Hey again! I feel bad, as I feel like I’ve made you go on the defensive with my reply and that wasn’t my intention at all. I seriously was inquiring about your opinions and how you formed them. I try my best to keep an open mind in all things.
I’m glad you agree about that article. I really wasn’t impressed by it at all. It struck me as bordering on propaganda. Propaganda for what or for whom, I’m not sure.
One thing I can definitely say is this: I read what you said originally and read the article and I instantly felt like there was no way that number is even close to accurate. I don’t believe for a second that most or even a significant number of addicts recover on their own.
I know people debate the “disease model” thing to death. I frankly don’t care. What difference does it make? I don’t like the idea of addicts claiming their problems are entirely out of their control. I feel referring to addiction as a disease allows people to make more excuses for themselves.
We are giving you respect regarding your own opinions man. Do the same for us so we can continue the conversation. We’re all reasonable people here.
You and I, for instance, have totally different views regarding the 12-step system. I have never understood why people act like the program is “Christian” or “Church-Based/Bible-Based”. I really think this is a complete misconception.
Sometimes I really feel like my experiences with psychedelics has given me a totally different view on life, death and religion than people who haven’t had those experiences. It’s like I can tell who is on my wavelength and who is not.
In the 12-Steps, they describe having a relationship with a “higher power”. This can literally be anything. It could be God, Jesus, belief in the healing power of love, belief that good will ultimately conquer evil… it can be so many different things and the reading says so very explicitly.
For myself, my higher power is the Universe. That could mean God, sure. Perhaps my concept of the universe is similar to another person’s idea of a caretaker God. My belief is that the universe is a gigantic, infinitely complex math problem or a clock with millions of gears. My belief in this way is that everything will always happen as it should, that my thoughts, words, feelings and actions reverberate through time and space. I put good things into this universe, honesty, kindness, love and that all adds to this beautiful equation.
I know for fact that it is not a “Christian” program, as I’ve done the program and still do. I’m Jewish. There are Jews, Christians, Muslims a Buddhist and a Wiccan Priestess between the two meetings I go to. The only time you are going to hear someone preach about Christ is going to be a random person doing so based on their own personal beliefs, and that’s fine, but the program is not Christian.
Being that our culture is derived from European culture, it is practically impossible to remove all traces of the Christian church from any place in our society. I know plenty of people who refer to themselves as “Christian” who are in fact, not at all religious. It’s just a nice thing to say, perhaps implying that you’re honest or morally upright.
I’m only writing all of this because I feel this sort of misinterpretation of the 12-Steps leads many people to not give the program an honest chance. This is bad, as 12-step meetings are essentially the most effective, most accessible form of treatment available to people.
12-Step programs are free. They are wholly operated by volunteers whose motivation comes entirely within themselves to help a fellow addict. See, they’ve been to hell and then they were able to see the light again. This transformation makes a person so grateful, they feel it is their obligation to help the next addict. Helping addicts keeps me sober.
12-Step meetings are available 24/7/365. There will be a meeting on Christmas Morning following a severe blizzard. There will be meetings taking place during the apocalypse. You can go online or in person.
I believe a professional therapist is what 150-200/hr? Maybe less, I’m not sure. An AA meeting is fucking free. I could get 5 hours of therapy today or even every day of my life, for free. I can hire a person to be my recovery concierge, checking on me, picking me up to bring me to meetings, calling to give me advice and support… for free. This “recovery concierge” will be with you until you quit or one of you dies.
I think the 30-90 day rehabilitation program model is nothing more than a racket. When people go to these places and end up clean, it seems to be more a matter of coincidence than some secret, magical thing that they do in the programs.
I don’t know if the 12-steps are perfect, but they’re the only place I’ve ever seen people consistently get better, permanently. They say in the book that the people who fail are the ones who do not commit to the program. I believe that this is essentially true. You can’t say it does or does not work until you actually do the program the way it is supposed to be done.
12-steps are the best thing we have in terms of psychological help for substance addiction. You get more out of 1 free hour of AA then you’ll get out of 30,000 bucks and 30 days in malibu riding horses and chilling in the sauna or whatever.
I can only speak personally. I never, ever would have made it to where I am now without the 12-steps and the people there that helped me. I am very sensitive about people miscategorizing it as I feel this keeps people from actually trying it.
