Israel is under attack

[mal3volent]

50+ Israel lies in 5 weeks (compiled by @propandco)

not surprised to see this account also promotes a sex trafficker

 

[swilow]

Israel controls Gaza's points of entry. Israel controls their electricity, water food, literally everything that goes in or out. And people can't leave.
If I treated you that way, would you say that I leave you alone? Or that you're my captive prisoner?

Why does Israel exert that level of control though? Seems to me a natural enough thing to do in response to a state that is governed by genocidal terrorists who regularly launch missiles into Israel.

As has been pointed out countless times, Egypt also share a border. They also do not allow freedom of movement from Gaza. Why is that?

But, granted- Israel have absolutely made moral errors with their treatment of Palestinians. The evil irony is that the many of the kibbutz attacked were comprised of left wing Israelis who criticised Israels political and military strategy regarding Gaza and the occupation. Some of these people would transport sick residents of Gaza into Israel for medical treatment. What thanks did they get? Some were burnt alive, others were tortured, raped, and then burnt alive. You can't justify that by pointing to the errors of a monolithic state. It's not about that. Hamas want to kill Jews regardless of whether they are associated with oppression or not. I could accept your arguments were it simply military assets being targeted by Hamas. It isn't, though. It was largely people who were ostensibly and practically sympathetic with them.

You have stated over and over your mistrust for the Jews. Hence, you're motivated to defend their enemies. Not falling for this faux concern for the Palestinians you're exhibiting when it's actually just the same barely veiled antisemitism you've been pushing for years.

 

[mal3volent]

Not falling for this faux concern for the Palestinians you're exhibiting when it's actually just the same barely veiled antisemitism you've been pushing for years.

me neither. I mean, this is the guy who once said:

The fact is blacks really are more likely to engage in criminal behavior than whites. So it's natural for whites to be suspicious and fearful of blacks.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Dozens of infractions over many years of blatant racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism.

These people only have opinions that further their overall worldview aka their conspiracy theories. That is their only motivation.

 

[mal3volent]

@someguyontheinternet ^ this is the guy you choose to commiserate with ? You have a good moral compass, clearly.

 

[-=SS=-]

lol, your closet racism might be peeking through. Which countries have the highest violent crime rates? El Salvador, US Virgin Islands, Jamaica, Lesotho, Honduras, Belize, Venezuela, etc. So if you believe that the Arab world is so behind, then what about the groups/races that compromise these countries? In the US, which group is committing more violence? Muslims or Blacks? I'm actually surprised that you'd attempt to make this point. Many Muslim countries are incredibly safe in terms of social crime and rates of violence which are very low. So what you're saying is provably false, arguably bigoted and IMO it's part of the tactic of the attempted dehumanization of the Palestinians in order to justify the atrocities being committed against them.

What even is this nonsense, bringing in completely different contexts to try and dilute what is self evident in the actual context under discussion. Violent crime in countries due to economic conditions etc is not the same as having culturally ingrained corporal punishment that involves beheading and stoning people to death. Saudi Arabia is an incredibly prosperous country now, yet Sharia Law is still very much a part of their system that permits such barbarism under the guise of justice. Iran is another prosperous Arab state that similarly acts the same way, and there's several others. Sharia law is medieval barbarism, and all the oil funded techno playgrounds in the middle east don't disguise it.

Social crime and violence tends to be low in nations that rule with a bloody iron fist. Would you like me to explain why?

And dehumanization. Listen, the majority of Gazan's voted for Hamas. Many people on the marches in Western countries recently don't give one fuck about the innocent Israeli citizens who were butchered and don't care about the hostages either. These people do a fine job of dehumanization on their own.

 

[-=SS=-]

You might get something out of this, JGrimez.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

@someguyontheinternet ^ this is the guy you choose to commiserate with ? You have a good moral compass, clearly.

A broken clock is right twice a day. The way the entire Palestine situation is perceived and by which sides of the political spectrum is definitely odd on the face and there are people who are against Israel just because "Jews bad" and some of them have also said other incredibly racist things. I think the situation needs to be examined with more nuance than that though

And dehumanization. Listen, the majority of Gazan's voted for Hamas. Many people on the marches in Western countries recently don't give one fuck about the innocent Israeli citizens who were butchered and don't care about the hostages either. These people do a fine job of dehumanization on their own.

