Palestine discussion

[Cheshire_Kat]

There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first. I am curious about a few detail concerning the nation of Palestine.

If 'Palestine' is a country, we should be able to answer a few basic questions:


1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What was its underlying economy What did it produce and who did they trade with?
6. What form did its government have?
7. Can you name at least one 'Palestinian' leader before Arafat?
8. Was 'Palestine' ever recognized by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the 'State of Palestine'?
10. What was the most common religion in the 'State of Palestine'?
11. What was the name of its currency?
12. Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the 'Palestinian' currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?
13. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?
14. If we mourn the "slow decline" of the “former proud” country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?
15. Are the "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?
16. Do they really have a genuinely unique ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

 

[Zutroy Tunt]

I don't know but the region probably has at least 3 or 4 powers pushing and pulling in all directions. I guess Jews are more white, so that automatically makes them the evil side in 2023...but that's not racist because the media said so.

 

[deficiT]

Palestine is a region. It's also a state. Although "unrecognized". It has been fought over for thousands of years and has changed hands several times. Between the Jews, the Romans, the Arabs, Western European Crusaders, the Ottomans, and more. It has thus had a lot of different cultures and languages used in it. It was called Palestine before it became Israel. Look on old maps.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

palestine was a roman invention after they cleansed the jews in judea and israel. Palestine is a construct a weapon by antisemities to justify the genocide of jews over thousands of years.

palenstines are just arabs from the rest of the region.

the kingdom of israel existed over 3000 years ago far far before palestine was even a thing.

 

[jpgrdnr]

My hot take as a Westerner is that Palestine is a failed State, its basically a glorified slum of muslims that Israel has invented, because it seems given the war that it basically has no autonomy and much less any form of governance. And it becomes blurred because the government supports Hamas which is a terrorist organization, and you have people in Gaza basically belonging to Hamas, "state" officials or doctors or people you would think be impartial but are actually Hamas.

The other side to is that it seems there is racism within the muslim community where the palestinians are like the chinese of the asian world, no one really likes them. They are like the Iraqis or the Sudanese, just worthless as a people. The Iranians pay lip service to the fact they are muslim or Yemen, or Hezobollah but really they are like the Indian underclass, the Untouchables, people living in garbage just doing forced labor or sorting thru garbage.

And its all wrapped into this warped martyrdom muslim jihad. The problem as I see it is that for all their bluster and talk, the Iranians, the Houthis, Hezobollah are literally nothing more then a bunch of dudes in pyjamas with some rpgs and missiles. Sure they got numbers and are dangerous, but they aren't IDF dangerous with modern strike capabilities capable of just blowing to hell Gaza. And supported by the US, pretty much carte blanche with whatever black op not on the books military and security guarantees the Pentagon has for Israel.

At some point I thought the UN was viable (ok, COVID and the WHO made me understand its basically a joke, and the whole climate thing was ridiculous) but this has shown even moreso than the war in Ukraine how limp dick the UN actually is. Gazans looting trucks enroute to where ever they are going.

And this isn't even the worse part, give it another month or so when people start dying of famine and disease, like widespread. Boggles the mind. I feel it could get worse somehow, if it swings in the wrong direction, Hezobollah directly attacks the border en masse or something.

 

[JGrimez]

There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first. I am curious about a few detail concerning the nation of Palestine.

If 'Palestine' is a country, we should be able to answer a few basic questions:


1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What was its underlying economy What did it produce and who did they trade with?
6. What form did its government have?
7. Can you name at least one 'Palestinian' leader before Arafat?
8. Was 'Palestine' ever recognized by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the 'State of Palestine'?
10. What was the most common religion in the 'State of Palestine'?
11. What was the name of its currency?
12. Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the 'Palestinian' currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?
13. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?
14. If we mourn the "slow decline" of the “former proud” country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?
15. Are the "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?
16. Do they really have a genuinely unique ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

Use the same argument to justify colonialism in other regions.
Australian Aborigines didn't have a state capital - deal with it aborigines. We're OK to kill you and displace you from the lands because you never had a currency.

There was a lot of zionist terrorism going on (Irgun/Haganah) to facilitate the founding of the country
There were original inhabitants of the land that were there - provably - for hundreds of years. None of this "a holy book says a group lived here 2,000 years ago and trust us that we are the ones who have a direct genetic link to them".

