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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Israel is under attack

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Cheshire_Kat said:
That's fine.

Now you possibly see why I said that this does not bode well for humanity. This is an ancient war. We (the entire world) do not belong in it's battle and in taking sides we are betting with the planet's future.

Iran has nuclear weapons and so does Israel. Let Israel and Palestine settle this alone.
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I think the US should stay out of it too, which means stopping aid to Israel. I don't want my tax dollars funding this nonsense
 
"Next question to Kurtzer: Obama's assertion that he needn't have a "Likud view" -- that of Israel's right-wing party -- to be pro-Israel. Kurtzer explained that Obama wanted to see a "plurality of views." Silence in the room.

To that, Lewis retorted: "The role of the president of the United States is to support the decisions that are made by the people of Israel. It is not up to us to pick and choose from among the political parties.""

In other words, you should support the Jewish people, not the more right wing party. I don't agree with that either, the Dems do suck in supporting Israel, slightly more moderate or not. But, that is the whole quote.
 
someguyontheinternet said:
The state of Israel does not represent Jewish people at large
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Ofcourse it doesn't, we all hate our governments, this is pretty universal. There have been protests against the war in Israel, they were bigger than the small protests against the arrested officers now. Only the machine likes war, because it makes them money. Bibi will try to keep in power with a war cabinet until he no longer can. The war with Hezbollah (and Iran) is coming, American politicians love it, despite them condemning it they know it is inevitable. Raytheon loves Israel and is not going to give those profits up for grabs.
 
I sympathize with the argument about cutting funding to foreign governments. But I don't think it's that simple in this case. It's a cost benefit analysis. Whether or not you agree with every action of the Israeli government (I don't), it's simply naive imo to dismiss the importance of global strategic alliances. There's a large portion of the globe that would not think twice about wiping out Israel and the rest of us. We should not allow ourselves to act hysterically, but we should also not be suicidal.

I doubt most of us here will be around to see the ultimate culmination of all these events, and I'm personally relieved. I'm just not sure cutting off the money would mean much at this point. Assassinations aren't expensive. Neither is breaching a fence and raping young girls at a concert. The vast majority of what we spend goes to missile defense systems and our own strategic assets.
 
Blowmonkey said:
Ofcourse it doesn't, we all hate our governments, this is pretty universal. There have been protests against the war in Israel, they were bigger than the small protests against the arrested officers now. Only the machine likes war, because it makes them money. Bibi will try to keep in power with a war cabinet until he no longer can. The war with Hezbollah (and Iran) is coming, American politicians love it, despite them condemning it they know it is inevitable. Raytheon loves Israel and is not going to give those profits up for grabs.
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"Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see

A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be"
 
mal3volent said:
I sympathize with the argument about cutting funding to foreign governments. But I don't think it's that simple in this case. It's a cost benefit analysis. Whether or not you agree with every action of the Israeli government (I don't), it's simply naive imo to dismiss the importance of global strategic alliances. There's a large portion of the globe that would not think twice about wiping out Israel and the rest of us. We should not allow ourselves to act hysterically, but we should also not be suicidal.

I doubt most of us here will be around to see the ultimate culmination of all these events, and I'm personally relieved. I'm just not sure cutting off the money would mean much at this point. Assassinations aren't expensive. Neither is breaching a fence and raping young girls at a concert. The vast majority of what we spend goes to missile defense systems and our own strategic assets.
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I can see value in your argument although I don't agree. Problem is that it would take a total restructuring of a lot to make that not so (which we should do).
However, the above argument and saying Israel is "right" because it somehow deserves the land are two different things.
 
brokedownpalace10 said:
I can see value in your argument although I don't agree. Problem is that it would take a total restructuring of a lot to make that not so (which we should do).
However, the above argument and saying Israel is "right" because it somehow deserves the land are two different things.
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I don't view it as them "deserving" the land. No one "deserves" land. If you care enough, I talked about this at length earlier in the thread.

I think the irreconcilable differences I have with others here relate to basic common sense issues. Everyone knows this is one of the longest, bloodiest conflicts in recent history. There is fault on both sides, and no reasonable person questions that. But in my mind, the larger overarching narratives people attempt to construct beyond the facts on the ground are very tiresome and most of the time bad faith.

Like, if you view every fucking thing in your life as "how can I promote my worldview to others", it's just sad. Whether you're an anarcho communist or a right wing fascist. I think the correct approach is to view things independently and try not to frantically connect the dots too much. So when I see comments about Jews controlling governments, or a bunch of non related fringe political theories, my brain says you're just an ideologue who is not capable of rational discourse.
 
