Russo-Ukrainian War v. World War 3?

[AlsoTapered]

Every strategy for understanding fascism must come to terms with the wide diversity of its national cases. The major question here is whether fascisms are more disparate than the other “isms.

But the overarching theme is people who are prepared to selectively ignore the facts and BELIEVE in a shared lie. Because the truth is too painful, too personal and most importantly - shows their own faults.

Thus it appeals to those who need an 'other' to blame.

STILL OT, STILL no facts - start a thread on fascism and we can fairly discuss the matter. But not here.

 

[Jnowhere]

I do not know how to, and Canada is a good example of fascism starting to blossom

 

[Jen X]

I do not know how to, and Canada is a good example of fascism starting to blossom

It sure is. the conservative party made a comment a couple weeks ago about making online porn unavailable to people underage. Don't know how that would be possible though. We have enough government overreach as it is.

I used to be so proud of my country but not anymore.

 

[Jnowhere]

Sorry, when I saw current events and politics, it slipped my mind that this was about the horrible bloodbath in the Ukraine, my bad.
My question is how serious about helping Ukraine are the European members of NATO and is it just talk or is there a real chance this could ramp up and actually have NATO Troops sent there?

 

[Jnowhere]

I

It sure is. the conservative party made a comment a couple weeks ago about making online porn unavailable to people underage. Don't know how that would be possible though. We have enough government overreach as it is.

I used to be so proud of my country but not anymore.

I am sad to hear that, I can't argue otherwise but that is happening here to it is sad

 

[Jnowhere]

I personally think banning outside news sources, which it has already done is infinitely worse than teenagers not being able to jerk off to porn. The over reach by the liberals in control is far worse then an attempt to keep porn from minors; do you sit around saying, gee Canada will fall apart if it is slightly more difficult for teenagers to masterbate to online porn?

 

[AlsoTapered]

It sure is. the conservative party made a comment a couple weeks ago about making online porn unavailable to people underage. Don't know how that would be possible though. We have enough government overreach as it is.

I used to be so proud of my country but not anymore.

That 'other' to blame.

BTW Canadian people - awesome. I was saved by a Canadian friend airlifting me out of Detroit (figuratively) and saving my sanity.

 

[Jnowhere]

Anyways, I would like a European perspective on what is going on in the Ukraine
1. Do other Easter European countries want to put boots on the ground?
2. What kind of support do western countries and their populations have for getting involved in the conflict?
3.How serious is NATO about really getting involved, beyond a little weapons assistance here and there?

 

[Jnowhere]

This is a thread about Ukraine vs Russia, not the Urban toilet that I live near or the once nice country that is falling a part under Dictator wannabe Trudeau and the mess Detroit is or increasingly Canada is becoming

 

[AlsoTapered]

Please remember - this footage is from 1981.

But we understand 'salami tactics'.

We also know that for over 40 years Europe was 'the dummy target' by which I mean both Russia and the US both believed that a 'limited nuclear war' would take place in Europe i.e. neither Russia nor the US actually suffering the 'city burning machines' as XKCD refers to hydrogen weapons.

So when we see a frankly insane attack - we quite reasonably think we might be next. A LOT of Russian politicians have said just that. They INTEND to take all.

I am consoled in a tiny way by knowing that the UKs SLBM fleet doesn't employ a PAL (the captain and weapons officer only need to agree) and is composed of Trident missiles. I imagine it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the Russians to know if a strike was by the US or the UK.

I don't know about the French nuclear weapons. But it does reasonably constrain someone from using nuclear weapons. But constantly using them as a threat? How CAN you deal with someone like that?

But as a nation and out of no expectation of support, we do what we can. Because it COULD be us and that is what friends do for friends.

BTW I worked with a Ukrainian team for a decade and they very much are not Russians. I've only met a few Russians and I've not met one I disliked... but they were all very fatalistic which I found sad. Look at Russia's natural resources. Every single Russian should be driving a Merc and living in great comfort. How were the Russian people ripped off so easily?

 

[Jnowhere]

Will the UK and France both be Deploying both of their ballistic missle subs?

 

[Jnowhere]

600 tiny war heads combined

 

[Jnowhere]

And how many are on those 4 subs?
Please tell me the leaders of western Europe are not foolish enough to have a proxy nuclear war in Western Europe.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Enough.

