Landrew
Bluelighter
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DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
Vancouver BC man claims poorly mixed fentanyl results in 'hot spots' which kill.
- Thread starter Landrew
- Start date
He is right, it happens with pressed pills too like ecstasy, fake adderall, and fake M30s. Some pills have too little and some have too much because the people that make them don't have the proper powder blending equipment that is like what pharma companies use instead they shake the powders up in a tupperware and call it good
Not sure where I first heard that though, sorry
Not sure where I first heard that though, sorry
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I don't really believe it. I don't think even nearly pure fentanyl reaches lower level dealers. It's only pure while it's being smuggled.
I think the problem is all of these odd analogues that are turning up. Their potency can be x20M in one person and x80M in another.
The fakes pills vary because of the same reason.
Their ARE understrength pills but that is no accident... not heard of overstrength pills.
I think the problem is all of these odd analogues that are turning up. Their potency can be x20M in one person and x80M in another.
The fakes pills vary because of the same reason.
Their ARE understrength pills but that is no accident... not heard of overstrength pills.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
BTW one of the reasons Janssen produced over 26000 analogues and homologues. MANY had unreliable dose/response curve, some had a low TI and some were just too strong for use in man which is why carfentanil is generally reserved for elephants and that size of beast,
Oh, and their is no fentanyl analogue suitable for giraffes. Every analogue tested proved to have a low TI. That's why their is a specific Bentley compound (etorphine analogue that is reserved for the giraffe).
I honestly read KW Bentley's book on his team's work on 'Bentley Compounds' and he notes that unlike fentanyl, HIS class can be modified in much more subtle ways. But just don't take him up on an offer of a cup of tea (someone stirred the pot with a glass rod that had previously stirred etorphine and the entire team was discovered unconscious... but luckily their was M101 in the lab (which is also used to reverse carfentanil overdoses).
I've wasted my life.
Oh, and their is no fentanyl analogue suitable for giraffes. Every analogue tested proved to have a low TI. That's why their is a specific Bentley compound (etorphine analogue that is reserved for the giraffe).
I honestly read KW Bentley's book on his team's work on 'Bentley Compounds' and he notes that unlike fentanyl, HIS class can be modified in much more subtle ways. But just don't take him up on an offer of a cup of tea (someone stirred the pot with a glass rod that had previously stirred etorphine and the entire team was discovered unconscious... but luckily their was M101 in the lab (which is also used to reverse carfentanil overdoses).
I've wasted my life.
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sekio
Bluelight Crew
I somehow doubt this. Dealers here don't mix their own "down" (as the local lingo goes). They almost always buy it from their "boss" who probably knows the people distributing the final product on a large scale. It is almost always as homogeneous as possible. (It is not good PR to kill too many customers).
This sounds like a good excuse to shift the blame for reckless/unsafe opioid use off the users and onto the dealer. "Oh, bro didn't die because he came out of a 3 week detox and immediately smoked two points of purple down* alone and died.. it must have been the hot spots in the dope!" (* For some reason, some dealers colour the dope with carfentanil in it deep purple/blue. It looks like Sharpie ink in a syringe.) Or people switch dealers and get a different product and don't bother to titrate the new stuff, and again, use alone and die. Naloxone kits and the education on how to use them are free at every pharmacy, so almost every serious doper has one around (even if just to steal some of the 4 VanishPoint 23ga x 1" 10mL syringes), and also many smart/caring bystanders or first responders. This means if you are using dope with a buddy or a small group (or in public) and you do overdose, there is a pretty solid chance you will be pumped full of naloxone pretty quickly, and maybe even being given respirations with a bag valve mask or (for brave souls) mouth to mouth, feeling like total shit for the next 40 minutes, and walking away looking foolish but still very much alive (possibly having your pockets raided while unconscious, if you have shitty "rescuers"). On the other hand if you OD in your bedroom (or any location) with nobody else around or knowing you're doing dope... you are as good as dead, my friend.