Nobody is saying things about a particular religious group controlling things. The state of Israel, a government not a religion, does have a strange amount of lobbying power that other states do not
 
someguyontheinternet said:
Nobody is saying things about a particular religious group controlling things. The state of Israel, a government not a religion, does have a strange amount of lobbying power that other states do not
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I just think you should reflect on your rhetoric when it so closely resembles nazi propaganda.
I don't think you're antisemitic, despite our political differences.
I wish the same respect could be given to me.
I should be able to have a minority view here without being labeled as a literal racist by staff members.
 
mal3volent said:
I just think you should reflect on your rhetoric when it so closely resembles nazi propaganda.
I don't think you're antisemitic, despite our political differences.
I wish the same respect could be given to me.
I should be able to have a minority view here without being labeled as a literal racist by staff members.
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Not to get into this whatever it is, but someguy said the first thing that came to my mind. Israel is a country, not a religion. When people call someone antisemitic when they speak against Israel's policies I say just exactly that. I can be against Israel's policies and not hate Jewish people. (I've known some hot Jewish chicks, actually)

As to the land, if we don't just say that whoever was on it when whatever shit started has some rights, things can get pretty complicated really quickly.

When the rubes talk about the Israel thing to me I ask them, "Where do you think the Palestinians should go?"...

Maybe let them have the (entire) West Bank and Gaza and be a demilitarized country for the mo'?
Didn't Carter negotiate the Sinai being demilitarized as a condition of Egypt getting it back?
Love or hate Carter, you've gotta admit that things would be a tad more complicated if Egypt was still in this.
 
brokedownpalace10 said:
As to the land, if we don't just say that whoever was on it when whatever shit started has some rights, things can get pretty complicated really quickly.
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The problem is when you talk about who owns the land you get into a never ending spiral of political posturing and tit for tat whataboutism. Even native Americans stole land from each other between tribes. So no one is blameless. The entire history of the planet is conquest and war. Not just for white people, but all of mankind.

Britain owned the land. The world agreed to give it to the Jews after the horrors of WWII and everything that led up to it. Atrocities were committed by both sides since then, but Israel grew into a prosperous functioning democracy. They have just as good a claim as anyone else. Archeologically, they have perhaps the best claim.

Skip to October 7, that was an escalation like we hadn't seen. Rather than the world being behind Israel, they were made villains instantly. Leftists who say believe all women suddenly were saying the reported rapes were lies. Proponents of LGBT rights began acting as if Hamas were virtuous freedom fighters. I mean really, what reality are we living in? Are we really just going to abandon all our principles to advance a communist east vs west agenda? That's what I see happen far too often
 
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mal3volent said:
Britain owned the land.
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Britain "owned" the land? And how did that come about? The same way they "owned" other countries? No one was living there?
There's the rub, sir.
Didn't Britain, and the world, envision a much smaller Israeli presence?
Britain bailed pretty early as I remember and the Israeli's started expanding. (🔥 Arrall, I usually don't see the need to go into that detail)
Yes, there was a war. Did we kick the Germans out and take Germany?
 
arrall said:
October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum.
As people here have repeatedly attempted to explain to you, this statement ignores nearly a century of history.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org

Nakba - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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"Ahh but you see if we look back in history we have to make excuses for Israel about how Jews were exiled that has nothing to do with how Israel is treating Palestinians who are also haters of women and democracy so that makes killing them okay!"
 
someguyontheinternet said:
"Ahh but you see if we look back in history we have to make excuses for Israel about how Jews were exiled that has nothing to do with how Israel is treating Palestinians who are also haters of women and democracy so that makes killing them okay!"
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Love to see the good faith political discourse
If anyone wants any of my positions better explained feel free to look back through all my posts that were never responded to over 260 pages.
No point spending my time rehashing them when they'll just be responded to like this.
 
massive attacks are being planned by iran. America sending naval assets and troops to support israel.

Fuck the attollayhs in iran. Israel should drop a bomb on the supremre leader of iran
 
TripSitterNZ said:
massive attacks are being planned by iran. America sending naval assets and troops to support israel.

Fuck the attollayhs in iran. Israel should drop a bomb on the supremre leader of iran
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Are you talking nuclear?
If that happens think of all the treaties and alliances that would kick in.
The world definitely doesn't need anything like that.

America needs to stop sending support and getting involved with other countries' affairs.
 
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