What made you find faith, or what turn against it?

[Asparagus_Prince]

it's a physical fact in our 3D space.
but perception is not only about physicality.

lol... did you really think I thought that was a good question?

I threw it out there because it reminded me of someone that asked me something similar. Many years ago. And they really thought it was a great "gotcha" moment: " How do you KNOW the earth is round? Because you believe it, just like us Christians believe certain things. You don't know it, you have faith in the scientists!"

*sigh*

If anyone really thinks that's a great point and would like me to explain why it isn't, let me know. Or I'm sure someone else can handle it.

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

Other people can believe whatever they want, I was just answering the question as for why I don't have faith.

Oh, I thought you were defining it.

But I agree with you. That's pretty much how I think faith should be looked at

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

As I say that we can all look at our life and pick out what we decided to have faith in. Some people put all their faith in their doctors.

I must say this got me thinking for a second. My reflex thought was that people of religious faith are probably hard-wired to have faith in all walks of life. Like for example with their doctor, as you suggested.

But I immediately thought of the 4 most religious people in my life. And they're actually NOT this way. They DON'T trust doctors. Or schools, the media, the "system", strangers and other cultures, etc.

Hmm. Are these 4 people outliers or have any of you noticed something similar?

 

[JackARoe]

Are these 4 people outliers or have any of you noticed something similar?

Just more examples of how and why people put faith in things. We sift and sort and then decide. Then that can change. (like a relationship that changes)

Faith and love have a commonality that I can't put my finger on. I mean if we have faith in someone that sort of says I love you.

One of the funniest comment I heard is from say someone that does not believe in a God or afterlife. I mean personally I could do without religion. I think we should focus on the here and now as we are suppose too. But i have heard someone say that people that believe in an afterlife do it to comfort themselves. Now I am a logical guy. Sleep is wonderful for me. Total unconscious sleep. I mean we all crave it, just about every night. lol We lay down and let go without worry. But I always felt that if we crave comfort we crave the deep sleep. So what we go on to an afterlife to get more troubles?? That is comfort? So it has been a misguided notion for me. Also I can't put my finger on it, but my actions seem important. So I have faith enough to know to be decent. But why do a lot of us know we should be decent? We get a chance each day to put that faith in action.

We can dissect faith into a million pieces.

Cavemen must have had faith that they would find food for the day as they hunted and farmed. (ok I will stop and shush)

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Cavemen must have had faith that they would find food for the day as they hunted and farmed. (ok I will stop and shush)

Modern humans have faith that airplanes will fly and that elevators are safe, etc. Most people don't understand them but have faith that they will work.

 

[Direwolf131]

For some people it's a major event (catastrophe, miracle) that made them find or lose their faith.
For others it was a slow process, triggered either by someone close or through reflection.
Others just follow through with what they were taught growing up.

What was it for you?

I don't think God wants me around after last night, I cursed him in ways that would make a sailor blanche, and I was a sailor, I mean really nasty name calling.... Nope, I don't think I'm in the book.

 

[Fire&Water]

I have faith this 747 tire
can withstand 500 lbs psi
instead of the 200 rating

Oooopsie

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

Yeah, I was talking earlier about the word "spirituality" and how it can mean different things. But you're right, faith is very much the same way.

But i have heard someone say that people that believe in an afterlife do it to comfort themselves.

I'm not so sure about the afterlife but I definitely feel people use general faith to comfort themselves. And again, we're using the word faith very generally here... their way. What I think actually happens is people use known comforting techniques and give faith/God too much credit. Whether they know it or not. Take prayer, for example. People often feel better after prayer and think that vindicates their belief in God. But, isn't it essentially the same thing as therapy? We're venting, expressing, sharing concerns, asking for guidance, and CONFESSING.

Back to the promise of the afterlife... Christians usually believe heaven is blissfully perfect. It's been "purified" and the devil no longer has the ability to corrupt it. So, they shouldn't be dreading the afterlife due to having ongoing troubles. My view is that not even Christians believe in the afterlife. Not really, not deep down. I just say that because I hear SO little about it relative to other topics they bring up. If I truly believed in heaven I think I'd dwell on it constantly! I couldn't stop thinking about it! I remember the last time I was pretty sure I was going to get laid from a new person... and the last time I was about to go on vacation. I looked SO forward to those things. But heaven!?!?!? Good lord if you really believe that surely it dominates your thoughts about 12 hours per day!

So I have faith enough to know to be decent. But why do a lot of us know we should be decent? We get a chance each day to put that faith in action.

I've thought about this a lot over the years. When people are generally good I think the explanation is 1 of 2 things: 1) We've been raised by decent parents and/or we've had good influences in our lives, or 2) The part of the brain that deals with morality, compassion, etc, is healthy and works well.