Dope users don't let other users use alone. It's standard practice to find a buddy to shoot up with, or at least do it around other dope users with naloxone kits. Not everyone here will just sit idly by and watch a stranger die next to them, thankfully!
Also, the dope here can contain 4-fluorofentanyl and also carfentanil these days. Presumably this is because these analogues have longer half lives than "normal" fentanyl - turns out people complain when a dose of "down" lasts 4 hours, tops, and then the withdrawals start again. Carfentanil in particular has a half life of almost 8h meaning some people can do one or two doses a day and function (although the small amount of carfentanil is paired with larger amounts of fentanyl for "a better hit" apparently.
Now, like other places, xylazine is even showing up. I pray that it doesn't last here, like levamisole (too much competition between various large dealers, & a highly discerning clientele of dope addicts)
This sounds like a good excuse to shift the blame for reckless/unsafe opioid use off the users and onto the dealer. "Oh, bro didn't die because he came out of a 3 week detox and immediately smoked two points of purple down* alone and died.. it must have been the hot spots in the dope!" (* For some reason, some dealers colour the dope with carfentanil in it deep purple/blue. It looks like Sharpie ink in a syringe.) Or people switch dealers and get a different product and don't bother to titrate the new stuff, and again, use alone and die. Naloxone kits and the education on how to use them are free at every pharmacy, so almost every serious doper has one around (even if just to steal some of the 4 VanishPoint 23ga x 1" 10mL syringes), and also many smart/caring bystanders or first responders. This means if you are using dope with a buddy or a small group (or in public) and you do overdose, there is a pretty solid chance you will be pumped full of naloxone pretty quickly, and maybe even being given respirations with a bag valve mask or (for brave souls) mouth to mouth, feeling like total shit for the next 40 minutes, and walking away looking foolish but still very much alive (possibly having your pockets raided while unconscious, if you have shitty "rescuers"). On the other hand if you OD in your bedroom (or any location) with nobody else around or knowing you're doing dope... you are as good as dead, my friend.
Dope users don't let other users use alone. It's standard practice to find a buddy to shoot up with, or at least do it around other dope users with naloxone kits. Not everyone here will just sit idly by and watch a stranger die next to them, thankfully!
Also, the dope here can contain 4-fluorofentanyl and also carfentanil these days. Presumably this is because these analogues have longer half lives than "normal" fentanyl - turns out people complain when a dose of "down" lasts 4 hours, tops, and then the withdrawals start again. Carfentanil in particular has a half life of almost 8h meaning some people can do one or two doses a day and function (although the small amount of carfentanil is paired with larger amounts of fentanyl for "a better hit" apparently.
Now, like other places, xylazine is even showing up. I pray that it doesn't last here, like levamisole (too much competition between various large dealers, & a highly discerning clientele of dope addicts)
LucidSDreamr
Bluelighter
This is why everyone using street opioids should volumetric dosing.
Dissolve everything thing water line or mist inhaler it into your nose. Or shoot the volumetric solution.
Even with smoking pills you’re in a big danger of this. If I had to smoke pills I would put the entire batch of pills and refused to bother with dissolving and drying to remove spots …I would at least grind the entire pill batch down to the finest powder possible then smoke bumps of the powder.
Easier said than done when you’re sick and the hot spot pill is sitting right there.
I think harm reduction agencies are failing users in not providing equipment and education on volumetric dosing
Dissolve everything thing water line or mist inhaler it into your nose. Or shoot the volumetric solution.
Even with smoking pills you’re in a big danger of this. If I had to smoke pills I would put the entire batch of pills and refused to bother with dissolving and drying to remove spots …I would at least grind the entire pill batch down to the finest powder possible then smoke bumps of the powder.
Easier said than done when you’re sick and the hot spot pill is sitting right there.
I think harm reduction agencies are failing users in not providing equipment and education on volumetric dosing
LucidSDreamr
Bluelighter
I’ve heard it’s now on the west coast. It used to be isolated to the northeast US.
This is really bad development that this shit is now in west coast fent.
