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Palestine discussion

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Mjäll said:
What do YOU gain from sympathizing with Israel?
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What does anyone gain from taking any kind of moral stance about anything? Guess it depends on how much of a nihilist you are, right? I personally don't overthink it. I pursue knowledge and perspectives on issues I'm interested in. In that pursuit, I form an opinion, as best I can. Based on the morals and values I've developed over the course of my life. The value I get in doing that is primarily internal satisfaction that I have taken the time to objectively analyze my thoughts and arrive at a conclusion. And having the humility to adapt my opinion as I gain more knowledge. This is basically one of the central tenants of how you navigate life in general, imo.
 
mal3volent said:
What does anyone gain from taking any kind of moral stance about anything? Guess it depends on how much of a nihilist you are, right? I personally don't overthink it. I pursue knowledge and perspectives on issues I'm interested in. In that pursuit, I form an opinion, as best I can. Based on the morals and values I've developed over the course of my life. The value I get in doing that is primarily internal satisfaction that I have taken the time to objectively analyze my thoughts and arrive at a conclusion. And having the humility to adapt my opinion as I gain more knowledge. This is basically one of the central tenants of how you navigate life in general, imo.
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Have you pursued knowledge and perspectives on both of the camps in this issue from an outside perspective? Or could you have been a bit biased in favor of Israel? Just as some others seem to have been biased in favor of Palestine or Hamas. Surely you must know this. Aren't you concerned that you may have missed some wisdom by putting yourself in one of the stupid religious hateful boxes?

Not taking sides doesn't mean nihilism. That is a lazy take.

What you deem to be overthinking may be precisely the thinking you need. Why would it be overthinking rather than new thinking or different thinking?
 
Mjäll said:
Have you pursued knowledge and perspectives on both of the camps in this issue from an outside perspective? Or could you have been a bit biased in favor of Israel?
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Well, I'm a liberal non-Jewish atheist so no I have no biases in favor of Israel. I have consumed a ton of pro Palestinian and pro Hamas media so yes I've pursued knowledge from their perspective. I participated in a 250 page thread on the issue here, as well. Where I was relentlessly exposed to other points of view.

Mjäll said:
Aren't you concerned that you may have missed some wisdom by putting yourself in one of the stupid religious hateful boxes?
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Again, not religious or hateful. I feel like I've been exposed to more information and more perspectives on this issue than most people here.

Mjäll said:
Not taking sides doesn't mean nihilism. That is a lazy take.
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I never said it did. Reread what I said and try to understand the point I was making. You asked me what was there to be gained from taking a moral stance. The answer to that is subjective and depends entirely on your moral philosophy. A nihilist would reject most things that others attribute meaning to. I never said nor implied that "not taking sides means nihilism".

Mjäll said:
What you deem to be overthinking may be precisely the thinking you need. Why would it be overthinking rather than new thinking or different thinking?
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Well, I mean, this question illustrates exactly what I meant. I make a simple statement about not overthinking things and you respond by fumbling and completely misconstruing my words. Sometimes it's better just to take a breath and speak plainly, rather than engaging in pseudo intellectual semantic games.
 
Mjäll said:
Does it take genius for Israel to fuck Hezbollah?

Isn't that a bit... over-enthusiastic?

It's a modern country against cavemen. Both religious zealots to an embarrassing degree that has no place in a developed world.
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Maybe genius was the wrong choice of words, but I simply meant the initial attack using software to explode pagers that were known to be possessed by Israel's enemies was both well targeted (i.e. low collateral damage) and massively successful. It was well thought out and must have been planned for years. I've never heard of anything like it in modern warfare.

Now that I think about it, genius is pretty well descriptive. I mean heck man, Hezbollah may seem like 'cavemen' to you but they are organized and well armed by Iran. Iran has been pumping out cheap drones and missiles since the 80s and I don't really think of them as cavemen, just a radical, theocratic nation state that uses the resources at its disposal. What they lack in technology they make up for in numbers (militias as well as sheer numbers of missiles and drones).
 
Cream Gravy? said:
Maybe genius was the wrong choice of words, but I simply meant the initial attack using software to explode pagers that were known to be possessed by Israel's enemies was both well targeted (i.e. low collateral damage) and massively successful. It was well thought out and must have been planned for years. I've never heard of anything like it in modern warfare.

Now that I think about it, genius is pretty well descriptive. I mean heck man, Hezbollah may seem like 'cavemen' to you but they are organized and well armed by Iran. Iran has been pumping out cheap drones and missiles since the 80s and I don't really think of them as cavemen, just a radical, theocratic nation state.
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Yeah that was a bit clever i think but i lack the background info to decide if it really accomplished anything special by being clever. I do believe that Israel could beat its enemies easily in terms of sheer military and tech power.

Caveman is an exaggerated description. But again isn't Israel leagues above?
 
mal3volent said:
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just playing the "devils" advocate here: maybe by "the state" he is talking about nation states in general. he isn't saying "the state of israel" directly, and "israel" has been put into the subtitles and the tweet. Sounds more like general anarchist talking points to me, but of course if you're an anarchist, it's a bit weird to me that they would take this conflict as an important event to spread their political ideology (which I am partially sympathetic to) because neither side is anywhere close to create some sort of anarchist society.

as for "it's happening in Syria" he might be referring to the region of Rojava which has some sort of anarcho-socialist system going on, but that is just a guess by me?
 