The majority of Gazans are children, they weren't even alive in 2005 get your head out of your ass

That's on top of only 44% of the people who actually voted, voted for Hamas. And Hamas was not nearly as extremist and militant back then, they tried to come off as more moderate. You're just making excuses for ethnic cleansing and killing children yet again

People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here's Why It Isn't That Simple

As violence intensifies in Gaza and Israel, claims about Hamas' place in Gaza's electoral history are circulating without important context.

www.snopes.com

 

[JGrimez]

I feel just as badly for the innocent Palestinians killed. But this was brought on by the brutality of Hamas.

No, you don't. You're contradicting yourself.
You're saying that because Hamas killed civilians then it's OK to kill civilians.
And if you want to talk brutal, let's talk bombing hospitals.

Casualties in a justified war,

A war where one side breaks international law and commits war crimes against innocents, is in your opinion, a justified war....

 

[JGrimez]

Why does Israel exert that level of control though?

To answer that question you'd have to dig into the history of why things are the way they are, and I don't know if you guys want to do that (you should).

As has been pointed out countless times, Egypt also share a border. They also do not allow freedom of movement from Gaza. Why is that?

Because the Israeli state has consistently pushed them off and away further from their direct homelands. Egypt doesn't wish to nor should be obligated to deal with a problem that Israel created, and taking them all into Egypt doesn't fix the problem (well, it does for the Israelis).

But, granted- Israel have absolutely made moral errors with their treatment of Palestinians.

That's good that you admit it but mentioning it in passing is understating the importance and relevance of it in regards to what's happening now.

The evil irony is that the many of the kibbutz attacked were comprised of left wing Israelis who criticised Israels political and military strategy regarding Gaza and the occupation. Some of these people would transport sick residents of Gaza into Israel for medical treatment. What thanks did they get? Some were burnt alive, others were tortured, raped, and then burnt alive. You can't justify that by pointing to the errors of a monolithic state.

The only people justifying murder are the ones excusing the indiscriminate bombings by the IDF. We can all agree that terrorists act like animals and their behavior is reprehensible - but then how can people justify a nation-state acting the same way?

The Israeli military deployed white phosphorus, a controversial and lethal chemical substance, in its war against Hamas, putting civilians at risk of life-threatening burns, according to the Human Rights Watch (HRW). Under the United Nation’s Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, it is illegal to drop incendiary weapons on “concentrations of civilians.”

It's not about that. Hamas want to kill Jews regardless of whether they are associated with oppression or not.

No they don't? Their struggle is against the Israeli state. You'll find that the vast majority of Arabs/Muslims who have beef with Israel do not blame all Jews. They specifically blame the Zionist state's treatment of the Palestinians who were living on the land known as Israel before it became a state in 1948. Hamas want their homeland back, they don't give a crap about Jews praying in Europe.

I could accept your arguments were it simply military assets being targeted by Hamas. It isn't, though. It was largely people who were ostensibly and practically sympathetic with them.

I am not defending or justifying Hamas. Just pointing out that the Israeli government LET them come across the border and kill people.
If I have a deadly dog in a cage, you walk past, I open the cage the dog runs out and kills you - who is to blame for the murder?

And those bleeding-heart lefty Jews that you speak of - the Israeli government detests them just as much as the Palestinians.

You have stated over and over your mistrust for the Jews.

I never said that. I've just been pointing out for years that there is an extremely powerful criminal mafia that exerts vast influence across many fields and that the members are Jewish.
They are so powerful in fact, that to even notice them makes people yell at you, call you a conspiracy loon and tell you go to into a different sub-forum.
Everyone is aware of ethnic mafias. But if someone was trying to take down the mob nobody would say that they distrust Italians.

Hence, you're motivated to defend their enemies. Not falling for this faux concern for the Palestinians you're exhibiting when it's actually just the same barely veiled antisemitism you've been pushing for years.

I spend a lot of time in Israel. I love the language and I love the culture. I have very close family members who live there. I'm ethnically Jewish, I'm proud to be Jewish and the vast majority of Jewish people that I know are wonderful, caring people. I've even had my grandmother's family be taken by Nazis in WW2. To suggest that I'm an antisemite reaches such levels of blatant absurdity that it makes me question the grip on reality of the person saying it. Your transparent tricks can't work on me. BTW, have you bothered to watch some of the images that are coming out of Gaza? I had to stop watching them because there's only so many injured children I can look at. To say that I have faux-concern for innocents because I apparently want to bolster my enemies is again, more insanity.

And I see that some of us are unable to separate Judaism from Atheistic Zionism.
Too advanced a concept for some I guess.

 

[JGrimez]

me neither. I mean, this is the guy who once said:

You're really getting desperate now, I see.
Digging through other threads and taking stuff out of context, pathetic.
You're also an admin, who was telling me my relevant posts were off-topic, but this isn't?
Hypocritical, unprofessional, immature.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Dozens of infractions over many years of blatant racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism.