Is there a field strip test for xylazine yet ? I’m. It sure what the cause of the rotting sores the Kensington users are getting but ppl are blaming xylazine. These sores also occur in users in LA and these are ppl that don’t inject
It’s terrifying whatever the fuck is causing these sores eating pppl alive. I will never use a street drug again. Straight to the methadone clinic or bupe doc if my pain management doctor ever drops me.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
Fun fact, xylazine in heroin was actually first seen more than 10 years ago, in Puerto Rico.
Xylazine is added because it is an alpha-2a agonist, which is an adrenaline autoreceptor - it's what your body uses to sense adrenaline/noradrenaline levels. By activating this receptor it makes your body think "I have too much adrenaline floating around, I should release less to compensate", so it acts as a rapid-acting physical sedative that decreases blood pressure quite a lot, which would make your heroin or whatever seem more intense. Plus it has a short half life, and is readily diverted from veterinary supplies, and is not a controlled drug,
The closest analogue used in medicine would be clonidine.
Wiki: Xylazine administration can lead to diabetes mellitus and hyperglycemia. Other possible side-effects are areflexia, asthenia, ataxia, blurred vision, disorientation, dizziness, drowsiness, dysarthria, dysmetria, fainting, hyporeflexia, slurred speech, somnolence, staggering, coma, apnea, shallow breathing, sleepiness, premature ventricular contraction, tachycardia, miosis, and dry mouth. Rarely, hypotonia, urinary incontinence, and nonspecific electrocardiographic ST segment changes occur.
Chronic intravenous use of xylazine in combination with opioids is reported to be associated with physical deterioration, dependence, abscesses, and skin ulceration, sometimes progressing to necrosis with eschar formation, which can be physically debilitating and painful. Hypertension followed by hypotension, bradycardia, and respiratory depression lower tissue oxygenation in the skin. Thus, chronic use of xylazine can progress the skin oxygenation deficit, leading to severe skin ulceration. Lower skin oxygenation is associated with impaired healing of wounds and a higher chance of infection.[9] The ulcers may ooze pus and have a characteristic odor. In severe cases, amputations must be performed on the affected extremities.
Xylazine is added because it is an alpha-2a agonist, which is an adrenaline autoreceptor - it's what your body uses to sense adrenaline/noradrenaline levels. By activating this receptor it makes your body think "I have too much adrenaline floating around, I should release less to compensate", so it acts as a rapid-acting physical sedative that decreases blood pressure quite a lot, which would make your heroin or whatever seem more intense. Plus it has a short half life, and is readily diverted from veterinary supplies, and is not a controlled drug,
The closest analogue used in medicine would be clonidine.
there is indeed a test strip for xylazine available.
"tranq" is not xylazine specifically, rather a term for opioids with xylazine as a cut
Well, the thing is, xylazine can apparently be given by injection (IM/IV) in humans [ref] However the list of side effects is a mile long and it is not used medically in humans for this reason. Its skin ulcerating effect is apparently due to reducing oxygenation in skin.
Wiki: Xylazine administration can lead to diabetes mellitus and hyperglycemia. Other possible side-effects are areflexia, asthenia, ataxia, blurred vision, disorientation, dizziness, drowsiness, dysarthria, dysmetria, fainting, hyporeflexia, slurred speech, somnolence, staggering, coma, apnea, shallow breathing, sleepiness, premature ventricular contraction, tachycardia, miosis, and dry mouth. Rarely, hypotonia, urinary incontinence, and nonspecific electrocardiographic ST segment changes occur.
Chronic intravenous use of xylazine in combination with opioids is reported to be associated with physical deterioration, dependence, abscesses, and skin ulceration, sometimes progressing to necrosis with eschar formation, which can be physically debilitating and painful. Hypertension followed by hypotension, bradycardia, and respiratory depression lower tissue oxygenation in the skin. Thus, chronic use of xylazine can progress the skin oxygenation deficit, leading to severe skin ulceration. Lower skin oxygenation is associated with impaired healing of wounds and a higher chance of infection.[9] The ulcers may ooze pus and have a characteristic odor. In severe cases, amputations must be performed on the affected extremities.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I didn't know carfentanil had such a long T1/2. I seem to recall that 3Kg was sent to Canada from China. First batch got through, second batch a large part was seized and the entire 3rd shipment was stopped.
