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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Israel is under attack

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Rachrach said:
You mentioned Collateral Damage, not being able to get your mind around it.
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I only used that phrase because you did. I wouldn't use so callous of a phrase to refer to dead people. And yeah I did read all of your post.

mal3volent said:
can you link to some articles that discuss first hand accounts of large numbers of civilian bodies ?
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I mean there's a shit ton... Here's one

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www.npr.org

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think it's possible for the US, or any other government to go in and get some kind of census, in the middle of a war zone? Do you think there's a squad that goes in and counts the bodies? Who, other than the gazan health ministry, do you expect to count these dead? Israel?

It is an imperfect science to begin with.

I understand why you would want to lay blame on Hamas for their attacks, I just don't see why Israel is being seen as some benevolent state acting solely in self defense. What's going on over there is brutal, and both sides have committed atrocities. Not sure why that's so tough to concede for some.
 
Mal thinks they're just conjuring up dead because he hasn't seen any mass grave.

We on the other hand see vids of extreme destruction and death every day.

Pretty much everyone, except Israel for very specific reasons, has been taking the health ministry numbers at face value by now.
 
This is all ridiculous, this is war. 30,000 dead. What about the millions that died in the Congo wars. I guess they don't matter, in so many peoples minds, because no one seems to have cared that millions of poor black Africans died in the Congo wars and this shit is heating up again. As far as I am concerned the Israeli's have used restraint and Hamas, a terrorist group, could care less about civilian deaths, other than for propaganda value. Let's be honest, if Isreal's neighbors had the strength and ability, there would be a second Holocaust.
There is no question that the "Push them into the sea" mentality of the pre-Six Day War, Nasser era sentiment is as strong as ever. It is clear that Isreal has used a remarkable amount of restraint, compared to what it's enemies would do to them, if they could.
The fact that there isn't another zero behind the death toll: Shows that, given their firepower, Israel has shown it's enemies a level of mercy that it's enemies would never even consider.
 
deficiT said:
I only used that phrase because you did. I wouldn't use so callous of a phrase to refer to dead people. And yeah I did read all of your post.


I mean there's a shit ton... Here's one

Loading…

www.npr.org

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think it's possible for the US, or any other government to go in and get some kind of census, in the middle of a war zone? Do you think there's a squad that goes in and counts the bodies? Who, other than the gazan health ministry, do you expect to count these dead? Israel?

It is an imperfect science to begin with.

I understand why you would want to lay blame on Hamas for their attacks, I just don't see why Israel is being seen as some benevolent state acting solely in self defense. What's going on over there is brutal, and both sides have committed atrocities. Not sure why that's so tough to concede for some.
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Literally no one in this thread has claimed Israel is benevolent or perfect. We're saying that they have a right to go after a terrorist group that vowed to continue their attacks forever. Again I will state that I've never said the death counts are false. Simply asking why there have been so few images of mass death that you would expect to see if 40,000 civilians had been killed within such a small area of land. There could be explanations for this: perhaps the infrastructure has been so damaged that the propaganda photos that were being disseminated early in the conflict from the war zone can no longer be produced as easily. Late last year you could go on Twitter and see the same photo of one dead child shared thousands of times. There were real children, but there were also dolls made to look like real children. My point is, every tragic death that occurred was hurriedly photographed and shared on social media.

Thank you for actually providing a source with a photo. Unfortunately that looks to be 20-30 people with no mention of civilian status. As was stated earlier, 40,000 dead civilians means hundreds are being killed every single day. 300-400 every single day in an area the size of Las Vegas. Have you ever been to Vegas? It's quite small. To be perfectly transparent with my thoughts, the main deception I feel that could be occurring is that Hamas fighters are being included in the civilian death count. Whatever discrepancy this accounts for is unimportant really, because the loss of any amount of innocent life is tragic. I just hate to see the Gaza health ministry numbers be taken so seriously when they're controlled by Hamas and literally lied about that hospital bombing months ago. The one that they said Israel hit directly killing 500, but turned out it was a failed PIJ rocket that a hit the parking lot next to the hospital.
 
Buzz Lightbeer said:
Mal thinks they're just conjuring up dead because he hasn't seen any mass grave.

We on the other hand see vids of extreme destruction and death every day.