Dozens of infractions for telling the truth in a forum staffed by some liars.
The truth is not politically correct. Deal with it.

These people only have opinions that further their overall worldview aka their conspiracy theories. That is their only motivation.

My opinion is that Israel should be more willing to negotiate with the population that they displaced and stop killing their children.
My opinion is that EVERY state should follow international law and adhere to the Geneva Convention.
Do you disagree?

 

[JGrimez]

What even is this nonsense, bringing in completely different contexts to try and dilute what is self evident in the actual context under discussion. Violent crime in countries due to economic conditions etc is not the same as having culturally ingrained corporal punishment that involves beheading and stoning people to death. Saudi Arabia is an incredibly prosperous country now, yet Sharia Law is still very much a part of their system that permits such barbarism under the guise of justice. Iran is another prosperous Arab state that similarly acts the same way, and there's several others. Sharia law is medieval barbarism, and all the oil funded techno playgrounds in the middle east don't disguise it.

Social crime and violence tends to be low in nations that rule with a bloody iron fist. Would you like me to explain why?

And also highlight the countries where social crime and violence is low in nations that do not rule with an iron fist.
My response was to his arguably racist comment regarding Muslims. Killing an innocent person is illegal under Muslim law.

 

[-=SS=-]

My opinion is that Israel should be more willing to negotiate with the population that they displaced and stop killing their children.

You are aware that the Palestinian's rejected the two state solution, multiple times, right from the very beginning of the inception of Israel as a state? If you are aware of that, then what does your statement even mean in light of this - how much more willing can you expect than actually trying, on multiple occasions, to reach an amicable solution over the land?

Hamas want their homeland back

The history of the region does not favour this interpretation at all. Islam didn't even exist until the middle of the first millennium so the claims of land ownership don't even make sense from that perspective, but regardless of that the land never belonged to the 'Palestinian's' either because there never was 'Palestine' as an entity but just land that people were living upon that passed from control under the Ottoman empire to the British.

No other group of people demands this special treatment regarding land. They rejected an amicable two state solution, the Arabs started a war and lost, and from that point these people lost all right to complain about it - you start a war, you lose ground, that ground becomes territory of the victorious.. that's how it works.

The overwhelming majority of Hamas and peoples alive today have no direct connection with the initial displacement either. It is nothing more than a butthurt ego crusade now and everyone can see it apart from the Muslims who refuse to accept that Islam isn't top dog. It rubs them up the wrong way because it directly conflicts with the political ideology that is Islam. It's not about land, justice, or making something better.

 

[mal3volent]

A war where one side breaks international law and commits war crimes against innocents

oh ONE SIDE did that huh? Still denying the Hamas attacks despite all the evidence?

And if you want to talk brutal, let's talk bombing hospitals.

you mean the one that the IDF didn't bomb, that was actually a parking lot hit by a Hamas rocket? Or the ones with the tunnels underneath where there are videos of terrorists congregating with doctors following the attack?

I spend a lot of time in Israel. I love the language and I love the culture. I have very close family members who live there. I'm ethnically Jewish, I'm proud to be Jewish and the vast majority of Jewish people that I know are wonderful, caring people. I've even had my grandmother's family be taken by Nazis in WW2. To suggest that I'm an antisemite reaches such levels of blatant absurdity that it makes me question the grip on reality of the person saying it. Your transparent tricks can't work on me. BTW, have you bothered to watch some of the images that are coming out of Gaza? I had to stop watching them because there's only so many injured children I can look at. To say that I have faux-concern for innocents because I apparently want to bolster my enemies is again, more insanity.

And I see that some of us are unable to separate Judaism from Atheistic Zionism.

I suspect you lean on this a lot. Well you have ever since you've been here on BL that I can recall. We all have lineages and histories but that doesn't entirely define who we are or preclude us from having beliefs that fundamentally go against what we are. Just look at someone like Jesse Lee Peterson for example , a black man who "thanks God for slavery". Sounds crazy right? But holding that view furthers his overall ideological goals which he considers more important .

You're really getting desperate now, I see.
Digging through other threads and taking stuff out of context, pathetic.
You're also an admin, who was telling me my relevant posts were off-topic, but this isn't?
Hypocritical, unprofessional, immature.

Would you rather me just delete all your off topic posts and infract you? You'll cry either way. This thread was always going to probably end up in the Dive so it's whatever at this point. It's one of those threads that just becomes a huge headache because there are a few of us talking reasonably then a steady stream of newcomers who don't bother catching up with the thread and just recite the same old talking points that have already been addressed ten times.