But it had such a bad name for a while that nobody wanted it. It turned up in the UK a few times.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
What I fail to grasp is that sufentanil has a TI of 15700 (270 for fentanyl) i.e. even though sufentanil is x10 more potent than fentanyl, you could survive a dose 10 times larger (and 100x more potent).
Fentanyl just freaks me out. It should never have been allowed outside the operating theatre,.. but it was Janssen's cash cow and so patches, sublingual, buccal and I don't know what else ALL got market approval.
And you know, it was just 1 Mexican gangster of the Sinaloa cartel (El cerebro) who heard about it off George Marquardt and by the former's release date... he had a plan.
The Mexicans had formally just helped the South Americans to get cocaine and heroin into the US but that 1 guy pushed meth production and introduced fentanyl production... and now I hear that the nitazines are turning up in the US.
When I read all of this, I scrapped and burned all the work I had done based on that 2014 paper which is for an opioid which is as simple to make as fentanyl... but is as potent as carfentanil. In my minds eye I could see my posts on WayBackMachine with a reporter saying that this new plague was caused by a series of posts on a 'drug making board on the internet' and getting arrested and extradited to the US to spend my remaining years in a high security prison.
In truth I broke my own rule because I got carried away. I ALWAYS maintain that a CNS depressant is too potent if the pure material cannot be eyeballed with relative safety....
But it had such a bad name for a while that nobody wanted it. It turned up in the UK a few times.
A Series of Deaths Involving Carfentanil in the UK and Associated Post-mortem Blood Concentrations - PubMed
The potent opioid and veterinary drug, carfentanil has recently entered the illicit drug market, especially in relation to heroin and cocaine. Recent publications have reported carfentanil concentrations found in fatalities occurring in the USA. This article presents the toxicological findings...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
What I fail to grasp is that sufentanil has a TI of 15700 (270 for fentanyl) i.e. even though sufentanil is x10 more potent than fentanyl, you could survive a dose 10 times larger (and 100x more potent).
Fentanyl just freaks me out. It should never have been allowed outside the operating theatre,.. but it was Janssen's cash cow and so patches, sublingual, buccal and I don't know what else ALL got market approval.
And you know, it was just 1 Mexican gangster of the Sinaloa cartel (El cerebro) who heard about it off George Marquardt and by the former's release date... he had a plan.
The Mexicans had formally just helped the South Americans to get cocaine and heroin into the US but that 1 guy pushed meth production and introduced fentanyl production... and now I hear that the nitazines are turning up in the US.
When I read all of this, I scrapped and burned all the work I had done based on that 2014 paper which is for an opioid which is as simple to make as fentanyl... but is as potent as carfentanil. In my minds eye I could see my posts on WayBackMachine with a reporter saying that this new plague was caused by a series of posts on a 'drug making board on the internet' and getting arrested and extradited to the US to spend my remaining years in a high security prison.
In truth I broke my own rule because I got carried away. I ALWAYS maintain that a CNS depressant is too potent if the pure material cannot be eyeballed with relative safety....
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
A while back someone posted on Erowid about snorting Telazol in high school.
That struck me as a REALLY f**ked up thing to do. Zolazepam isn't quite the monster most people think it is because it's LogP is quite low but it's potency is still listed as x4 diazepam.
Just imagine swallowing 40mg of diazepam, having a line of ketamine and going to class. Something tells me that this little group were not considered 'academically gifted'. I don't think tiletamine has much DRI activity (unlike PCP, K & MXE) so if you mix it with a potent benzo... I have to wonder HOW they made it to class and indeed did they even make it or were they imagining the whole thing.
As medicinal chemistry improves, their are more and more potent things turning up.
But when I read that their are users who PREFER tranq I had to ask myself how BAD the world they were escaping from must be.