I respect everyone’s views and I’m always open to discussing them as long as we can keep it friendly
I’m glad you agree about that article. I really wasn’t impressed by it at all. It struck me as bordering on propaganda. Propaganda for what or for whom, I’m not sure.
One thing I can definitely say is this: I read what you said originally and read the article and I instantly felt like there was no way that number is even close to accurate. I don’t believe for a second that most or even a significant number of addicts recover on their own.
I know people debate the “disease model” thing to death. I frankly don’t care. What difference does it make? I don’t like the idea of addicts claiming their problems are entirely out of their control. I feel referring to addiction as a disease allows people to make more excuses for themselves.
We are giving you respect regarding your own opinions man. Do the same for us so we can continue the conversation. We’re all reasonable people here.
You and I, for instance, have totally different views regarding the 12-step system. I have never understood why people act like the program is “Christian” or “Church-Based/Bible-Based”. I really think this is a complete misconception.
Sometimes I really feel like my experiences with psychedelics has given me a totally different view on life, death and religion than people who haven’t had those experiences. It’s like I can tell who is on my wavelength and who is not.
In the 12-Steps, they describe having a relationship with a “higher power”. This can literally be anything. It could be God, Jesus, belief in the healing power of love, belief that good will ultimately conquer evil… it can be so many different things and the reading says so very explicitly.
For myself, my higher power is the Universe. That could mean God, sure. Perhaps my concept of the universe is similar to another person’s idea of a caretaker God. My belief is that the universe is a gigantic, infinitely complex math problem or a clock with millions of gears. My belief in this way is that everything will always happen as it should, that my thoughts, words, feelings and actions reverberate through time and space. I put good things into this universe, honesty, kindness, love and that all adds to this beautiful equation.
I know for fact that it is not a “Christian” program, as I’ve done the program and still do. I’m Jewish. There are Jews, Christians, Muslims a Buddhist and a Wiccan Priestess between the two meetings I go to. The only time you are going to hear someone preach about Christ is going to be a random person doing so based on their own personal beliefs, and that’s fine, but the program is not Christian.
Being that our culture is derived from European culture, it is practically impossible to remove all traces of the Christian church from any place in our society. I know plenty of people who refer to themselves as “Christian” who are in fact, not at all religious. It’s just a nice thing to say, perhaps implying that you’re honest or morally upright.
I’m only writing all of this because I feel this sort of misinterpretation of the 12-Steps leads many people to not give the program an honest chance. This is bad, as 12-step meetings are essentially the most effective, most accessible form of treatment available to people.
12-Step programs are free. They are wholly operated by volunteers whose motivation comes entirely within themselves to help a fellow addict. See, they’ve been to hell and then they were able to see the light again. This transformation makes a person so grateful, they feel it is their obligation to help the next addict. Helping addicts keeps me sober.
12-Step meetings are available 24/7/365. There will be a meeting on Christmas Morning following a severe blizzard. There will be meetings taking place during the apocalypse. You can go online or in person.
I believe a professional therapist is what 150-200/hr? Maybe less, I’m not sure. An AA meeting is fucking free. I could get 5 hours of therapy today or even every day of my life, for free. I can hire a person to be my recovery concierge, checking on me, picking me up to bring me to meetings, calling to give me advice and support… for free. This “recovery concierge” will be with you until you quit or one of you dies.
I think the 30-90 day rehabilitation program model is nothing more than a racket. When people go to these places and end up clean, it seems to be more a matter of coincidence than some secret, magical thing that they do in the programs.
I don’t know if the 12-steps are perfect, but they’re the only place I’ve ever seen people consistently get better, permanently. They say in the book that the people who fail are the ones who do not commit to the program. I believe that this is essentially true. You can’t say it does or does not work until you actually do the program the way it is supposed to be done.
12-steps are the best thing we have in terms of psychological help for substance addiction. You get more out of 1 free hour of AA then you’ll get out of 30,000 bucks and 30 days in malibu riding horses and chilling in the sauna or whatever.
I can only speak personally. I never, ever would have made it to where I am now without the 12-steps and the people there that helped me. I am very sensitive about people miscategorizing it as I feel this keeps people from actually trying it.
I respect everyone’s views and I’m always open to discussing them as long as we can keep it friendly