Sometimes I think about pedophiles and how people say stuff like "They should be dragged into the street and shot". Now, I'm not going to go down THAT road. But for me personally the idea of doing something sexual with a child would never occur to me. Does that make me a good person? Am I moral or decent for never ever having the TEMPTATION in the first place?

My mother and my grandmother used to have this mild disagreement. My grandmother would see something awful on the news and say something like: "There is something wrong with people!" And my mother would say: "No mom! Some people are just evil". I actually agree with my late grandmother on this one. People aren't "evil" as though the devil has gotten ahold of them. There IS something wrong with people that do evil things. We may never fully understand why. But there's an explanation there whether we realize it or not (which, BTW, is my basic rationale for atheism > religion)

 

[JackARoe]

How many keep the faith that the next paycheck or wooosh will come? Man none of us know what tomorrow brings, but we keep some faith and when it turns to shit we have faith another day. (That does get tiring though)

Joseph Campbell quoted that life is a Hero's journey. And to me it is all a test of faith. It is hard.

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

Sleep is wonderful for me. Total unconscious sleep. I mean we all crave it, just about every night. lol We lay down and let go without worry. But I always felt that if we crave comfort we crave the deep sleep. So what we go on to an afterlife to get more troubles?? That is comfort? So it has been a misguided notion for me.

What I'm about to say now really IS going way off topic. But I wanted to share but first wanted to explain why. When you were talking about sleep here I THOUGHT you were leading up to a point that I've always made. And I was getting excited because I thought I was going to hear it from someone else for the first time ever! But, you disappointed me and let me down (lol).

But I used to struggle with the concept of death. And this was back when I considered myself a Christian, too. The idea of it life suddenly ending one day was SO depressing for me. Talk about how heaven should dominate our thoughts? I thought about death a LOT.

But after witnessing the death of a certain someone I had the most comforting thought come over me. And ever since death no longer bothers me to the same extent. But I thought about the moments that we're tired and ALL we want to do is go to sleep. Surely everyone can think of a time when they were off-the-charts tired. It's not like we think: "No! Sleeping is SO boring. I'm going to be laying there for 8 hours doing nothing!". No, we embrace it and actually want it. My grandfather loved life and never would have invited death. But in the end, I could tell it was time. He was ready. He was really, REALLY tired. It had been a long, productive day so to speak.

I think it's hard for young-ish people to think about death. Or if you're a parent to think about moving on while your children continue. BUT... we don't know what it's like to be 90 years old either! Maybe then our brains aren't really full of exciting plans anymore. That might sound depressing but it's actually comforting to me. Even people that die too young or unexpectedly... even then there can be an element of contently "going to sleep" because I've seen it. I HOPE I'm tired and ready when I go someday.

Here lately I've yacked and rambled and answered a lot of questions no one have asked. But I've been in recovery/be good mode lately so this website has come in handy. It's been a good distraction and I'm grateful.

 

[JackARoe]

The part of the brain that deals with morality, compassion, etc, is healthy and works well.

I hope someone else posted above me and I didn't double post. But AP we could sit in a room and talk philosophy all day. You bring up great points. For me I believe the decency goes beyond the brain. If not I can hit an old lady over the head and steal her purse. And just say it was my brain. I do believe life is more and consciousness really is infinite. I like the Stuart Hameroff model. As a true hippy I believe I am decent to others because we are all One. And life means something bigger than the physical. But I don't say that for comfort. I'd rather sleep. lol Something is going on and it feels very much like a school house. Again I can't put my finger on it. So I search through books, psychedelics and about 10 years ago watched ever NDE video there was. I like that stuff. Yes it is interesting and interesting is comforting. Honestly a good mushroom or DMT trip makes me think.

The plowman is broad as the back of the land he is sowing
As he dances the circular track of the plow ever knowing
That the work of his day measures more than the planting and growing

Edit: lol I notice a new million thoughts AP. Give me some time. Told you we could talk all day. One day in the future we will click on a post and the people will be in the same room.

 

[paltatomate]

Here lately I've yacked and rambled and answered a lot of questions no one have asked. But I've been in recovery/be good mode lately so this website has come in handy. It's been a good distraction and I'm grateful.

Your thoughts, like anybody else's, are welcome. It's perfectly okay to stray off, that's what discussions like this should be: inspiration for new ideas, and to rethink old ones, and to try different approaches to find an answer to a question that has no definite answer.
I'm happy to hear that your recovery is going well, and that we all could add a little to it.

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

If not I can hit an old lady over the head and steal her purse. And just say it was my brain.

I doubt I could do something like that either. But it depends on how elderly the ole bitch is. If she's 90... no way, that's not a fair fight. 70? Yeah, she might be in for it then.

But seriously, never forget how much our circumstances impact who we are. Which means impacting the brain. If I had been raised by lousy abusive low-functioning parents and/or hung out in a terrible culture with survivalist primal people that normalized assault/theft my entire life, then I'm sure I'd be a completely different person. And capable of who-knows-what?

