• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Palestine discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Israel losing to Hamas would very like look like a genuine genocide. Total victory for Hamas isn't about a single state of Jews and Muslims singing kumbaya forever. But, of course, it is almost impossible to imagine Hamas winning in at all, unless a power like Iran stepped in. And then, all bets are off, that scenario is very much a WW3 type situation. I dont think Iran is strong enough to really run risk of such a thing, so beyond using Hamas and Hezbollah as proxies, I don't think Iran will openly enter this conflict. I'm assuming they're a rational actor, so who knows?
 
Yeah I think it’ll eventually go back to same old same old regarding regional tensions and the periodic flare-up

Maybe Israel’s position will be undermined among the Arabs, depending on what happens in Gaza…until relatively recently it seemed to me like the leadership of the Arab states had basically reluctantly moved to a position of acceptance regarding Israel. That’s a long way from where they were in the early 90s, when they wouldn’t even show flight paths through Israel in Arab airports (or at least that’s what I read in an old magazine recently from that period). Maybe if the Israelis overplay their hand some of that progress will be lost, or maybe not, I dunno. I doubt that a lot of the Arab leadership cares in any kind of genuine way about the Palestinians
 
Israel offered a 2 month ceasefire to exchange hostages. Hamas declined.

So, is Hamas and Oct 7th really a "natural reaction" to Israeli aggression?

Because apparently they don't give two shits about Palestinian people dying. They'd rather keep the hostages to perpetuate this war than do anything to helpful for their civilians.

I understand all the criticism directed at Israel, but I still have no idea why those same people refuse to criticize Hamas.

It is kind of insane that Netanyahu is making statements like ending the Palestinian state in general. Biden needs to put his foot down and denounce extremism like that.
 
Because apparently they don't give two shits about Palestinian people dying. They'd rather keep the hostages to perpetuate this war than do anything to helpful for their civilians.

I mean most of the main Hamas people aren’t directly in the line of fire in Gaza. As far as the conflict proceeding, they probably think the uglier it gets the better basically. They’re not stupid, they know what’ll happen when you get into a slaughter contest with Israel, Israel will say “hold my beer!” and will do two to you for every one you do to it. This is just on a much bigger scale obviously

There are a bunch of differences but, think of Oct 7th kinda like the Tet Offensive. Militarily, Tet was pretty much a failure and in fact the Viet Cong took such heavy losses that they were out of commission for the rest of the war, with their slack getting taken up by the NVA. But, viewed politically and with the benefit of hindsight, we can say that it was a major turning point in the conflict and a political win for the North Vietnamese. They managed to forcibly thrust a waning issue back unto center stage
 
I’m not even sure what Israel losing to Hamas would even look like. Granted I don’t think it’s within Israel’s power to completely wipe out Hamas either but

It would look like Iran, Turkey, Russia etc getting involved. Hamas aren't defeating Israel without outside help.
 
It would look like Iran, Turkey, Russia etc getting involved. Hamas aren't defeating Israel without outside help.
That could ultimately lead to a hot war with the US/UK/Western allies, ala WW1 and the line of alliance dominoes that fell to start a global conflagration over what was a basically provincial issue. I truly do not think that any of those 3 countries would be willing to risk a war with the West over such a truly inconsequential backwater like Gaza. At least, not yet... But dragging allies into small ideological conflicts at a time when those nations are internally beset with issues is just opening another chink in the armour and all those chinks add up.
 
I am not physically involved in the conflict, so I have nothing to say. Aside from, there's enough conflict in my direct sight. Waiting for my hardy breakfast. Good morning everyone
 
Israel .... ceasefire
i wouldn't trust israel to stick to a ceasefire any more than i'd trust al qaeda with my gay uncle.

israel literally does not care about the hostages. not even a little bit.


It is kind of insane that Netanyahu is making statements like ending the Palestinian state in general. Biden needs to put his foot down and denounce extremism like that.
i mean but this is what it's all about. the zionists are colonialists and are very open about their desire for ethnic cleansing.

how do you create a zion when there's an arab, non jewish majority? you remove that majority. and since asking nicely won't work, the only realistic option is ethnic cleansing.

the colonialism can be plainly seen by looking at the west bank.

the zionists unfortunately hold a lot of power.

and biden said he is a proud zionist.

maybe the recent icj decision to officially tell israel to not do war crimes... maybe it will allow biden a way out... maybe, but does he want a way out?
 
