Benzodiazepine rebound anxiety

[Okiv99]

Is benzodiazepine rebound anxiety incredibly hit and miss or just purely psychological ( in a persons head). Having been through periods of heavy use and experienced withdrawal I know it can be hell but now it seems I can use for one or two days and feel no rebound anxiety/I’ll effects after. On the other hand I’ve read of people who take one Xanax and get rebound anxiety the next day.

 

[paltatomate]

i can take benzos (clonazepam currently) for a week or even two, i can go up to 5mg/day during those long periods, but i always taper down.
and i don't take it for psychological anxiety or panic attacks.

there has been times when i got anxious, with some psychological and physiological symptoms of anxiety like sweaty hands, heart rate goes up, problems swallowing, tendency to hyperventilate, chest pain, feeling like something very bad is going to happen.
but i know that;s just my body & mind adapting, and i can ignore them pretty well by getting busy.
they never last more than a few hours, a day at most.

i think what might make a difference if you are anxious person to begin with, and if the reason you took the benzos was anxiety.

 

[Jnowhere]

How long did you use, and is long term use, only use 3x 10mg of Valium, (diazepam) was on another stronger one Ativan( lorazepam) 2mg x 3 times a day for 6+ years. The Valium 1 1/2 year, it is half by weight what the Ativan was, do you know how long to taper and get off, of it? No, psychological addiction at all, I forget to take them at times.

Is a fast as in a few months possible and easy or this gonna be 1+ year to get of, off when ready? I only use it too keep me relaxed because of prescribed lower dose of oxycodone, and might want of it then the valium. Opiods make we very awake and insomnia, and that is the reason.

My doctor didn't put me on benzos, but I am scared that he may retire at some point and would possibly like to preempt any issues, because of America's war on legitimate pain patients. And tried cold turkey off morphine and the equivalent of 60mg of diazepam the 6mg of Ativan =60mg of diazepam( Valium). No psychological addiction just worried about physical. Anyways trying both almost killed me I thought. Lol
Just didn't need them, anymore but still scared of long term use and withdraw.

 

[Jnowhere]

i can take benzos (clonazepam currently) for a week or even two, i can go up to 5mg/day during those long periods, but i always taper down.
and i don't take it for psychological anxiety or panic attacks.

there has been times when i got anxious, with some psychological and physiological symptoms of anxiety like sweaty hands, heart rate goes up, problems swallowing, tendency to hyperventilate, chest pain, feeling like something very bad is going to happen.
but i know that;s just my body & mind adapting, and i can ignore them pretty well by getting busy.
they never last more than a few hours, a day at most.

i think what might make a difference if you are anxious person to begin with, and if the reason you took the benzos was anxiety.

Yeah, what if no psychological addiction, dammit lecroute, you beat to asking the question. Also I am very OCD about meds but they don't help much, as I would like, and just interested, in case. No abuse of or any attachment. Valium is weak.

 

[paltatomate]

@Jnowhere
what do you take valium for?
and it's no problem if you have a schedule of two doses per day and then you forget to take one, because it stays in your body for a longer time.
then also consider your history, and what all the stuff you ingested might have done to your brain and body.
what happens if you don't take your valium for like three days?

 

[Jnowhere]

I don't, I only ever miss one dose occasionally, never had any real withdrawals from Valium or oxycodone, probably because I need them for pain and not recreationally, plus same dose, usually and at the usual times, mostly.
Valium is to keep me calm and relaxed because of pain killers. Make me hyper. This was a bigger issue when I was on MS Contin or MS er, all day 2x but they should last 12vhours but don't and with oxycodone, I needed benzos to calm me and help sleep. I didn't ask the ER doctor but they helped also got a very nice weeks supply of 20mg x 3 times a day of oxycodone with the 2mg of Ativan 3 times a day, and other stuff but he hooked me up, for a week.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Concerning Benzo s, i am a Ostrich. just assume never crossed the line.
Head in the sand atm, being once through Ethanol WD.
i know how that feels. A good warning how bad addiction can get.