Pretty much everyone, except Israel for very specific reasons, has been taking the health ministry numbers at face value by now.
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All I asked was for you to share the "vids of extreme death" you claim to see every single day. Just a few maybe that would illustrate the scale of what is really going on. Because I follow many pro Palestine accounts and haven't seen them. As I've said many times now, I've seen many tragic instances of 1-2 children that get mass shared all around X. I've seen blown up buildings that looked abandoned.

We all know Hamas utilizes propaganda to maximize international outrage against Israel. "We love death more than we love life". That's their words not mine. Forgive me for questioning if such people might inflate civilian death counts. So ghoulish bro.
 
Mjäll said:
He means you just picked the US as an authority because you live there and are partial to your country, and not because they can be expected to know
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Please try to be objective for a moment. If the US can't be expected to know , who can? It has nothing to do with any opinion of my country. It has to do with the fact that we have unlimited resources, unmatched intelligence capabilities, and are better strategically positioned than any other country to obtain such data.
 
mal3volent said:
Please try to be objective for a moment. If the US can't be expected to know , who can? It has nothing to do with any opinion of my country. It has to do with the fact that we have unlimited resources, unmatched intelligence capabilities, and are better strategically positioned than any other country to obtain such data.
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blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa You are just trying to make goal posts as close to each other as possible
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
verified by the united states. TF does the USA even have to do with this?
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you mean besides all the money we've given both sides? The fact that we're allies with Israel?
What about the Houthi rebels in Yemen attacking our Navy?
We have significant involvement in the region.

It's really nothing to do with that though, the US and other countries could play a role in documenting and verifying exactly what has occurred and the number of civilians lost.
 
No, I won't. That statement is also as shit as claiming the self-igniting man was suffering of mental health issues only because they self-ignited themselves. I can be drunk and make sense, even if you didn't understand what making sense means.

You have been pointed out proof of things. You tell "it is not good enough".

Coming up with tight set of arbitrary criteria for proof like, in advance, deciding proof can not be proof if it does not come from America, is shit, and your argumentation for it "it can not be true if America has not estimated it to be true and published the information" is shit.
 
mal3volent said:
Please try to be objective for a moment. If the US can't be expected to know , who can? It has nothing to do with any opinion of my country. It has to do with the fact that we have unlimited resources, unmatched intelligence capabilities, and are better strategically positioned than any other country to obtain such data.
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Also Israel allied and not neutral whatsoever, with a presidential election split between a demented fool and a narcissistic dick

But sure - Murica
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
No, I won't. That statement is also as shit as claiming the self-igniting man was suffering of mental health issues only because they self-ignited themselves. I can be drunk and make sense, even if you didn't understand what making sense means.

You have been pointed out proof of things. You tell "it is not good enough".

Coming up with tight set of arbitrary criteria for proof like, in advance, deciding proof can not be proof if it does not come from America, is shit, and your argumentation for it "it can not be true if America has not estimated it to be true and published the information" is shit.
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lol, I never implied that I automatically believe everything the US says. I would believe them in this specific situation because they actually have a vested interest in transparency. Providing independent verifiable information would help set the record straight and cut through the bullshit. I'm not sure if that is even possible though, since it would probably necessitate Hamas keeping records of its members. They don't wear uniforms or carry identification so...yeah.

What body would you suggest other than the US that would be better equipped to go in and provide support for reconstruction and do a thorough autopsy of everything that occurred? The UN can't do it-- they refused to condemn the Oct7 attacks and actually had members who participated in said attacks. So they're not exactly trustworthy in my view.
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
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A bit disingenuous, don't you think? Given you can't see what is in the context of their picture (they aren't even facing the background we see). We can debate about [female] soldiers taking goddamn selfies during conflict and military operations, but I'd argue this probably isn't all that different to soldiers playing cricket or goofing around, as they always have done - fighting is serious, and seriously shite, enough as it is.

How an AP photographer made this image of Israeli female soldiers taking a selfie at the Gaza border
Even though it looks like we are in Gaza in this photograph, both the soldiers and I were in Israel, looking over the border.

I use a Sony camera and 100-400 lens, which kind of compresses the perspective. This is the longest lens that I have. I was about 300 meters away from the soldiers, and the buildings in Gaza behind them were about 500 meters on the other side of the border.
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