Mjäll said:
But again isn't Israel leagues above?
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When it comes to air superiority and intelligence (surveillance) most certainly. But the ground war will be decided by weapons that are decades old on both sides. By targeting so many of Hezbollah's leaders, and successfully, they have managed to throw Hezbollah into disarray and stop them from launching any true retaliation that could threaten Israeli citizens. They have ensured the war will take place in Lebanon and not north Israel, and I can't help but think, "damn."
 
Bagseed said:
just playing the "devils" advocate here: maybe by "the state" he is talking about nation states in general. he isn't saying "the state of israel" directly, and "israel" has been put into the subtitles and the tweet. Sounds more like general anarchist talking points to me, but of course if you're an anarchist, it's a bit weird to me that they would take this conflict as an important event to spread their political ideology (which I am partially sympathetic to) because neither side is anywhere close to create some sort of anarchist society.

as for "it's happening in Syria" he might be referring to the region of Rojava which has some sort of anarcho-socialist system going on, but that is just a guess by me?
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Yeah, wasn't trying to imply that he's antisemitic or anything. Just thought it was interesting he cited Syria as the beacon of a stateless feminist lead society.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rojava seems to exist only as a product of massive destabilization brought on by a decade of devastating civil war. It's not like they've established some kind of blueprint that could be replicated wide scale. There have been various similar examples like this throughout history.
 
Cream Gravy? said:
When it comes to air superiority and intelligence (surveillance) most certainly. But the ground war will be decided by weapons that are decades old on both sides. By targeting so many of Hezbollah's leaders, and successfully, they have managed to throw Hezbollah into disarray and stop them from launching any true retaliation that could threaten Israeli citizens. They have ensured the war will take place in Lebanon and not north Israel, and I can't help but think, "damn."
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Yeah that's a good move

Sliding into admiration of this 6000 y.o zealous ethnostate and its pet conflicts would be a mistake tho. I will choose to perceive no "genius" but rather robotic machinations fueled by hate and false superiority.
 
Mjäll said:
Yeah that's a good move

Sliding into admiration of this 6000 y.o zealous ethnostate and its pet conflicts would be a mistake tho. I will choose to perceive no "genius" but rather robotic machinations fueled by hate and false superiority.
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Israel is a multiracial, multicultural pluralistic democracy. Not an ethnostate. Stop coping.
 
mal3volent said:
Israel is a multiracial, multicultural pluralistic democracy. Not an ethnostate. Stop coping.
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It's a state explicitly created for one ethnicity, in the middle of other ethnicities with which said ethnicity has long standing religious conflicts since thousands of years. It was designed to fail.

A pluralistic population doesn't mean there's no ethnic incentives for the culture and nation at large. Israel is still a comparatively ethnocentric state.
 
'The law does three big things:

It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”' 🤔

www.vox.com

Israel’s hugely controversial “nation-state” law, explained

Supporters call Israel’s new Jewish nation-state law a “defining moment.” Critics say it’s “apartheid.”
www.vox.com www.vox.com
 
Has everyone duly studied this shit



Reminding y'all again

This jewish think tank wants mass migration of muslims to Europe. Israel is not your buddy against jihad. They want to be admired in their bullshit war and to be seen as saviors against islam - all bullshit. It's about power for themselves, nothing else.
 
Mjäll said:
Has everyone duly studied this shit



Reminding y'all again

This jewish think tank wants mass migration of muslims to Europe. Israel is not your buddy against jihad. They want to be admired in their bullshit war and to be seen as saviors against islam - all bullshit. It's about power for themselves, nothing else.
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That video doesn't say anything about Muslims in Europe, just about antisemitism and Jews in Europe...
 
someguyontheinternet said:
That video doesn't say anything about Muslims in Europe, just about antisemitism and Jews in Europe...
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That's not said in the clip but this jewish organization is actively collaborating with a muslim organization here in Sweden and is completely pro current multiculturalism in Sweden which largely consists of muslim immigrants. It's obvious that they see an increase in muslim population in Sweden (and by extension other western countries) as good and desirable, and actively promotes this heavily muslim-leaning multiculturalism (even though as you imply other multicultural constellations are imaginable). The lady in the clip has also downplayed the role of muslims in the rise of antisemitism in Sweden.
 
As westerners it's very important to absolutely distrust any sentiments coming from old evil religions that are not ours. No-one should pick a side, big mistake.
 
Mjäll said:
It's a state explicitly created for one ethnicity, in the middle of other ethnicities with which said ethnicity has long standing religious conflicts since thousands of years. It was designed to fail.

A pluralistic population doesn't mean there's no ethnic incentives for the culture and nation at large. Israel is still a comparatively ethnocentric state.
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We're moving the goalposts around quite a bit here. There is a huge difference in a state that was created for a certain ethnicity 80 years ago and an ethnostate that exists today in 2024. Your use of the term "ethnostate" is problematic in the first place since Israel doesn't restrict citizenship to any particular ethnicity or group. That is a ridiculous assertion.

Then in the next sentence you shift from "ethnostate" to "comparatively ethnocentric state".

Are you sure you aren't the one with bias here?
 
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