Benzo s lets say my low does and as sporadic as possible use ' hopefully' work.
As i wanna get off them both totally, without hurt.

Still don t get the anxious/ anxiety Benzo relation. Normally i am not.
Lets say i get anxious; dentist, something irritating or going somewhere.
Taking a benzo would sedate me, but i ll experience the same sedated.
Might even reside too nrg -drinks or my dextro-Amphetamine.
To reverse the sedation.

Never had rebound, nut i d worry bout habituation an d addiction.

Once took to much, that worked.
Wonder how i got home though, tracked my way back via travel history.
Random memory s and use of ATM s, but i was dumb.
Naive and ttook a 15-fold dose.

 

[Okiv99]

i can take benzos (clonazepam currently) for a week or even two, i can go up to 5mg/day during those long periods, but i always taper down.
and i don't take it for psychological anxiety or panic attacks.

there has been times when i got anxious, with some psychological and physiological symptoms of anxiety like sweaty hands, heart rate goes up, problems swallowing, tendency to hyperventilate, chest pain, feeling like something very bad is going to happen.
but i know that;s just my body & mind adapting, and i can ignore them pretty well by getting busy.
they never last more than a few hours, a day at most.

i think what might make a difference if you are anxious person to begin with, and if the reason you took the benzos was anxiety.

So would the best case scenario for an occasional users say 1-2 max 3 times a week spread apart be to use a short acting benzo like xanax to avoid rebound or having to taper? I have been using diazepam atm just occasionally and I know that diazepam has a long half life but its duration of effects feels really short like xanax at no more than 5-6 hours or so max.

Ive been fine so far over the last 2 weeks with this sporadic use but I guess part of me is paranoid that even with days between use I still have a little bit of the xanax or diazepam in my system a day or two later that is preventing rebound anxiety and at some point it will hit me hard.

 

[Jnowhere]

Concerning Benzo s, i am a Ostrich. just assume never crossed the line.
Head in the sand atm, being once through Ethanol WD.
i know how that feels. A good warning how bad addiction can get.

Benzo s lets say my low does and as sporadic as possible use ' hopefully' work.
As i wanna get off them both totally, without hurt.

Still don t get the anxious/ anxiety Benzo relation. Normally i am not.
Lets say i get anxious; dentist, something irritating or going somewhere.
Taking a benzo would sedate me, but i ll experience the same sedated.
Might even reside too nrg -drinks or my dextro-Amphetamine.
To reverse the sedation.

Never had rebound, nut i d worry bout habituation an d addiction.

Once took to much, that worked.
Wonder how i got home though, tracked my way back via travel history.
Random memory s and use of ATM s, but i was dumb.
Naive and ttook a 15-fold dose.

Alcohol withdrawal was something I went through easily 100-200 times 5 days usually, but as you get older, they are worse and DT's are horrible when you have nothing to help, like benzos and opiods. More the benzos, it get's scary when you can't keep water down and go upto 5 days without food.

 

[negrogesic]

The answer is, it's a function of time exposed to benzos, and the doses involved.

I used benzos at massive doses for years, and went through two full on withdrawal syndromes. The benzo addictions were punctuated by around 6 years of non-use. After my second instance of full on benzo withdrawal, somewhere around 2012, I never really felt like I fully recovered. Maybe 96%, but I never felt the same, with permanently higher anxiety levels. It's as if the withdrawal didn't completely end.

Even a decade later, in say 2022, a single good sized dose of etizolam of alprazolam was followed by a 4-5 day period of rebound anxiety and insomnia. I remember in 2018 I used strong doses of etizolam daily (maybe 5-10mg per day) for 5 days. The rebound was so severe that I was a shell of myself. My girlfriend would be normal TV shows we would watch, like the Sopranos or etc, and I was so anxious that I could only cartoons like King of the Hill because anything slightly disturbing would freak me out. Severe anxiety, insomnia, I stopped talking etc (I'm usually very jovial and talkative). Horrifying dreams resembling horror films. I had a dream some entity was flying after me in a dark house and I woke myself up because I was yelling "help! help!" over and over again.