And on the quote, I didn't have to do much digging. I remembered it and knew where to look. But I could have just as easily used a dozen other quotes by you. It's just funny that far right errr, I mean, centrist folks like you and Droppers are getting in bed with avowed Marxists over this issue. It truly is remarkable and gives me a little tinge of joy in all this darkness.

My opinion is that Israel should be more willing to negotiate with the population that they displaced and stop killing their children.
My opinion is that EVERY state should follow international law and adhere to the Geneva Convention.
Do you disagree?

I love how you didn't even attempt to respond to all the evidence I posted which you said didn't exist.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

You are aware that the Palestinian's rejected the two state solution, multiple times, right from the very beginning of the inception of Israel as a state? If you are aware of that, then what does your statement even mean in light of this - how much more willing can you expect than actually trying, on multiple occasions, to reach an amicable solution over the land?

The history of the region does not favour this interpretation at all. Islam didn't even exist until the middle of the first millennium so the claims of land ownership don't even make sense from that perspective, but regardless of that the land never belonged to the 'Palestinian's' either because there never was 'Palestine' as an entity but just land that people were living upon that passed from control under the Ottoman empire to the British.

No other group of people demands this special treatment regarding land. They rejected an amicable two state solution, the Arabs started a war and lost, and from that point these people lost all right to complain about it - you start a war, you lose ground, that ground becomes territory of the victorious.. that's how it works.

The overwhelming majority of Hamas and peoples alive today have no direct connection with the initial displacement either. It is nothing more than a butthurt ego crusade now and everyone can see it apart from the Muslims who refuse to accept that Islam isn't top dog. It rubs them up the wrong way because it directly conflicts with the political ideology that is Islam. It's not about land, justice, or making something better.

You're mischaracterizing the negotiations. Just be cause Arafat was a clown doesn't mean that Palestinians in general rejected two state

"
But what I subsequently learned - about 18 months ago, I had a dinner with a former Palestinian negotiator who'd been part of the delegation. He said the whole Palestinian delegation had decided among themselves they should accept it. They went back to Arafat, and Arafat said no. I subsequently heard from another Palestinian on that delegation who said Arafat thought he could still do a better deal under Bush because he thought maybe Bush will be even more forthcoming.

And the struggle is what defined Arafat. He was prepared to do limited deals because they didn't require him to do something definitive. Arafat was someone who never closed doors, never closed options. The idea of ending the conflict was a step that was too far for him. In retrospect, I think we should have gone for a less ambitious approach and created the circumstances so his successor could have done something that he wasn't up to doing."

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207243717/23-years-ago-israelis-and-palestinians-were-talking-about-a-two-state-solution

 

[swilow]

To answer that question you'd have to dig into the history of why things are the way they are, and I don't know if you guys want to do that (you should).

I have. You always assume you're talking to stupid ignorant people, and only you know the truth. Honestly, it makes talking to you fucking tedious as hell.

No they don't? Their struggle is against the Israeli state.

The arabs massacred the Jews before there was a Jewish state. They drove out the Jews who had lived in Hebron for maybe 1000 years. Hezbollah, a Lebanese terrorist group, regularly bomb Israel. Muhammad himself beheaded Jews. You're in denial if you do not think that some sects of Islam have a deep ethnic hatred of Jews.

f I have a deadly dog in a cage, you walk past, I open the cage the dog runs out and kills you - who is to blame for the murder?

But you are also saying that Israel is unethical for building the cage itself. You've claimed that the existence of the cage is why the dog is so deadly. You've claimed that Israel not securing the animal makes it blameless for attacking. Okay, fine. There is of course gross incompetence from the Israeli intelligence and military, but that doesn't mean that Hamas are not responsible for what they did or that Israel don't have a moral duty and indeed the right as an established, sovereign nation, to respond

 

[JGrimez]

You are aware that the Palestinian's rejected the two state solution, multiple times, right from the very beginning of the inception of Israel as a state? If you are aware of that, then what does your statement even mean in light of this - how much more willing can you expect than actually trying, on multiple occasions, to reach an amicable solution over the land?

That would be like me coming into your house, splitting it in 2 and asking if you're OK with the two-house solution.
A lot has changed since then. So it's past time to renegotiate because this current arrangement is not tenable.
The previous deals offered were never as fair as you're trying to imply - and the Israelis are much less interested in a fair solution.

The history of the region does not favour this interpretation at all. Islam didn't even exist until the middle of the first millennium so the claims of land ownership don't even make sense from that perspective, but regardless of that the land never belonged to the 'Palestinian's' either because there never was 'Palestine' as an entity but just land that people were living upon that passed from control under the Ottoman empire to the British.

