One month heroin free - I'm done!

[deficiT]

Feel free to discuss whatever points you have at length, just refrain from inflammatory comments, name calling, and the like please.

 

[Jen X]

If you even try to dabble I would bet all my savings on a total relapse.

The weekend heroin user is mostly a fantasy of our imaginations. Besides it’s a shitty drug to use on special occasions and when you’re not an addict to it and you use it in that fashion it’s extremely underwhelming and a let down.

It’s one of those drugs that’s better when you’re full blown addicted and dependent on it.

I would stay clean completely. Wait until you get older and your body starts hurting all the time then it gets really hard not to go back. I’d enjoy whatever youth you have left not being on dope

Very true, i got sober and tried to use for one day, that lasted until i ran out and am now dopesick til thursday

 

[LucidSDreamr]

their only use on earth is for the elderly/dying.

I have to add because this statement becoming accepted is causing a lot of suicides these days.

You see this picture. It is someone with a broken neck with a disc/bone exploded into their spinal cord.

They could be 20 years old, they are not dying and have AT LEAST several years to decades of permanent severe pain and disablement to live with the rest of their life.

opioids are more than warranted even if the patient is 15 and even ESPECIALLY if they are not going to die . And this public perception that opioids are only for ppl dying of cancer becoming pervasive in law enforcement and even the medical world is alamrming.

Y’all better drive save and make sure to never get a disease or traumatic injury resulting in permanent chronic pain. It could happen to anyone every single time you get behind the wheel of a car but nobody care about the loss of access to pain medicine until it’s them figuring out how to find a gun or fentanyl…whichever they can get their hands on first to end their pain.

 

[wirkdy]

wait until you get older and your body starts hurting all the time then it gets really hard not to go back. I’d enjoy whatever youth you have left not being on dope

you think I'm in my 20's? not even in my 30's anymore, how old would that be for your idea?

 

[wirkdy]

I keep having nostalgic, tragic and sad moments I wanna cry, the targin pills I took saturday night made me to heaven, I don't really wanna snort heroin again maybe with opioids pills I can manage it better w/o returning a daily user, today I shopped around pharmacies and tried to get oxy w/o prescription (I know where to get outside pharmacies but it's to fkin expensive there), what a fucking world NOBODY sold it to me! (little sarcasm intended)

 

[Jen X]

Pills will cause a relapse, i get morphine and hydro morph and relapsed and started slamming them. I'm out til Thursday and counting the days. I would grab fent crazy enough but i'd lose my script.
The only way to stay clean is take nothing, hard for me i have MS. But as my doc said you're ready to quit when the thought of them turns your stomach. I'm trying to go 6 months taking nothing but the pain gets to unbearable and i take more then needed

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I keep having nostalgic, tragic and sad moments I wanna cry, the targin pills I took saturday night made me to heaven, I don't really wanna snort heroin again maybe with opioids pills I can manage it better w/o returning a daily user, today I shopped around pharmacies and tried to get oxy w/o prescription (I know where to get outside pharmacies but it's to fkin expensive there), what a fucking world NOBODY sold it to me! (little sarcasm intended)

Sounds like it was pointless to even quit. Better to just stay hooked than go through a withdrawal for no reason.

What country is this also where ppl sell shit outside of pharmacies?

 

[wirkdy]

other option would be online not in the country which is in west eu

 

[Mjäll]

That's a dangerous illusion in my opinion. Opioid addiction doesn't have psychological root causes, but entirely neurobiological ones, which explains why no amount of psychotherapy helps to stay clean. Eventually everyone relapses. Even the most successful with clear cut goals do.

I, like the neuroscientist Carl Hart, completely disagree with the brain disease model of addiction. I believe opioid addiction is the direct result of the body/brain trying to compensate the lack of endogenous opioid peptide production in the synaptic clefts, by taking them exogenously. It is therefore an act of self-medication and those who are fighting against this "addiction" are actually fighting against their brain's legitimate attempt to achieve a neurochemical balance that unfortunately isn't naturally there (there is a reason why so many people who try opioids and become future addicts say how this must be how normal people feel like). You're essentially fighting against nature which is bound to fail. I believe our entire approach to addiction is completely wrong.