I abused benzos at high doses doses for years, which causes epigenetic changes to GABA-A receptors. Essentially, when GABA-A receptors are exposed to long-term and high doses of benzodiazepines, the body tries to balance things out by decreasing the sensitivity of GABA-A receptors. When this happens in the long-term, the epigenetic changes are so profound that they can become permanent, resulting in permanently less sensitive GABA-A receptors.

Benzodiazepines are actually more likely to induce epigenetic changes than alcohol because of the extreme specificity that benzodiazepines have for the GABA-A receptor, binding with high potency on a specific little pocket of the GABA-A complex (between the alpha and gamma subunits). Overuse leads to not only short-term receptor downregulation and altered subunit composition, but long-term damage (via increased DNA methylation, which can suppress the expression of the GABA-A subunits to which benzodiazepines -- and other things -- bind, and histone modifications, which basically causes the DNA to become more tightly packed and less accessible for transcription).

In more basic terms, they fuck up your GABA-A receptors, reducing their function. If you push it hard enough, like i did, you will cause potentially irreversible damage. This essentially leaves you in a perpetual state of mild benzo withdrawal, like me.

Maybe in the future there will be some gene therapy to help repair this.

Morale of the story, the more you fuck with benzos, they more they fuck with you. They are neurotoxic when used for prolonged periods of time. But they are life saver when used very occasionally. But if you use the life saver too many times, you start to pay an increasingly heavy price.

 

[Okiv99]

The answer is, it's a function of time exposed to benzos, and the doses involved.

I used benzos at massive doses for years, and went through two full on withdrawal syndromes. The benzo addictions were punctuated by around 6 years of non-use. After my second instance of full on benzo withdrawal, somewhere around 2012, I never really felt like I fully recovered. Maybe 96%, but I never felt the same, with permanently higher anxiety levels. It's as if the withdrawal didn't completely end.

Even a decade later, in say 2022, a single good sized dose of etizolam of alprazolam was followed by a 4-5 day period of rebound anxiety and insomnia. I remember in 2018 I used strong doses of etizolam daily (maybe 5-10mg per day) for 5 days. The rebound was so severe that I was a shell of myself. My girlfriend would be normal TV shows we would watch, like the Sopranos or etc, and I was so anxious that I could only cartoons like King of the Hill because anything slightly disturbing would freak me out. Severe anxiety, insomnia, I stopped talking etc (I'm usually very jovial and talkative). Horrifying dreams resembling horror films. I had a dream some entity was flying after me in a dark house and I woke myself up because I was yelling "help! help!" over and over again.

I abused benzos at high doses doses for years, which causes epigenetic changes to GABA-A receptors. Essentially, when GABA-A receptors are exposed to long-term and high doses of benzodiazepines, the body tries to balance things out by decreasing the sensitivity of GABA-A receptors. When this happens in the long-term, the epigenetic changes are so profound that they can become permanent, resulting in permanently less sensitive GABA-A receptors.

Benzodiazepines are actually more likely to induce epigenetic changes than alcohol because of the extreme specificity that benzodiazepines have for the GABA-A receptor, binding with high potency on a specific little pocket of the GABA-A complex (between the alpha and gamma subunits). Overuse leads to not only short-term receptor downregulation and altered subunit composition, but long-term damage (via increased DNA methylation, which can suppress the expression of the GABA-A subunits to which benzodiazepines -- and other things -- bind, and histone modifications, which basically causes the DNA to become more tightly packed and less accessible for transcription).

In more basic terms, they fuck up your GABA-A receptors, reducing their function. If you push it hard enough, like i did, you will cause potentially irreversible damage. This essentially leaves you in a perpetual state of mild benzo withdrawal, like me.