Is 350 Kt 'tiny'? Is 600 'tiny;?

Obviously France has more - a lot more but they are VERY careful not to say how many. But I suspect whatever they consider 'enough'.

BTW since 1949 we all KNEW we were 'the dummy target' hence us just ensuring that NATO works both ways.

That is not so say that if Canada or the USA was ever to be attacked, we would sit their and consider it 'not our problem'. Mates help mates and although small, we will 100% support/aid/provide to those two great nations. We haven't forgotten that they showed up for us in a BIG way. Not forgetting the Anzacs and everyone else who did what they could. A team effort.

 

[Electrum1]

 

[Electrum1]

 

[-=SS=-]

The great thing about living in a democracy is that Parliament, and Congress, don't need to be consulted about sending special forces i.e. SAS, SBS, into foreign countries to conduct activities. Fucking great that.

 

[Jen X]

Does anyone think Putin would start a nuclear war?

He seems the type who's ego wouldn't let him lose so I'm wondering if he will.

I hope he's smart enough to know there would be no winners but would he doom us all so he doesn't lose?

 

[-=SS=-]

Does anyone think Putin would start a nuclear war?

No chance. None of the world leaders would. None of them would benefit from it - keeping the public afraid of such a scenario is infinitely more profitable.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a falseflag nuclear detonation though, in order to really stir things up. Nothing would surprise me at this point. Hell, they could even just fake one then cut the internet at the same time so no one can communicate the truth. Who the fuck knows.

Ukraine is never going to beat Russia, not unless they get given troops from Nato countries. This was obvious from the start, and the MSM is now openly talking about it (despite telling everyone Ukraine was winning lol). They don't have the manpower, they don't have the weaponry, they don't have the ammunition.

So, either Russia is going to take Ukraine by the end of the year, or, someone is going to conspire to do something really fucking stupid and deliberately try to broaden this into a wider conflict. Like, the German's.. who just got caught openly plotting such an operation (attacking a bridge with cruise missiles).

The real danger is from us, the West. We started this bullshit by meddling in Ukraine back in 2014. We deliberately removed the option of peace talks. And now it seems we're about to try and provoke Russia further.

It's just so fucking boring, this charade. Personally I can't wait for them to try and broaden the war, then try to instigate conscription or societal wide 'war time' emergency plans.. I hope they fucking try it, because it's going to backfire on them spectacularly. People have had enough of this bullshit - except perhaps the boomer generation, who are still clinging on to this fantasy land narrative they've lived in their entire lives.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Does anyone think Putin would start a nuclear war?

He seems the type who's ego wouldn't let him lose so I'm wondering if he will.

I hope he's smart enough to know there would be no winners but would he doom us all so he doesn't lose?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Aaron Stein (Arms Control Wonk) keeps track of Putin's public events on the basis that if the guy is enjoying his life, he is less likely to seek to end that life.

The tough thing is that the west actually tried to offer 'off ramps' to allow him to save face but not taken.

Logically - NOBODY seeks to invade Russia. It's the largest nation on the planet by some margin BUT the war is being sold to the Russian public as being an existential threat. I mean, history is littered with people who THOUGHT they could invade Russia and in every case they were destroyed. How would one even occupy such a huge nation? So it seems rather far fetched to use such a lie.

How strong is Russian public support for the invasion of Ukraine?

Many in the West argue that the majority of Russians support the invasion of Ukraine. However, nuanced analysis of Russian polling data indicates this is not the case, and suggests the Russian public is actually more concerned with how soon the war will end, writes Vladimir Milov.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

It would appear that everyday Russian people aren't strongly supporting the war any more. I looked at public support for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it does appear that loss of public support was a key driver in that case.

But who really knows? It's no longer clear what Russia's theory of victory is. To occupy the whole of Ukraine appeared to be the original goal but it's been scaled back several times since then. That's tough - salami tactics have ALWAYS been the successful methodology so an invasion looked ill considered. So salami tactics again...

But one only needs to hear the rhetoric of Russian politicians - essentially threatening other European nations.

If I were Putin I would be careful using history as justification as HUGE areas of Russia are historically Chinese (see 'century of unequal treaties') and China is vastly more powerful than Russia. If China chose to take back their land - I don't see anyone helping.