Let's check for double standards = what if a powerful group came in to Israel today and kicked everyone out of their homes? Would the dispossessed Israelis just accept it and leave? No, they will likely fight and try to reclaim what was theirs (as they'd be expected to). So don't be surprised if Palestinians prefer to die than to leave and allow Israel to complete its ethnic cleansing.

 

[JGrimez]

There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first.

Or it's because the UN mandated them a state on the same document that justifies the Zionists having a state.
Even the 1948 agreement was not fair in terms of % of land offered.

 

[December Flower]

There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first. I am curious about a few detail concerning the nation of Palestine.

If 'Palestine' is a country, we should be able to answer a few basic questions:


1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What was its underlying economy What did it produce and who did they trade with?
6. What form did its government have?
7. Can you name at least one 'Palestinian' leader before Arafat?
8. Was 'Palestine' ever recognized by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the 'State of Palestine'?
10. What was the most common religion in the 'State of Palestine'?
11. What was the name of its currency?
12. Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the 'Palestinian' currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?
13. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?
14. If we mourn the "slow decline" of the “former proud” country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?
15. Are the "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?
16. Do they really have a genuinely unique ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

1. 1988 or so, Palestinian freedom faction, declaration of independance
2. wait, forget 3 4 5 6 i'm not doing this.
7 is fine: there was no leader before Arafat

you are forgetting this is about religion and about people. The entire region of Palestine had been muslim since 1299, dar-al islam
It was part of the Osmanian Empire until that broke apart after WW1. Great Britain took over the region, and gave it away in 1948 to become the State of Israel
same year Egypt, Jordania, Syria and the Libanon attacked Israel.

But the situation between Israel and Palestine was always a civil war

It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact how much it means to people, if a culture was dominant in a region for 700 years or even longer.
That's why we Bavarians hate being called Germans too, our culture is over 2000 years old - can you even imagine 2000 years? i barely can't and i think about this a lot when i walk through our cities' castles, or freaking Roman bath houses next to Heidi's Alpenstüberl.
we are almost a thousand years older than even the idea of a German nation, pisses us off that when foreigners think of Germany they think of beer, lederhosn, dirndl & oktoberfest - which are all Bavarian culture and have nothing at the slightest to do with German/East-Franconian culture. Worst of all then they're like "What's a Barbarian?" - in the middle of Munich, drinking the beer which water came from our mountains' tits, fuck I hate Oktoberfest

The Muslim world was so wronged and I can absolutely understand their anger. It was their land, no matter if the Osmanian Empire fell, na - fucking England gets the Holy land, and gives it to their mortal enemies. And that didn't make all the people Bri'ish, innit? How would you feel

But on the other hand you always have to understand Israel and the Jewish population. They are deeply traumatized still, and nobody in their right mind would have said no to such a gift.
All they wanted in Israel was peace, and they were attacked from all sides. Literally.

The situation is just too complex to choose a side. it's a horrible situation that has escalated entirely. can we leave it at that?

 

[SvnLyrBrto]

Palestine is a region. It's also a state. Although "unrecognized". It has been fought over for thousands of years and has changed hands several times. Between the Jews, the Romans, the Arabs, Western European Crusaders, the Ottomans, and more. It has thus had a lot of different cultures and languages used in it. It was called Palestine before it became Israel. Look on old maps.

What? No it wasn't. It wasn't called anything before Israel was there, at least not in any legitimately documented historical source. Go back before Israel, and you leave recorded history entirely and descend into biblical mythology, nothing of which I, for one, would take with anything more than the smallest grain of salt. Yeah, the Bible does say there were some people there when the Jews arrived. But that'a religion, not history. It could say the people the Jews found were Hyborians, reptilian overlords, or descendants of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, for all the assumptions of legitimacy or accuracy it deserves. There were certainly no muslims there, this being a few thousand years before islam was even a thing.

 

[deficiT]

What? No it wasn't. It wasn't called anything before Israel was there, at least not in any legitimately documented historical source. Go back before Israel, and you leave recorded history entirely and descend into biblical mythology, nothing of which I, for one, would take with anything more than the smallest grain of salt. Yeah, the Bible does say there were some people there when the Jews arrived. But that'a religion, not history. It could say the people the Jews found were Hyborians, reptilian overlords, or descendants of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, for all the assumptions of legitimacy or accuracy it deserves. There were certainly no muslims there, this being a few thousand years before islam was even a thing.

Israel wasn't a thing until 1948. It was called Palestine beforehand. And yes, there were Muslims, Christians, Jews, all sort of people there. This is hardly before recorded history.