Maybe in the future there will be some gene therapy to help repair this.

Morale of the story, the more you fuck with benzos, they more they fuck with you. They are neurotoxic when used for prolonged periods of time. But they are life saver when used very occasionally. But if you use the life saver too many times, you start to pay an increasingly heavy price.

Oh nice you seem to know allot about this. I had one phase with heavy use (2-3 months or so and using maybe twice a week in extremely high amounts as I was totally ignorant about benzos at the time) that ended in a panic attack so bad it put me in er. The only time ive had a seizure though was from alcohol abuse is this likely why im fine atm?
My excessive use at the time was mainly due to ignorance and I don't feel the need to compulsively redose like I do with opiates (even weaker opiates kratom) and can have them in my cupboard and feel no need to touch them.

So would you think I would be okay using a short acting benzo like xanax maybe 2 max 3 times a week at a low dose? I am in a rut after my kratom addiction and have developed almost a minor agoraphobia and using them just when I am doing things I haven't done for a while for the first time helps me break that cycle and I am finding then I can do the same thing without them (it just helps me get over the initial fear the first time).

Sorry for the huge post would really appreciate it if you could get back to me on whether you think this could be a viable strategy.

 

[Jnowhere]

So would the best case scenario for an occasional users say 1-2 max 3 times a week spread apart be to use a short acting benzo like xanax to avoid rebound or having to taper? I have been using diazepam atm just occasionally and I know that diazepam has a long half life but its duration of effects feels really short like xanax at no more than 5-6 hours or so max.

Ive been fine so far over the last 2 weeks with this sporadic use but I guess part of me is paranoid that even with days between use I still have a little bit of the xanax or diazepam in my system a day or two later that is preventing rebound anxiety and at some point it will hit me hard.

The real issue begin when you take them several times a day every day for more than 2-3 weeks with most benzos, Xanax not sure, it is a good idea to use cautiously, so is taking breaks.

When your brain and body becomes use to having say, Xanax continously, then it begins to work with that expectation and not an occasional exception.( I am trying to just make it easy, no I don't think you stupid) and when your brain operates without it then the problems arise. Similar to recreational opiod use.
Real pain and that withdrawal are not same with people who are horrifically injured; even then you need to taper, but not like someone who is fine but enjoys getting high of oxycodone all the time.

This is unfortunately true of SSRI's and many other antidepressants. The changes they make to the brain may take weeks to really work. However with a lot or most you can't just stop. Or withdrawals. The medical establishment likes to try calling it discontinuation syndrome. That is medical bullshit speak for withdrawals.
They try that same bs with anti-psycohtics.

Basically you don't want your brain altered long enough that it begins to operate with the expectation of these drugs to be there. Because when that happens, you then get mental and physical withdraw if they are not. Then the issue of tolerance; and the higher the continuous dose and the longer, then the worse it is to stop aka the severity of withdraws.

Discontinuation syndrome, they don't use that term for people, physically addicted to opiods, benzos or booze, ect...

I know, if I was a defense lawyer and I referred to a knife or a gun, used as a murder weapon as: A pulse discontinuation device.lol

 

[negrogesic]

So would you think I would be okay using a short acting benzo like xanax maybe 2 max 3 times a week at a low dose? I am in a rut after my kratom addiction and have developed almost a minor agoraphobia and using them just when I am doing things I haven't done for a while for the first time helps me break that cycle and I am finding then I can do the same thing without them (it just helps me get over the initial fear the first time).

No, would not recommend this strategy. Benzos sneak up on you, and often people don't realize that they are experiencing rebounds. 3x a week, or any regular dosing periods is a idea. Should be limited to emergencies.

The medical establishment has slowly been becoming aware of the issues associated with daily benzo use (the UK figured it out sooner). I'm not for drug prohibition, but benzos aren't a good long term solution for anxiety. I mean, if you're dying of cancer, fuck it, take them daily if you want.