Are you familiar with the Haganah or the Irgun? Terrorist organisations instrumental in the founding of Israel. Some of their members ended up being the leaders of the Israeli state.
Albert Einstein even wrote a letter to the New York Times warning about future-PM Menachem Begin and his party which he compared to the "Nazi and Fascist parties".
People say there was never a country called "Palestine" well there was never a country called "Israel" there either.
In fact Jewish people from anywhere, with zero ties to the land or any shared ethnicity, can freely emigrate to Israel.

BTW I believe Israel's claim to the land is based on a book that also says the Earth is 6,000 years old. Religious history is not the same as recorded history.

 

[JGrimez]

oh ONE SIDE did that huh? Still denying the Hamas attacks despite all the evidence?

Palestinians aren't allowed a state or military so cannot break international law.
It's basically a US-backed super-military, fueled by either godless atheists or racial supremacists - against a bunch of refugees.
And then when some of the refugees fight back you call them terrorists and say the entire camp can be killed.

you mean the one that the IDF didn't bomb, that was actually a parking lot hit by a Hamas rocket? Or the ones with the tunnels underneath where there are videos of terrorists congregating with doctors following the attack?

IDF have bombed hospitals before.
Former Israeli-PM Ehud Barak admitted it was Israel that built the tunnels under al-Shifa hospital.

I suspect you lean on this a lot. Well you have ever since you've been here on BL that I can recall. We all have lineages and histories but that doesn't entirely define who we are or preclude us from having beliefs that fundamentally go against what we are. Just look at someone like Jesse Lee Peterson for example , a black man who "thanks God for slavery". Sounds crazy right? But holding that view furthers his overall ideological goals which he considers more important .

Are you saying that Jewish people all need to have the same opinions?
If I'm only ever talking about Jews who are committing crimes, and not innocent Jews, then I'm talking about criminals.
My goal is to keep criminals out of governments.
Apparently it's a fucking conspiracy theory that some Jews commit crimes

Would you rather me just delete all your off topic posts and infract you? You'll cry either way. This thread was always going to probably end up in the Dive so it's whatever at this point. It's one of those threads that just becomes a huge headache because there are a few of us talking reasonably then a steady stream of newcomers who don't bother catching up with the thread and just recite the same old talking points that have already been addressed ten times.

None of my posts here are off-topic. They simply rustle the jimmies of anyone who still doesn't want to face the facts.

It's just funny that far right errr, I mean, centrist folks like you and Droppers are getting in bed with avowed Marxists over this issue. It truly is remarkable and gives me a little tinge of joy in all this darkness.

Sometimes well-meaning people get misled by a destructive ideology, and sometimes bad people align to co-opt a beneficial ideology.
What we and said Marxists have in common is CONSCIENCE, which transcends political ideology.
We can look at something and just know that it's wrong, and call it out.
Without having to worry about whether it's one of our tribe's approved talking points.

 

[JGrimez]

I have. You always assume you're talking to stupid ignorant people, and only you know the truth. Honestly, it makes talking to you fucking tedious as hell.

I wasn't implying ignorance, I was implying a fear of discussing taboo subjects.

The arabs massacred the Jews before there was a Jewish state. They drove out the Jews who had lived in Hebron for maybe 1000 years. Hezbollah, a Lebanese terrorist group, regularly bomb Israel. Muhammad himself beheaded Jews. You're in denial if you do not think that some sects of Islam have a deep ethnic hatred of Jews.

No shit. We were talking about Hamas. In their charter it states that are against Israel. Doesn't state war to all Jews.
Many Jews also have deep ethnic hatred of Arabs.

but that doesn't mean that Hamas are not responsible for what they did or that Israel don't have a moral duty and indeed the right as an established, sovereign nation, to respond

Sorry but I don't believe you ever have a moral duty to use collective punishment to murder innocent children.
You have a moral duty to come to a fair negotiation.

 

[swilow]

You have a moral duty to come to a fair negotiation.

What would that look like? I'm just not sure how Israel would negotiate with a group that wants it to cease existence.

 

[JGrimez]

What would that look like? I'm just not sure how Israel would negotiate with a group that wants it to cease existence.

The Israeli govt want the Palestinians to cease existence (along with many of the people there, I know this for a fact).

The first step is to change the people who are doing negotiations to people who do not want to eliminate the other side. On both sides. Stop blaming just one side. Take accountability for actions. Stop lying. Follow international law. Dismantle the illegal settlements. That would be a good start.