Here's a little something to know about Netanyahu: he was raised by a father who was an adherent of a school of Zionism that has some extreme positions. They believe that Israel should lay claim to every square inch of territory that ever was part of the ancient Jewish state, going back to the days of King Solomon and even further back. In their opinion that includes all of the West Bank, the whole Jordan River, and all the East Bank of the Jordan. In other words, these particular Zionists believe that the country of Jordan should not really exist because where it sits is land they claim. They also believe part of Syria and Lebanon is rightly theirs. Some of them claim Gaza and the Sinai pennisula is also rightfully theirs. The most extreme Zionists claim God intended the Jews to have land from the Euphrates in Iraq all the way to the east bank of the Nile river.

Historians debate over just what actually constituted the borders of ancient Israel and Judea. But let's realize that hardcore Zionists have rather expansive notions about where the borders of Israel should be. In no way were they ever satisfied with what Britain - and then the United Nations - allocated to modern Israel. Then bear in mind that little Bibi N. was indoctrinated to that way of thinking on his father's knee. Bibi Netanyahu has been very consistent all his life, except for some occasional lip service about compromise that he would mumble now and then, but do nothing constructive to bring about.

Go to YouTube. Type in "Discussion with Netanyahu at age 28." You'll hear a young Bibi tell you exactly what he believed then. He ain't ever changed his mind one little bit.
 
who? i literally know of nobody that's unwilling to criticize hamas.

lack of criticism by omission

For one example, calling oct 7th a "natural reaction from an oppressed people" is, in essence, legitimizing Hamas

Oppressed Palestinian civilians did not organize Oct 7th, Hamas did.

nothing can contextualize war crimes

Context and justification are not the same thing.

hamas killing innocent israeli citizens is inexcusable, so is what israel is doing.

In theory I agree, but this is where I think we depart in view; I consider myself a pacifistic, but also a realist. All violence is detestable, ignorant, often evil.

But violence is also a part of our world, a part of our species. We are a violent species. It will never stop. This world we live in will never be some eutopia. Violence, evil, and despair are just as much a part of this universe as peace, happiness and health.

If a ceasefire were called, even if Israel offered a full truce and restitution, Hamas would continue their crusade. Hamas would not stop, as they have said themselves.

Hamas is a cancer upon the Palestinian people and a brick wall between peace in this conflict.

israel literally does not care about the hostages. not even a little bit.
They just offered a 2 month ceasefire to exchange the remaining hostages... and Hamas said NO, because they only want more death upon both sides including their own.

Israel certainly does care about their hostage people. Hamas is the one who doesn't care.

i mean but this is what it's all about. the zionists are colonialists and are very open about their desire for ethnic cleansing.

how do you create a zion when there's an arab, non jewish majority? you remove that majority. and since asking nicely won't work, the only realistic option is ethnic cleansing.

the colonialism can be plainly seen by looking at the west bank.

the zionists unfortunately hold a lot of power.

and biden said he is a proud zionist.

maybe the recent icj decision to officially tell israel to not do war crimes... maybe it will allow biden a way out... maybe, but does he want a way out?

If believing that Jewish people deserve a country to live in of their own, I guess I'm also a Zionist... and I'm vehemently against Abrahamic religions.

Muslims are exponentially moreso the colonialists. They took over the entire northern part of Africa, and many parts east of the Middle East.

Muslims have committed vastly more "war crimes", brutalization and oppression. Not just in the last 100 years, but in the last 2000 years.

Not all people living in Israel are Zionists.

I feel so weird sometimes defending what I understand to be a far right regime, but I also can sympathize as to why they became far right. Palestine is also far right, though.
 
This hag is still in office? But I agree with her, I've been saying Russia was involved in this from the start. All an attempt to get some of Biden's voters to turn against him and vote for Trump.

 

If I did this right, then the link above will take you to the video I referenced in my previous post.

Young Netanyahu called himself "Ben Nitay." This discussion took place in Boston. Bibi was a student at MIT at some point, so he spent time in Massachsetts. Regarding the 2-state solution: In this video, he says, "There are already 21 Arab states; we don't need a 22nd."

If you listen close, he quietly murmurs something about the Arabs of Palestine eventually becoming citizens of Jordan. He clearly wants Palestine to have only one state - Israel. Furthermore, he certainly does not want all the inhabitants of Palestine becoming citizens of Israel, because Arabs outnumber Jews in Palestine. That has been true for centuries. Basically, he gives the Arabs in Palestine (outside of the recognized Israeli borders) two choices - #1 Stay in Gaza or on the West Bank, where you will endure a police state level of supervision, no vote and not too many rights OR #2 Pick out one of the nearby Arab countries and move there . . . or emigrate to any damn place you like.