The problem is, benzos work so goddamn well, and no medication comes even close to the anxiety relief provided by a good dose of xanax. But if you take them regularly, you'll pay a price.

Are you saying you quit kratom recently, or are you saying you have a kratom addiction and it's causing you agoraphobia? Because those are two very different things.

If you've quit kratom, and are struggling, physical exercise is the most powerful non-drug tool to get you feeling better. I know everyone hates that answer because it's like "yeah right, and eat your vegetables too", but it actually works well. Daily exercise was crucial in getting me off of 380mg/day of methadone, which is usually considered a "lifer" dose.

 

[Okiv99]

No, would not recommend this strategy. Benzos sneak up on you, and often people don't realize that they are experiencing rebounds. 3x a week, or any regular dosing periods is a idea. Should be limited to emergencies.

The medical establishment has slowly been becoming aware of the issues associated with daily benzo use (the UK figured it out sooner). I'm not for drug prohibition, but benzos aren't a good long term solution for anxiety. I mean, if you're dying of cancer, fuck it, take them daily if you want.

The problem is, benzos work so goddamn well, and no medication comes even close to the anxiety relief provided by a good dose of xanax. But if you take them regularly, you'll pay a price.

Are you saying you quit kratom recently, or are you saying you have a kratom addiction and it's causing you agoraphobia? Because those are two very different things.

If you've quit kratom, and are struggling, physical exercise is the most powerful non-drug tool to get you feeling better. I know everyone hates that answer because it's like "yeah right, and eat your vegetables too", but it actually works well. Daily exercise was crucial in getting me off of 380mg/day of methadone, which is usually considered a "lifer" dose.

I quit kratom now but I developed my heavy use of it because I was unemployed and bored which is what lead to my use escalating and then I started to socially isolate myself more and more. I have a prescription for propranolol so I've been trying that as well and yeah exercise helps me feel better. I guess I'm in my late 20s and wanted to get my life on track as quick as possible and thought 1-2x benzo use a week just to overcome the harder parts would help me do that but I guess its not a great idea. Thx for the advice.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

The problem is, benzos work so goddamn well, and no medication comes even close to the anxiety relief provided by a good dose of xanax. But if you take them regularly, you'll pay a price.

Thats why i wonder why Clobazam, which can be prescribed.
But in reality is unavailable due to shortages.
Or Pyrazolam, a RC, are not more used they do what is intended,
but seem less pronounced and reinforcing.
Btw take these 24/ 7 and they wil also cost a fair share.
They are not non-addictive !

Good to read high doses are more dangerous then lower infrequent ones.
Bit how it goes with me. Btw skipped DT, as already stressed out and insomniac went straight to a seizure. Before WD could set in.

But when i was physical dependent on Alcohol, 2 times till now.
Took me 3 weeks to get back to 'such a perfect day',
why its called a monster. By some.

 

[Jnowhere]

Never had a seizure even though physical wd's 100-200 times. Weird because my deceased little sister was epileptic and had them many times, seeing one is scary.

As I got older, the wd's got really really awful and easily triggered.
Usually 5 days before I could eat, and at times couldn't really move much or hold down water or anything.

Alcohol is the real gateway drug, from what I have seen. Lowered inhibitions and all the parties where people have other, 'intoxicating' substances.

 

[kiely]

Never had a seizure even though physical wd's 100-200 times. Weird because my deceased little sister was epileptic and had them many times, seeing one is scary.

As I got older, the wd's got really really awful and easily triggered.
Usually 5 days before I could eat, and at times couldn't really move much or hold down water or anything.

Do you think that I will give myself much added anxiety if I drink redbull with Xanax, in your professional opinion do you think ??

I have been at it a lot lately too ! What would you say ? and thnx

 

[50shadesofDave]

I'll join in on this thread, i'm on 30mg maintenance dose of diazepam at the moment after nearly four years daily use, i am scripted DHC Continus 90mg x 2 per day, i don't use other drugs or alcohol at all.