The above mentioned reason is why I have decided to go to a maintenance clinic instead of trying to abstain and live a sober life, because I have realized that what we call "addiction" is my body's reaction to achieve and maintain neurochemical balance and therefore I have decided, as a conscious act of self-love, to allow my body to fix what isn't naturally there. It's a COMPLETELY different philosophy and approach to "addiction" (I hate this word. Let's call each other opiophiles instead) and since it is so alien to what we as a society have been taught, this approach doesn't find any support in medicine, therapy and much less the ignorant masses.

So next time, you the reader, are about to swallow that oxy pill of yours, snort another line, or give yourself the next shot, do it from this perspective of self-love instead of self-disgust. Do it as an act of self-care because that is what it really is.

It could be psychological and neurological at the same time. Psychological events have neural consequences. Chronic exogenous supply of neurotransmitters could eliminate the homeostatic drive toward slow therapeutic reset - or stunt growth, or prevent healing of trauma, if you will. We all have psychological pain and endogenous opioids are obviously implicated in regulation of mood and psychological health.

Do you have any source on the claim that some humans need exogenous opioids due to some "purely biological" condition impervious to psychological events and therapy?

Feel free to use any drug. I think "because i want to" is the supreme reason for drug use. Why would you need another reason? How did the thought appear that pleasure needs justification or argument?

 

[Hexenstahl]

It could be psychological and neurological at the same time.

I phrased that sentence badly. Originally I wanted to say that it is primarily neurobiological in cause and less psychological.

Psychological events have neural consequences

To a certain extent.

Chronic exogenous supply of neurotransmitters could eliminate the homeostatic drive toward slow therapeutic reset - or stunt growth, or prevent healing of trauma

I have made pretty good therapeutic progress, not despite, but BECAUSE I am using opioids chronically since more than 12 years.

Do you have any source on the claim that some humans need exogenous opioids

It was first proposed by Dr. Christian Rätsch in one of his interviews. He was citing a white paper from the molecular biology department of some US based university which I can't remember.
But it also becomes clear when you use inductive reasoning after realizing some people have a lack of endogenous opioid peptide production due to, perhaps genetic factors, or some dysregulation leading to insufficient processing. The body wants to compensate that lack and the only other source is exogenous, and so it manifests itself as a craving for opioid drugs. It is not 100% proven fact, but an hypothesis I must say. Just like the brain disease model of addiction is an hypothesis. I just don't believe the latter is a reasonable one. The former makes much more sense to me.

I really need to finish that book "Opioids in mental illness" because it has some really good arguments in favor of its therapeutic use.

I think "because i want to" is the supreme reason for drug use.

That is simplistic thinking. It manifests itself as "I just wanna use it", but what is truly behind that impulse?

How did the thought appear that pleasure needs justification or argument?

I don't need any justification to use opioids. I used them long before I had any "justifying" reason...

 

[Mjäll]

I phrased that sentence badly. Originally I wanted to say that it is primarily neurobiological in cause and less psychological.


To a certain extent.


I have made pretty good therapeutic progress, not despite, but BECAUSE I am using opioids chronically since more than 12 years.


It was first proposed by Dr. Christian Rätsch in one of his interviews. He was citing a white paper from the molecular biology department of some US based university which I can't remember.
But it also becomes clear when you use inductive reasoning after realizing some people have a lack of endogenous opioid peptide production due to, perhaps genetic factors, or some dysregulation leading to insufficient processing. The body wants to compensate that lack and the only other source is exogenous, and so it manifests itself as a craving for opioid drugs. It is not 100% proven fact, but an hypothesis I must say. Just like the brain disease model of addiction is an hypothesis. I just don't believe the latter is a reasonable one. The former makes much more sense to me.

I really need to finish that book "Opioids in mental illness" because it has some really good arguments in favor of its therapeutic use.


That is simplistic thinking. It manifests itself as "I just wanna use it", but what is truly behind that impulse?


I don't need any justification to use opioids. I used them long before I had any "justifying" reason...

Well, i don't claim authority on your personal case. I was just addressing some things in your line of reasoning. Your hypothesis is entirely possible, but i don't think other possibilities may be excluded. That is, the possibility that opioid abstinence could have benefits in people who have cravings for opioids. If i'm reading you correctly, you do indirectly acknowledge this possibility by admitting not to be 100 % sure of your hypothesis.