And yeah, biblical history is a thing. Historians agree that a lot of the recorded history in the Bible is worthwhile. Say what you will about the mythological elements of the old and new testaments, but historians look at it as an ancient record of history.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

What? No it wasn't. It wasn't called anything before Israel was there, at least not in any legitimately documented historical source. Go back before Israel, and you leave recorded history entirely and descend into biblical mythology, nothing of which I, for one, would take with anything more than the smallest grain of salt. Yeah, the Bible does say there were some people there when the Jews arrived. But that'a religion, not history. It could say the people the Jews found were Hyborians, reptilian overlords, or descendants of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, for all the assumptions of legitimacy or accuracy it deserves. There were certainly no muslims there, this being a few thousand years before islam was even a thing.

In 132 CE the emperor Hadrian decided to build a Roman colony, Aelia Capitolina, on the site of Jerusalem. The announcement of his plan, as well as his ban on circumcision (revoked later, but only for the Jews), provoked a much more serious uprising, the Second Jewish Revolt, led by Bar Kokhba. It was ruthlessly repressed by Julius Severus; according to certain accounts, almost 1,000 villages were destroyed and more than half a million people killed. In Judaea proper the Jews seem to have been virtually exterminated, but they survived in Galilee, which, like Samaria, appears to have held aloof from the revolt. Tiberias in Galilee became the seat of the Jewish patriarchs. The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina), and, according to Eusebius of Caeseria (Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 6), no Jew was thenceforth allowed to set foot in Jerusalem or the surrounding district. This prohibition apparently was relaxed sometime later to permit Jews to enter Jerusalem one day a year, on a day of mourning called Tisha be-Ava. Although this ban was officially still in force as late as the 4th century ce, there is some evidence that from the Severan period onward (after 193) Jews visited the city more frequently, especially at certain festival times, and even that there may have been some Jews in residence. About the time the Bar Kokhba revolt was crushed (135), Hadrian proceeded to convert Jerusalem into a Greco-Roman city, with a circus, an amphitheatre, baths, and a theatre and with streets conforming to the Roman grid pattern. He also erected temples dedicated to Jupiter and himself (Aelia was his clan name) on the very site of the destroyed Temple of Jerusalem. To repopulate the city, Hadrian apparently brought in Greco-Syrians from the surrounding areas and even perhaps some legionary veterans. The urbanization and Hellenization of Palestine was continued during the reign of the emperor Septimius Severus (193–211 ce), except in Galilee, where the Jewish presence remained strong. New pagan cities were founded in Judaea at Eleutheropolis and Diospolis (formerly Lydda) and at Nicopolis (formerly Emmaus) under one of Severus’s successors, Elagabalus (218–222). In addition, Severus issued a specific ban against Jewish proselytism.

Encyclopedia Britannica

 

[SvnLyrBrto]

Use the same argument to justify colonialism in other regions.
Australian Aborigines didn't have a state capital - deal with it aborigines. We're OK to kill you and displace you from the lands because you never had a currency.

There was a lot of zionist terrorism going on (Irgun/Haganah) to facilitate the founding of the country
There were original inhabitants of the land that were there - provably - for hundreds of years. None of this "a holy book says a group lived here 2,000 years ago and trust us that we are the ones who have a direct genetic link to them".

Let's check for double standards = what if a powerful group came in to Israel today and kicked everyone out of their homes? Would the dispossessed Israelis just accept it and leave? No, they will likely fight and try to reclaim what was theirs (as they'd be expected to). So don't be surprised if Palestinians prefer to die than to leave and allow Israel to complete its ethnic cleansing.

And yet, this very minute I am sitting on land... quite a lot of it and much nicer land than that little strip of the Levant... that used to be part of Mexico. And I don't mean merely a territorial possession of a foreign empire like Israel has been whenever there's not been a nation of Israel; but a contiguous portion of the Estados Unidos Mexicanos itself. But Mexican thugs aren't boiling up out of Tijuana to murder kids attending music festivals in San Diego.