I have heard of people abusing xylazine alone (I mean by itself) as an experiment... but people actually CHOOSING it? What kind of 'lifestyle drug' is that exactly?
sekio
Bluelight Crew
It's a bit off topic, but I have used pure tiletamine, and found it absolutely had DRI properties just like PCP, MXE, ketamine, 3-MeO-PCP, 3-MeO-PCE.
Dosages I found (all IM): 5mg for a light effect, 20mg for a solid psychedelic effect, and 50mg for the "T-hole" of sorts (beginning of proper anesthesia).
Dosages I found (all IM): 5mg for a light effect, 20mg for a solid psychedelic effect, and 50mg for the "T-hole" of sorts (beginning of proper anesthesia).
A lot of addicts here see no future for themselves and are unwilling to do any sort of personal development and prefer to spend as much time as possible either obliterated on opioids or benzos or alcohol or some combination of the 3.
I went for a bike ride the other day and 2 women were in the streets making weird jerking movements. I slowed down because i thought something was wrong( not smart but i can't just not try to help someone). Some guy from the bushes yelled..." that's ok, she's on tranq".
Did not look enjoyable at all. that's why i fully support safe supply
Did not look enjoyable at all. that's why i fully support safe supply
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I stand corrected. I'm SURE their is a reference stating no DRI - that's why I went with diphenidine, Since prolintane is a DRI and I had spotted zylofuramine, I HAD figured that a second benzene would act like an N-propyl. Also I knew lefetamine was a stimulant.... so, along with a hypothesis from the 1960s (that the 1,2-diphenylethylamines would have NMDA activity... I went onto Reaxys and discovered that it was known.... so that WHOLE first part was a waste of time.
I'm just gutted that isophenidine sulfate was blocked for short-term financial reasons.
BTW do you have any idea why methoxyphenidine seems to be toxic? Later (better) chemists managed to add that ortho halide and they seem safe.... and the methoxy homologue of K is known (in fact I think the original patent covers both) but on that scaffold.... it seems to do something bad,
Tsk - and I could simply have swapped the N-ethyl for an N-methyl... In fact, whoever makes tiletamine would likely have sold the immediate precursor cheap (I was amazed that the Indian company that made etizolam were happy to send us metizolam).
Landrew
Bluelighter
Yes indeed, the way it is said in the interview seems to excuse dealers, but on further reflection [it potentially] has the opposite effect.
We do need more consistent potency levels [and no sneaky benzo bs] in our street opiates though
sekio
Bluelight Crew
The solution is that people need to stop glorifying the high of "down" and start working to better themselves.
> We do need more consistent potency levels [and no sneaky benzo bs] in our street opiates though
Here we are blessed with a "safe supply" program. Not only do we have the usual methadone and buprenorphine maintenance, but we also have high-dose extended release morphine sulfate (Kadian) prescribed at up to 1000mg/day, in addition to "breakthrough" medication consisting of 8mg hydromorphone hydrochloride and lactose tablets (brand name Dilaudid or equivalent), in quantities up to 20 or so a day. (=160mg hydromorphone))
Also, we provide methylphenidate 10mg pills for cocaine users, and 2mg clonazepam pills for those using benzodiazepines. I think there is 10mg dextroamphetamine IR for meth users too.
The best part? You can receive any or all of these. Go to an addictions doctor and admit you have a serious drug problem with [XYZ]. Usually they will require a positive urine test, but at least that is much more easily done than trying to get a negative result. (Have a serious party the day before and indulge in all the substances you can (at safe doses, of course).) You will leave with a prescription for daily medications (you may have to pick them up or have a pharmacist witness you take the methadone for the first little while, but an ask for delivery with some pharmacies) The dr. may want to start you on methadone first for opioid use, and you may receive smaller doses than some, but if you wait a few days and ask politely ("I still get cravings to use [XYZ]") they will usually increase your dose (or add other meds, i.e. hydromorphone).
I know someone who has daily deliveries of 120mg methadone HCl in Tang, 14 x 8mg hydromorphone HCl tablets, 10 x 10mg methylphenidate tablets, 4 x 2mg clonazepam tablets, 4 x 10mg cyclobenzaprine tablets.