Netanyahu wants for Israel to eventually annex Gaza and the West Bank . . . after those areas have been ethnically cleansed. He basically tells us that Israel's security requires that, about which a case can be made. Plans are already being drawn up to start building Jewish settlements in Gaza. He wants the Arabs currently living there gone! So he's demolishing the strip to the point that it's already nearly uninhabitable. This is the whole point behind destroying even the university campus, along with hospitals, mosques, homes schools. He wants the Gazans to have nothing to cling to because that makes it more likely that they'll leave.

Netanyahu sees that many millions of Ukrainians have been resettled outside of Ukraine in a rather short period of time. He wants to see Arabs fleeing Palestine the same way that 18 million Ukrainians have fled Ukraine. They were fleeing from war. So he's bombing the hell out of Gaza to incentivize the Arabs to flee.

Some say the conflict is complicated. Not me. It's really quite simple and straightforward, once you get acquainted with what Zionism is really aspiring to get, which is the enlargement of the Jewish state into a "Greater Israel" - from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (at least.)
 
Last edited:

If I did this right, then the link above will take you to the video I referenced in my previous post.

Young Netanyahu called himself "Ben Nitay." This discussion took place in Boston. Bibi was a student at MIT at some point, so he spent time in Massachsetts. Regarding the 2-state solution: In this video, he says, "There are already 21 Arab states; we don't need a 22nd."

If you listen close, he quietly murmurs something about the Arabs of Palestine eventually becoming citizens of Jordan. He clearly wants Palestine to have only one state - Israel. Furthermore, he certainly does not want all the inhabitants of Palestine becoming citizens of Israel, because Arabs outnumber Jews in Palestine. That has been true for centuries. Basically, he gives the Arabs in Palestine (outside of the recognized Israeli borders) two choices - #1 Stay in Gaza or on the West Bank, where you will endure a police state level of supervision, no vote and not too many rights OR #2 Pick out one of the nearby Arab countries and move there . . . or emigrate to any damn place you like.

Netanyahu wants for Israel to eventually annex Gaza and the West Bank . . . after those areas have been ethnically cleansed. He basically tells us that Israel's security requires that, about which a case can be made. Plans are already being drawn up to start building Jewish settlements in Gaza. He wants the Arabs currently living there gone! So he's demolishing the strip to the point that it's already nearly uninhabitable. This is the whole point behind destroying even the university campus, along with hospitals, mosques, homes schools. He wants the Gazans to have nothing to cling to because that makes it more likely that they'll leave.

Netanyahu sees that many millions of Ukrainians have been resettled outside of Ukraine in a rather short period of time. He wants to see Arabs fleeing Palestine the same way that 18 million Ukrainians have fled Ukraine. They were fleeing from war. So he's bombing the hell out of Gaza to incentivize the Arabs to flee.

Some say the conflict is complicated. Not me. It's really quite simple and straightforward, once you get acquainted with what Zionism is really aspiring to get, which is the enlargement of the Jewish state into a "Greater Israel" - from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (at least.)
 
lack of criticism by omission

For one example, calling oct 7th a "natural reaction from an oppressed people" is, in essence, legitimizing Hamas

Oppressed Palestinian civilians did not organize Oct 7th, Hamas did.
Gotta strongly push back on the idea that "lack of criticism by omission" constitutes some kind of endorsement.

Personally I think it's a disappointing reflection of how insecure we all seem to have become about our own humanity that any discussion of Israeli foreign policy that isn't a glowing endorsement has to be prefaced with, "of course, what happened on October 7th was a despicable, horrible act of terrorism..." or some variation of that. Can we not just assume that everyone already believes that it was, indeed, not a nice thing to happen? (And I really don't mean that to minimise it, I just find this deliberately barbed language exhausting.)

That said - both things can be true. It can be a morally abhorrent crime and, I don't know if I want to say "natural", I'd like to maintain a little more faith in the human species than that, but definitely it wasn't an unpredictable situation and could in some sense be said to be a reaction to decades of, let's face it, oppression.

I mean, everything you said could be flipped to apply to "lack of criticism by omission" of Israel. I read the rest of your post and I see you have not exactly openly said that it's fine and understandable that Israel is just flagrantly bombing heavily populated regions into oblivion and killing 20000+ or whatever the current number is but neither have you actually condemned it. I would be happy to assume that you do, in fact, think this is not a nice thing either, but...
All violence is detestable, ignorant, often evil.