My benzo habit (awakening) came last March when i received zene laced 10mg Diazepam batch, which for the previous years had been spot on. My dhc script has been for ages due to a motorcycle accident rupturing the ACL/PCL plus other soft tissue damage to my legs, ruptured Achilles etc, i was on these before benzos, although i had used benzos occasionally in the 90's after raves etc, i've always struggled with sleep and benzos just like magic sorted me out, i think the dhc did make sleep more difficult though.

Now when i received the dodgy pills i was still very naive about the price i have to pay to stop diazepam.
I had a few strips of good one's and after searching the web i found this site, although i think i'd seen it prior but forgot about it, anyway i broke what pills i did have into halves and quarters, i had to drop to 5-7.5mg per day and even with that in my system i was losing it, night terrors, heavy sweating, paranoia and severe agoraphobia, after my last quarter i was C/T and awake for seven days, all the listed symptoms intensified to the point of suicide, i bought disposable bbq's and was going to light them and use carbon monoxide as my way out.

My plug sent me decent amounts of samples of everything he had, pregabs, prodes that were chalky bromaz, badly pressed ksalol alprazolam, this lot just about got me through to a point where i could re-stock diaz enough to re instate at 30mg, although re instating wasn't easy as it felt more like 60-80mg and i truly was all over the place, another poster on here told me about his 'hump' theory regarding re instating which turned out to be right.

Fast forward to now and i'm determined to start my taper off this year, i have worked everyday since late October until 24th December to pay some debt off and amass two months of supply, so i have around a month to find full time employment and start a VERY gradual taper, i tried a 5mg drop but my days went to shit at a newish job, so i'm going to take it very slow.

Today, and for the next week i'm resting as my body feels absolutely battered given no days off work.

I did read a thread where a poster stated they managed to get over years of benzo abuse with the help of carbamazepine but i didn't get a reply as to how they did it.

I need to get some Clonidine and other bits that will help, but i am not expecting an easy ride of this, infact i'm desperate for professional help but there is none available on the NHS.

I'll be happy if it takes two years to drop 20mg but i'm 100% determined to end this situation, next week when i start looking for work i will be starting a diary of do's and don'ts from learnt experience.

I wish all posters the very best in beating this shitty drug, and i would urge anyone using benzos daily to address the issue NOW, or at least formulate an exit plan.

Feel free to msg if you want to rant, or anything really, i just wish you well as this is no game.

Take care of yourselves, love 50's. x

 

[Jnowhere]

Do you think that I will give myself much added anxiety if I drink redbull with Xanax, in your professional opinion do you think ??

I have been at it a lot lately too ! What would you say ? and thnx

I would think redbull would cancel some of the calming effects of Xanax. But I never had red bull, and avoid energy drinks because of my fear of caffeine after I used to drink several pots of coffee a day for a while and ran out and that is a headache, I will new forget, it was as bad as the worst migraines, and I somehow did a caffeine taper. Sad I know.

I am only familiar with two benzos, Ativan and Valium, if my sister were alive she might know she took tons of benzos because they were the last resort and only thing for epilepsy and she loved caffeine and energy drinks but Ativan( lorazepam) for some reason is used by hospitals and always prescribed even though it short acting and the 2mg ones, which are common are equal to 20mg of Valium.
Hmm, Xanax is different and I really don't know. But, it might counteract it some, but I never really drank red bull, to know what it feels like vs a benzo and it.
It might counteract it some, how much, I don't know. Sorry Kiely

 

[Okiv99]

Do you think that I will give myself much added anxiety if I drink redbull with Xanax, in your professional opinion do you think ??

I have been at it a lot lately too ! What would you say ? and thnx

Lol redbull or any high caffeine drink shouldnt calm benzos effect unless u drink enormous amounts of it. I had to drink strong black coffee(2 tabelspoons or ) when I was using benzos more and for sure it stimulates u but will not stop the sedative effect of the benzos