And life means something bigger than the physical. But I don't say that for comfort.

I do think there's something to say for really believing in certain things vs not necessarily believing in them literally but embracing them. I thought of a good example of this, left the room for a minute, and now can't remember it. But it's sorta like if I generally think it's a good idea to "do what Jesus would do". That doesn't make me a Christian. Nor does it mean I think he actually existed or that sort of violent human sacrifice was necessary to save the world.

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

I'm happy to hear that your recovery is going well,

Thank you.

 

[Asparagus_Prince]

I remember my example now. It's this concept of "love is a choice", if you've ever heard of that. It's the title of a book and many therapists, mental health professionals, etc, preach its gospel. I don't think I believe that it's actually true. BUT I believe it's a good idea if we operate as though it's true. This is a fascinating topic that I could go on and on about, actually

I wish more Christians would confess that they operate as though their religion is true. Because deep down I believe that's the truth for huge amounts of them despite telling others (and themselves) otherwise. And I'd be ok with many religions if it was merely that. Hell I might even be able to consider myself a Christian. But the doctrine and specifics and agendas and scaring/shaming people lead to so much turmoil and hateful collateral damage.

 

[paltatomate]

BUT I believe it's a good idea if we operate as though it's true. This is a fascinating topic that I could go on and on about, actually

Interesting point. Noted.

 

[RhythmSpring]

What made me find faith?

Me. I made me find faith. At a young age, I realized that being faithful to God (by being a good person even when there were no immediate or predictable rewards) would improve my environment, which would in turn improve myself.

When I did my first Iboga flood, at a critical moment, I thought and wrote the words, "I choose to believe." And those words still resonate with me. Belief is a choice. It's an act of creativity. When you believe, when you have faith, you emanate a vibe and you create a better world around you. You sit easier with yourself, and you're more relaxed. Maybe you're "deluding" yourself, but so what? Even if there is no God, why not make one up so you can be a better person and work toward a more harmonious society? Lack of faith breeds chaos, greed, and short-sightedness. Faith is both a pragmatic and a creative choice. It's more fun to live life with hope; then you have goals, and something to work for. This invigorates you. It creates a common bond with others who have faith.

So, nothing made me find faith, other than these observations.

My turning point was when I was in middle school, and someone left a poopy mess in the school bathroom. This, I discovered while going to the bathroom myself during class. I was about to leave when I realized I could clean it up, even though it wasn't mine. So, following this feeling of faith, I cleaned it up, understanding that deciding to be a good person would have all of the aforementioned benefits. I chose to believe that God was watching, and I also realized that, even if he wasn't watching, it was a revolutionary act to be altruistic in a sea of egotism. This in itself connects me to my power.

Thanks for asking!

 

[-=SS=-]

Not so much this, though. I don't want to speak for all atheists but a good amount of us haven't come to this conclusion.

I'm not sure about the "all only neurological activity" and I refuse to accept the big bang theory as a given fact.

But you have to have an ontological faith of some sort, as an organism incapable of not having intellectual thought. I don't buy the idea that a person hasn't made up their mind, in the same way a person may claim to not have decided on a particular sexual orientation; whether they want to admit it or not, they swing closer to one explanation than another.. there isn't really the possibility of a vacuum in this domain and I think they're not being honest with themselves about what they truly think.

What is your explanation for where/what the Universe is? And what is your explanation for how we construct the worldview we see? Both of these domains can't be ignored because they are absolutely the most immediate aspect of our own existence. You have to have considered an explanation for them. Every child has posed the question to themselves at some point.

I think Terrence McKenna said it wonderfully in one of his talks. Logically it is easier to believe a drunken deity pissed us out into creation that believe something came from nothing.

It's a shame he never pointed out the fact that one of the big bang theory' main proponents was a Jesuit priest. There's much to say on this point, but for another time.

 

[pixies+]

I didn’t realize this was a debate?

I thought people could come give their own experiences… without being pounced on for being “wrong”.

 

[-=SS=-]

I didn’t realize this was a debate?

I thought people could come give their own experiences… without being pounced on for being “wrong”.

It's an open discussion. Where did I say anyone was wrong? Or it was said that I were wrong? A point of disagreement was raised about something I said, I was merely responding to it.

I'm not challenging anyone on the particulars of their beliefs, but it is a completely legitimate point to raise that one can't have an absence of an ontological construct of some sort. You exist, and as human beings the immediacy of this experience is the first thing that we know before all else. One can't simply say "I do not exist" or pretend to not have belief about it one way or the other, that just amounts to sophistry.

Nothing wrong with enquiring what their particular set of explanations are for a) the Universe b) their own subjective experience. In fact, to not ask people about such things is a waste of life itself! I mean, we are here.. and whatever the reason is for that is infinitely more interesting and discussion worthy than any trite, banal shite that culture offers us, would you not agree?