 

[SvnLyrBrto]

In 132 CE the emperor Hadrian decided to build a Roman colony, Aelia Capitolina, on the site of Jerusalem. The announcement of his plan, as well as his ban on circumcision (revoked later, but only for the Jews), provoked a much more serious uprising, the Second Jewish Revolt, led by Bar Kokhba. It was ruthlessly repressed by Julius Severus; according to certain accounts, almost 1,000 villages were destroyed and more than half a million people killed. In Judaea proper the Jews seem to have been virtually exterminated, but they survived in Galilee, which, like Samaria, appears to have held aloof from the revolt. Tiberias in Galilee became the seat of the Jewish patriarchs. The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina), and, according to Eusebius of Caeseria (Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 6), no Jew was thenceforth allowed to set foot in Jerusalem or the surrounding district. This prohibition apparently was relaxed sometime later to permit Jews to enter Jerusalem one day a year, on a day of mourning called Tisha be-Ava. Although this ban was officially still in force as late as the 4th century ce, there is some evidence that from the Severan period onward (after 193) Jews visited the city more frequently, especially at certain festival times, and even that there may have been some Jews in residence. About the time the Bar Kokhba revolt was crushed (135), Hadrian proceeded to convert Jerusalem into a Greco-Roman city, with a circus, an amphitheatre, baths, and a theatre and with streets conforming to the Roman grid pattern. He also erected temples dedicated to Jupiter and himself (Aelia was his clan name) on the very site of the destroyed Temple of Jerusalem. To repopulate the city, Hadrian apparently brought in Greco-Syrians from the surrounding areas and even perhaps some legionary veterans. The urbanization and Hellenization of Palestine was continued during the reign of the emperor Septimius Severus (193–211 ce), except in Galilee, where the Jewish presence remained strong. New pagan cities were founded in Judaea at Eleutheropolis and Diospolis (formerly Lydda) and at Nicopolis (formerly Emmaus) under one of Severus’s successors, Elagabalus (218–222). In addition, Severus issued a specific ban against Jewish proselytism.

Encyclopedia Britannica

Yes, and even the Roman Empire predated Islam by several hundred years. Before the Romans were there, it belonged to the Macedonian (Alexander the Great's) Empire. Before that, it belonged to the Persian Empire. Then you get historic Israel. And farther back than that, you've left history and dropped down to the aforementioned mythology. Any way you try to spin it, "Palestine" has always just been a fiction invented to dispossess the local jews who were the earliest historic owners.

 

[December Flower]

What? No it wasn't. It wasn't called anything before Israel was there, at least not in any legitimately documented historical source. Go back before Israel, and you leave recorded history entirely and descend into biblical mythology, nothing of which I, for one, would take with anything more than the smallest grain of salt. Yeah, the Bible does say there were some people there when the Jews arrived. But that'a religion, not history. It could say the people the Jews found were Hyborians, reptilian overlords, or descendants of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, for all the assumptions of legitimacy or accuracy it deserves. There were certainly no muslims there, this being a few thousand years before islam was even a thing.

Hate to disappoint you. Belonged to the Abbasid Kalif for 200 years. The Emirat was called Shaybanid, and had the borders of today's State of Israel. from around 700-900
Later it belonged to the Fatimid Sultanate of Egypt. who called the region Palästina, since around the year 1000. Then Egypt and the Arabian Empire fought over it for a few hundred years, but always called Palestine after that.

The region used to be Asch'arite, and turned reformed Islam.

Then we did a billion Crusades once the HRE was rebuilt by Otto I.

Then it belonged to either Persia or Arabia

dude it's the Holy Land for the 3 faiths, and you talk about the region like nobody ever had an eye on it. Do you know how fucking many times we tried to conquer this place?! Why do you think Great Britain took hold of it when the Osmanian Empire fell?

Your country is barely as old as my house, and you talk about history like you understand any of it.
There was a world before 1776 you know.

The most wars in history have been started for this place.

 

[Mjäll]

I think the central fact is that inhabited land was taken as war spoils by the british, and then later handed out to their buddies.

I don't believe that any of this is contingent on there being a specific nation called Palestine (nor all the other tongue-in-cheek questions which are mere corollaries to that assumption). It's a matter of land being taken and the demographic consequences of that. Of course the retarded and hopeless doctrine of islam exacerbates such a vindictive situation, but it's not just that.

Your rhetoric will probably damage your cause.

 

[JGrimez]

And yet, this very minute I am sitting on land... quite a lot of it and much nicer land than that little strip of the Levant... that used to be part of Mexico. And I don't mean merely a territorial possession of a foreign empire like Israel has been whenever there's not been a nation of Israel; but a contiguous portion of the Estados Unidos Mexicanos itself. But Mexican thugs aren't boiling up out of Tijuana to murder kids attending music festivals in San Diego.