But violence is also a part of our world, a part of our species. We are a violent species. It will never stop. This world we live in will never be some eutopia. Violence, evil, and despair are just as much a part of this universe as peace, happiness and health.
I mean... this is just an obvious double standard.

If believing that Jewish people deserve a country to live in of their own, I guess I'm also a Zionist... and I'm vehemently against Abrahamic religions.

Muslims are exponentially moreso the colonialists. They took over the entire northern part of Africa, and many parts east of the Middle East.

Muslims have committed vastly more "war crimes", brutalization and oppression. Not just in the last 100 years, but in the last 2000 years.

Not all people living in Israel are Zionists.
Whole bunch of stuff to unpack here.

Palestine =/= all Muslims throughout history, why is that relevant to anything? Also colonialism is colonialism, the British also did a lot of it, I don't know where it ranks on the scale of absolute brutality, although I'd think it's gotta be near the top, but just because "other groups of people" did it doesn't mean it's fine, whether those groups are connected by nation or religion (the latter being a lot more tenuous as far as being any kind of valid argument for anything).

I'm hesitant to use the term Zionism because it seems to have a somewhat ambiguous meaning with a lot of unhelpful connotations but also I don't understand how you can say you're "against Abrahamic religions" but then say "Jews should have their whole own country", I mean, why? I'm not arguing that Israel shouldn't exist, it does, people live there, it's probably not full of Netanyahus, but isn't that kinda strange? Should we just start dividing the world up by religion, so Christians have their own country, Muslims, etc..? Yes, I know there's historical context with Jews but that is history and frankly irrelevant to the sense of having nations that are explicitly religiously delineated in the modern world. I know there are many more Islamic theocracies and I don't think they're OK either, but Judaism doesn't get to be the one special religion allowed it's whole own country which is specifically The Jewish Country.

Anyway this is all kind of an aside to the main topic because this is a specific regional conflict which really has little to do with the dominant religions of Israel and Palestine, no matter what both the Houthis, Sam Harris, and probably a bunch of other groups of people and specific individuals try to claim. The vast majority of the modern Muslim world, even in those aforementioned theocracies, is not at war with Israel and doesn't want to be, and the vast majority of Jews in the world I'm sure don't consider themselves to be part of a religious crusade against Palestine.
 
I mean... this is just an obvious double standard.
How can the acknowledgement of duality be considered a double standard?

"Double standard" is literally antithetical to the idea of duality in itself. Duality in this case meaning that war and violence is part of human nature just as much as love and peace.
 
How can the acknowledgement of duality be considered a double standard?

"Double standard" is literally antithetical to the idea of duality in itself. Duality in this case meaning that war and violence is part of human nature just as much as love and peace.
Because your standard when it comes to criticism of violence against Israel from the direction of Palestine is that lack of overt criticism is effective endorsement of the perpetrators of that violence, but your standard when it comes to criticism of violence against Palestine from the direction of Israel appears to be "eh, violence isn't ideal but it's a part of human nature."

You presumably don't think that it is not ideal but basically fine that tens of thousands of people have died in Palestine as a direct result of Israeli bombs. So where's the specific criticism of Israel's own moral crimes?
 
I don't understand how you can say you're "against Abrahamic religions" but then say "Jews should have their whole own country", I mean, why?
Good question.

I hate organized religion, but what are my alternative views here? "Fuck them all, I hope they all die on both sides because I don't believe what either think about God?" or the more naive "why can't they both just get along?"

I am not an atheist.

But Muslims own 1/3rd of the world. Jews own... a tiny little area that doesn't even show up on global maps because it's so tiny? Why cannot an established major religion not own Israel, when Christians and Muslims own 90% of the rest of the world? Objectively, I seek fairness, not any religious idea of homeland.

"I hope they both get along" is not not based in reality.

If you want to argue that Jews don't necessarily deserve their own little country to live in (and to defend it with utmost reciprocity), then why has Islam spread around the world and killed millions of dissenting Africans or Asians?

Sure, Islam /=/ Palestine... then in that case, eliminate Hamas, which is an extremist Islamic agenda which got innocent Palestinians into this situation in the first place!

How can you ignore Gaza leadership as their stated own purpose as a fundamental Islamic fucking Jihadists and then discount them from the crimes of Islam throughout history?

I mean, dude I've said this before, this whole conflict and argument can be extrapolated into a convoluted argument on historical politics, human nature, and semantical bullshit. It's all bullshit.

This whole war can be translated into a "blame game" of human atrocities that goes back at least two millenia.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top