanted that sacrifice on their behalf, it was implied and forced by the state itself. It was used to advance the concept of 'vaccine passports', which became a tangible reality in Israel and many other countries were going to implement it too, many talking heads encouraged that divisive attitude of 'the refuseniks'.. they actually used that term in the media, knowing full well its relation to Soviet Russia and Jews. It was also being used to advanced towards the idea of forced vaccination - we had it, underhandedly, with 'mandatory vaccination' i.e. take it or lose your job (and potentially be economically screwed).

Look, your restaurant example was ridiculous. Come on. If you're serving food as a business then you do have an obligation not to poison people and the state has a roll in ensuring that there is a degree of regulation, in order to stop shysters from setting up shop and selling dog meat made from peoples pets or whatever. In the example of the pandemic, the only obligation is with the individual themselves.. because health, as we've just ascertained above is an individual thing and the individuals responsibility, it is their decision to make whether they take something or not.. health is a private matter.

Should a person be able to buy dodgy food from a restaurant if they really want to? Sure, why not. If they're that stupid, knock yourself out [of the gene pool]. But only on the condition that the restaurant advertises the product as that, as "this meat might be dog, and we may have left it out of the freezer for a week in the Sun". You did not imply that within your question though did you, which is why it was ridiculous and disingenuous.

Health used to be a private matter, as it should be. It is no ones business unless you opt to tell others yourself, and doctors are bound by confidentiality. The state has absolutely no business, none what so ever, in jamming its nose into your private affairs.

As I said to @tryptakid I do not care what the pretext is or how positively you feel about your own scientific paradigm or whatever, there is zero justification for transgressing that boundary. We're supposed to be in service to each other, not to some abstraction called society. If the state actually cared about potential 'public health' emergencies, it would give every citizen access to free vitamin supplements all the time.. as just one example of something it could easily do.

I'm sorry. Maybe health is a private matter in the US but in the rest of the world vaccines work pretty well for the most part as part of public health campaigns. We nearly eradicated small pocks, polio, measles, etc.

The problem I see with various COVID vaccines is that the pharmaceutical industry can't be trusted to safely deliver an experimental mRNA vaccine and doing so in record time. We already have an example of that with AstraZeneca. It needed to be retracted in several countries because of the high numbers of deaths associated with it. Also the pharmaceutical industry has been selling drugs during pandemics before that were not only ineffective but also had more unstated side effects they knew of. Such as tamiflu.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm sorry. Maybe health is a private matter in the US but in the rest of the world vaccines work pretty well for the most part as part of public health campaigns. We nearly eradicated small pocks, polio, measles, etc.

No we didn't. Polio is an edge case that relates to industrial poisoning and needs a separate discussion, but with smallpox and measles (which are some sort of natural occurrence) if you check the official recorded statistics it clearly shows that these diseases (and others) were all on rapid decline before vaccination was even introduced. In the case of measles the mortality rate had dropped to virtually zero before its vaccine was introduced. In every case vaccination was introduced right at the tail end of the disease and then given credit for something it didn't do.

These diseases were trending to zero (in the West) because of improved food quality and diversity, improved water quality, improved sanitation, improved working rights and living conditions.. the epidemics and pandemics of the 17-20th centuries were caused by the opposite of all that, by living incredibly deprived and toxic lifestyles. When we remedied that situation they all began to evaporate, which actually shows that individual health is the key to not getting ill in the first place and not vaccination.

 

[sHR00m]

To my knowledge polio got pretty much eradicated in no-time once the vaccines were rolled out.

 

[-=SS=-]

To my knowledge polio got pretty much eradicated in no-time once the vaccines were rolled out.

Check the correlation between the industrial production and agricultural use of DDT, Lead Arsenate, etc, and the rise and fall of "polio".

The last three countries in the world with 'wild polio', Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria.. were all still either openly using DDT as a pesticide/insecticide or still had stocks being sold/used by farmers. The correlation is clear as fucking day. It was industrial poisoning; ingesting industrial chemicals primarily through contaminated food and water supply.

It's an edge case, because it shows a degree of state coverup in order to protect its mega industries (petro-chemical/agri-chemical) from litigation that would inevitably crush the entire industry and cause a lot of economic chaos. The same thing happened with BSE (Mad Cow), where they were applying 'phosmet' directly on to Cow stock to prevent insect infestation.. and phosmet is an organophosphate, which are nerve toxic chemicals. They were rubbing it directly on to the cows necks lmao. The state intervened again in order to protect its interests from litigation.. there never was a pathogen, same with polio.

 

[4DQSAR]

I belive it was physicians Karl Landsteiner and Erwin Popper demonstrated that polio was caused by an infectious agent in 1908. So by definition nobody could be diagnosed as suffering from Polio until that point.

It's like claiming that Pluto didn't exist before it's discovery in 1930...

Well the two researchers took advantage of the terrible lack of controls on animal testing to infect monkeys with cerebrospinal fluid taken from persons who had developed polio. They even employed a seive fine enough to stop bacteria to assert that the causitive agent was something much smaller that a bacterium. But the fact they could reliably infect animal models does rather lend itself to the conclusion that the vector was communicable and not environmental.

Their original paper:

"Übertragung der Poliomyelitis acuta auf Affen" [Transmission of Poliomyelitis acuta to monkeys]. Zeitschrift für Immunitätsforschung und experimentelle Therapie [Journal for Research on Immunity and Experimental Therapy] (in German). 2 (4): 377–390

There is a lot of evidence suggesting that polio was known in ancient Egypt and it appears the symptoms have been described by doctors long before the use of agrochemicals. But without the methodology to conclusivly identify a causitive agent, that was the most they could do. Describe the symptoms. I freely state that indivdual case studies are considered low-quality evidence but there is quite a lot of it going back a long, long time, milenia in fact and from many places geographically.

Given that polio is a virus, it required improved instrumentation until in 1953 it was directly observed using electon microscapy. I understand that the antibodies produced by polio had already been identified so indirect identification existed before that date.

Several other viral diseases were identfied at around the same period. Yellow Fever springs to mind but there were several. Again, it's not as if doctors didn't note symptoms, they just didn't have the appropriate tools to firmly identify the caustive agent. That doesn't mean yellow fever didn't exist long before it's identification.

Apophenia is an extreme case of conformation bias. Any supporting evidence is accepted uncritically, and contrary evidence is either a lie or part of yet another VAST conspiracy.