At least everyone else is honest about taking other people's land.
They don't need to make up a bible story to justify the ethnic cleansing and theft.
This bible story gives this group the title of "chosen people" which involves special treatment and leeway to operate outside of the confines of law and international norms.
They then give themselves the false moral high ground to protect their state by any means necessary.

 

[mal3volent]

They don't need to make up a bible story to justify the ethnic cleansing and theft.

Dude... theft of WHAT?
What did "they" "steal" ?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how history works.
It's not as if Palestine was an actual independent country and the conniving Jews came and "stole" it from them.
But you know this already.

Also what ethnicity is being cleansed?
Let's see if you can answer this time.

 

[December Flower]

Dude... theft of WHAT?
What did "they" "steal" ?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how history works.
It's not as if Palestine was an actual independent country and the conniving Jews came and "stole" it from them.
But you know this already.

Also what ethnicity is being cleansed?
Let's see if you can answer this time.

I mean it's more like the conniving British stole it and gave it to the Jews.
Stole it from Osmania. It's Muslim heritage, or that's the way they see it. I know as far back as when Palestine was called Shaybanid, from around year 500AD. They were Asch'arite in faith, and converted to Islam around year 1000AD, and then the region was called Palestine, never called anything else since then.

It's honestly so much more tenure than we have on the continent of America. We just annexed that, wiped out their culture. The languages are dying out. How fucking sad is that, we didn't even learn their language. That's our level of respect for other cultures.
Ok we're not really at fault for the South, they just got infected by our germs, i think some form of pox? And then we left, but when we came back everyone was dead. Or so is the story. Sounds a bit like the de Bello Gallico to me, but I don't know

Palestine belonged to either Abbasid, Egypt, Persia or Arabia - later ofc Osmania - for at least 1300 years, more like 1500 before the British took it. So I understand why 4 countries attacked Israel the year the Jews moved in. They didn't attack the British, because they just "governed" the land, and promised they would give it back once things have stabilised. Yeah, they gave it back alright, to the Muslims mortal enemies.

Yes the land is considered stolen, by many countries surrounding the Holy land. Because they would have gladly taken it, but alas..the West did.

Guys it's the holy land, you have to understand how important this place is to people. We started like 15 Crusades for it, where 60,000 - 120,000 men would just bash each others heads in every five years (ok part of it was ofc population control by the West. they didn't want to have as many mouths to feed)
It's the most important place in the world, historically.

Yeah there was no State of Palestine. There wasn't a State of Anything when the British annexed the Holy land.
Because Osmania had just fallen, and it takes some time after an EMPIRE falls until things return back to normal.

But Palestine was still a Duchy, for a long time. But after World War 1 ofc it wasn't governed by anyone but the British Empire until they gave it back to the Semites. It was an "Emirate" technically, which is around the grade of a duchy.

And what ethnicity is being cleansed? Dude you have to understand that a large part of Europe belonged to Muslim Empires. The entire South of Spain is Arabic. The cities cores look like you're in Baghdad. They have Arabic names like Almeria. Same with the South of Italy. Sicily was Arabic as well, before the Crusade. The Romans took it once, and we took it again.

This war is a thousand years old. And we still behave like we're in feudal times - at least some of us - and we just need the OK from the Pope to own something, or the OK from God. Yeah God told George Bush to attack Iraq. People were ok with it, I mean if God tells you to do something that sets in motion over half a million civilians deaths and only God knows how many military..

In Germany, if God told any politician to do anything, we'd have their mental health checked asap.

 

[mal3volent]

It's Muslim heritage

Jews were there before Islam existed.

 

[December Flower]

Jews were there before Islam existed.

So? That doesn't deny that it was Egyptian for over 2000 years , until it was taken from them in 1000BC, then the Jewish had it for 500 years, then either Abbasit or Egyptian for 1500 years, then Persian or Arabian for another 500-700 years, then Osmanian

Also what gives us Westerners the right to decide this? We took advantage of a giant Empire falling apart, and just annexed the holy land. The people there were Islamic for a 1000 years, and before that they were Asch'arite for another 1500 years which is a Proto Islamic faith - 2500 years! - versus: "we got this book that says we owned it for 500 years...over 2500 years ago" - who the fuck are we to say "nope, that belongs to Israel now"? I'm just trying to explain to you the Muslim viewpoint.

I know the Western one. "We saw it once, we own it."

By your logic you should give back the United States to the very very few actual Native Americans that still live there. Cuz you did the nasty in the past-y
Which isn't even that long ago.
They were there long before the US existed. Probably long before any of our cultures existed.