Believe it or not, this comes from a place of care. Take or leave.

 

[Hexenstahl]

Your hypothesis is entirely possible, but i don't think other possibilities may be excluded.

Oh absolutely. I'm a scientist at heart. I'm always open for change. If someone can present an hypothesis that I find more convincing or can give me evidence that falsifies my hypothesis, then I am willing to change my stance immediately.

If i'm reading you correctly, you do indirectly acknowledge this possibility by admitting not to be 100 % sure of your hypothesis.

You are correct. It is an hypothesis, not even a theory. Even if it was a theory, it still wouldn't be proven. Actually, a lot of things in neurology are based on axiomatic assumptions, which we take for granted simply because the proposed model makes sense at this point in time, but may be revised once sufficient data exists to falsify that assumption. If I remember correctly @TheUltimateFixx has actually a degree in neurology and could perhaps enlighten us more on this issue. What do you think: might the gravitation towards opioids be actually caused by a lack of endogenous opioid peptide production, or maybe due to a dysregulation in the nerve signalling leading to insufficient amounts of endogenous opioids being released out of the synaptic clefts, or is it entirely psychological? Or is it maybe a mix of both?

Believe it or not, this comes from a place of care.

I believe you.

 

[Mjäll]

Oh absolutely. I'm a scientist at heart. I'm always open for change. If someone can present an hypothesis that I find more convincing or can give me evidence that falsifies my hypothesis, then I am willing to change my stance immediately.


You are correct. It is an hypothesis, not even a theory. Even if it was a theory, it still wouldn't be proven. Actually, a lot of things in neurology are based on axiomatic assumptions, which we take for granted simply because the proposed model makes sense at this point in time, but may be revised once sufficient data exists to falsify that assumption. If I remember correctly @TheUltimateFixx has actually a degree in neurology and could perhaps enlighten us more on this issue. What do you think: might the gravitation towards opioids be actually caused by a lack of endogenous opioid peptide production, or maybe due to a dysregulation in the nerve signalling leading to insufficient amounts of endogenous opioids being released out of the synaptic clefts, or is it entirely psychological? Or is it maybe a mix of both?


I believe you.

Great to hear!

My main hypothesis would be that psychological trauma causes a deficiency in endogenous neurotransmitter production - a neurological mediator of feeling left out, abandoned, disrespected, maltreated or assaulted (as opposed to adequate or peak levels being a mediator of psychosocial health). I believe that if we were to investigate the brains of people with a harsh life who seem anxious, indifferent or low energy, we may find a lack of intrinsic opioid signalling precisely because they haven't had the adequate opportunities to be well as human persons and social creatures. I also think these people are highly susceptible to opioid use and addiction. That's not something to judge. But i don't think the quest for sober health is to be dismissed either. Maybe science will clarify that restoring a damaged endogenous opioid signalling is impossible. But for now, i think there is merit to this idea of struggle and growth as opposed to band-aid approach. Again, no judgment. There might even be a golden mean, balancing struggle with occasional relief.

For instance, i personally had mild opioid withdrawal symptoms before even trying kratom (the only one i bother with) and these symptoms seem to overlap with certain anxieties which have been generated by life events. There is also a personality aspect of course. Some people like me are more sensitive.

 

[Hexenstahl]

Great to hear!

My main hypothesis would be that psychological trauma causes a deficiency in endogenous neurotransmitter production - a neurological mediator of feeling left out, abandoned, disrespected, maltreated or assaulted (as opposed to adequate or peak levels being a mediator of psychosocial health). I believe that if we were to investigate the brains of people with a harsh life who seem anxious, indifferent or low energy, we may find a lack of intrinsic opioid signalling precisely because they haven't had the adequate opportunities to be well as human persons and social creatures. I also think these people are highly susceptible to opioid use and addiction. That's not something to judge. But i don't think the quest for sober health is to be dismissed either. Maybe science will clarify that restoring a damaged endogenous opioid signalling is impossible. But for now, i think there is merit to this idea of struggle and growth as opposed to band-aid approach. Again, no judgment. There might even be a golden mean, balancing struggle with occasional relief.