The sad part? A lot of users end up trading their safe drugs for street dope anyway, because they are chasing a high, and unwilling to lower their tolerance to where they can feel 36mg hydromorphone IV again.
But yeah, Vancouver seems to be doing the Right Thing when it comes to drug abuse treatment. They finally put their money where their mouth is and just did the math to realize hydromorphone tablets are a lot cheaper than treating overdoses.
> We do need more consistent potency levels [and no sneaky benzo bs] in our street opiates though
Here we are blessed with a "safe supply" program. Not only do we have the usual methadone and buprenorphine maintenance, but we also have high-dose extended release morphine sulfate (Kadian) prescribed at up to 1000mg/day, in addition to "breakthrough" medication consisting of 8mg hydromorphone hydrochloride and lactose tablets (brand name Dilaudid or equivalent), in quantities up to 20 or so a day. (=160mg hydromorphone))
Also, we provide methylphenidate 10mg pills for cocaine users, and 2mg clonazepam pills for those using benzodiazepines. I think there is 10mg dextroamphetamine IR for meth users too.
The best part? You can receive any or all of these. Go to an addictions doctor and admit you have a serious drug problem with [XYZ]. Usually they will require a positive urine test, but at least that is much more easily done than trying to get a negative result. (Have a serious party the day before and indulge in all the substances you can (at safe doses, of course).) You will leave with a prescription for daily medications (you may have to pick them up or have a pharmacist witness you take the methadone for the first little while, but an ask for delivery with some pharmacies) The dr. may want to start you on methadone first for opioid use, and you may receive smaller doses than some, but if you wait a few days and ask politely ("I still get cravings to use [XYZ]") they will usually increase your dose (or add other meds, i.e. hydromorphone).
I know someone who has daily deliveries of 120mg methadone HCl in Tang, 14 x 8mg hydromorphone HCl tablets, 10 x 10mg methylphenidate tablets, 4 x 2mg clonazepam tablets, 4 x 10mg cyclobenzaprine tablets.
The sad part? A lot of users end up trading their safe drugs for street dope anyway, because they are chasing a high, and unwilling to lower their tolerance to where they can feel 36mg hydromorphone IV again.
But yeah, Vancouver seems to be doing the Right Thing when it comes to drug abuse treatment. They finally put their money where their mouth is and just did the math to realize hydromorphone tablets are a lot cheaper than treating overdoses.
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Landrew
Bluelighter
I havent seen anyone glorify the down high since I watched Trainspotting last Millenium.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
Do they say that in the film? They list a stack of downers, but it's all the medical stuff.
I have to say, if someone cannot feel 36mg of IV hydromorphone.... that is one HELL of a tolerance.
I have brought this up before but fentanyl binds to an extra amino-acid residue and I have wondered if maybe it means other opioids don't cover fentanyl dependence.
Of course the Dutch had that figured out 40 years ago which is why bezitramide was used to treat opioid dependant patients. Then a 5YO kid finds a Bigodin (bezitramide) tablet in his mother's purse, eats it and promptly dies.... so it got banned,
I'm curious that a child would do such a thing, at least the way the official story is told. Of COURSE it should have been securely stored but even at 5 I wouldn't eat random items from my mums purse.
So now they are given methadone once a say - anyone who has had both will confirm bezitramide was a much better treatment AND the length of the amide could have been altered so that it also lasted for 24 hours.... but it became political. Ever seen how pharmacists treat people who are on daily methadone? I've walked in, been served and watched as these people were made to wait.... or is that just in the UK.
Mjäll
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 4,067
Interesting to note that kratom is nature's tranq dope, having both mu opioid and alpha 2 agonist activity.
According to ye olde naturalistic fallacy, it being a plant is also why it's kind enough not to induce any fatal respiratory depression.
According to ye olde naturalistic fallacy, it being a plant is also why it's kind enough not to induce any fatal respiratory depression.
hwbush336
Bluelighter
They called it anesthesia over there