For instance, i personally had mild opioid withdrawal symptoms before even trying kratom (the only one i bother with) and these symptoms seem to overlap with certain anxieties which have been generated by life events. There is also a personality aspect of course. Some people like me are more sensitive.

That is quite an interesting point of view I must say. Your last paragraph is something I'm reading for the first time. An owd without even being physically dependent on opioids? How is that possible? You must have been somehow hooked on your own body's opioids and then somehow the amount produced or bound to the receptors must have fallen for wd to happen...if that is even possible. You'd be a scientific wonder! In the negative sense unfortunately, but still a scientific wonder nonetheless.

I will consider your hypothesis after @TheUltimateFixx who is an expert on this topic has given me his opinion on this. Depending on which one of these hypotheses he finds more likely, I'm going to change my stance because I only have a layman understanding of neurology. I'm more into chemistry actually, but am...hehe...you could say minoring in neuropharmacology in my free time ^^
Even when it comes to chemistry I am veeeeery far from being an expert. That's why AlsoTapered is here. I consider him my mentor actually. I have learned a lot from him in our private conversations and his book recommendations have opened a whole new world to me. One day I want to become as knowledgeable as he is...which is perhaps too optimistic because he is a lot more intelligent and talented than I am lol.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

And why if I may ask?

Because if your love yourself you don’t change your entire life and how you feel by injecting pills meant for oral administration into your forearm.

Ppl that practice self love treat themselves how they would treat their child or their spouse. Nobody would encourage someone they love to shoot oxy pills into their veins.

Not to mention what you’re saying goes against the entire consensus of of the medical, scientific, recovery, and therapy community.

 

[deficiT]

Because if your love yourself you don’t change your entire life and how you feel by injecting pills meant for oral administration into your forearm.

Ppl that practice self love treat themselves how they would treat their child or their spouse. Nobody would encourage someone they love to shoot oxy pills into their veins.

Not to mention what you’re saying goes against the entire consensus of of the medical, scientific, recovery, and therapy community.

 

[Hexenstahl]

Because if your love yourself you don’t change your entire life and how you feel by injecting pills meant for oral administration into your forearm.

Ppl that practice self love treat themselves how they would treat their child or their spouse. Nobody would encourage someone they love to shoot oxy pills into their veins.
.

I think you have completely misunderstood me. I never said to shoot pills. That oxy part in my post was in reference to oral consumption. Perhaps I phrased it badly. Shooting opioids was only meant for liquids made for injection or solutions like L-Polamidon that can be injected without issue. Sorry for that misunderstanding but english isn't my first language.

Not to mention what you’re saying goes against the entire consensus of of the medical, scientific, recovery, and therapy community

Consensus doesn't make something right. The truth was never a popularity contest. Not saying what I say is the only truth, but one should acknowledge that sobriety isn't for everyone.

 

[wirkdy]

just for the record:
I regained 19 KILOS in just one month, I could not believe it could happen. It's jaw dropping. It's a lot of weight. Mostly muscle by training.

 

[elgoucho9]

just for the record:
I regained 19 KILOS in just one month, I could not believe it could happen. It's jaw dropping. It's a lot of weight. Mostly muscle by training.

Being fit, healthy and enjoying life without drugs is something that's greatly under appreciated around here.

Yes i loved opiates. However once you get addicted i found them to be significantly less fun. Not getting the same effect and essentially just stopping yourself from getting sick by using.

It's a different feeling being sober, fit & healthy, high on life. As much as i love many different drugs, that feeling is the best. There are times when i find sobriety can be boring and i wish i had something, but those are balanced out by no longer having those desperate times scrabbling around dealers trying to get sorted, or flat broke on your arse cos you've rinsed all your money.

Glad to hear you turned things around @wirkdy. Keep up the training and eating good. Nothing better than that feeling when your fit, healthy & motivated to do better in life.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

Being fit, healthy and enjoying life without drugs is something that's greatly under appreciated around here.

It's a different feeling being sober, fit & healthy, high on life. As much as i love many different drugs, that feeling is the best.

QFT

We're often just in denial of it, and for many of us (and for many different reasons) a life (completely) without drugs would just not be possible anymore