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⫸Trans and LGBTQIA+ Discussion⫷

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bad faith, once again... surprise, surprise.

@Electrum1

the topic at hand is whether drag is inherently sexual, which it clearly is not. nor does it typically involve half naked dudes twerking. in fact, no drag show i've seen involves that.

classic drag show = dudes wearing cheesy costumes singing shitty showtunes is what i've seen. nothing vulgar in the least; although i'm sure you could find a handful of drag shows that had some sexual related shit, i am quite confident that this is the exception and not the rule.
 
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@Electrum1

i'm already aware that you don't care that you're making a bad faith argument, no need for the kittie emoji.

it is cute, though... so i'll take it
 
Boo hoo 😭

It's not bad faith just because you don't like it

You keep claiming it's not sexual when it obviously is as seen in tons of videos that are easy to find

Then you claim people being against it want to shred the constitution, and you expect me to take you seriously? Don't think I don't know what you're trying to do. Just say you support it being sexual instead of hiding behind "You can't be against this if you support the constitution" horseshit
 
Electrum1 said:
it's not sexual
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i said it isn't inherently sexual.

i never said drag is never sexual. in fact, if you chose to use your reading comprehension, i've already talked about how it could be sexual and i'm sure sometimes it is.

cop uniforms are sometimes used by strippers, does that mean cop uniforms are sexual and ought to be banned in front of children?

Electrum1 said:
It's not bad faith just because you don't like it
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nope, just when it's actually bad faith.
 
nepalnt21 said:
bad faith, once again... surprise, surprise.

@Electrum1

the topic at hand is whether drag is inherently sexual, which it clearly is not. nor does it typically involve half naked dudes twerking. in fact, no drag show i've seen involves that.

classic drag show = dudes wearing cheesy costumes singing shitty showtunes is what i've seen. nothing vulgar in the least; although i'm sure you could find a handful of drag shows that had some sexual related shit, i am quite confident that this is the exception and not the rule.
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Drag is adult entertainment, either because of what they wear or because of what they say. The legacy of drag is gay bars and night clubs.

I don't know why it's so hard for you people to understand this: drag has never been for children.

Stop trying to die on this hill. It is fomenting the right wing against gay people again when things were finally starting to calm down for the first time in modern history. As a gay person, I am sick of this. Leave the children alone. Society has spoken, a lot of people don't want this. Either society isn't ready yet or it never will be. Either way, no means no.
 
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nepalnt21 said:
cop uniforms are sometimes used by strippers, does that mean cop uniforms are sexual and ought to be banned in front of children?
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You've gotta be kidding me. That's the example you chose? You've made it clear where you stand even if you aren't aware that you have. Your binary "what if" scenarios aren't doing you any favors
 
nepalnt21 said:
iirc you don't believe in trans ppl... if so, do you think a trans woman is inherently a sexual object, definitionally?
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LOL, what does that even mean, "believe" in trans people? Are they holograms or something.
People with gender dysphoria are mentally ill, I believe that they believe they are the opposite of their biological sex.
But why are you even bringing up trans? I'm talking specifically about drag queens reading in public libraries or performing in venues for children.
Drag queens are most of the time gay men crossdressing. They're transvestites, not transgenders.

nepalnt21 said:
dress codes are a north korean thing. please move there and leave america's freedom alone. do you think trans people need to not dress as the opposite gender to that which they were born? would you mandate that? or only cis men dressing as women?
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lol we have dress codes here. That's why if you enter a public library in your underwear you'll be asked to leave. We have many decency laws in the west.

nepalnt21 said:
you still have yet to make the case that anything i've said is in support of sexualization.
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rumble.com

LGBTQ: "we just want to get married"

At this rate by 2030 they will be openly promoting what they call "family friendly LGBT orgies".
rumble.com rumble.com

^I posted this earlier (1 min video) but this is actual footage of an event as an example. Are you OK with this?

nepalnt21 said:
who the fuck said anything about that? nobody here is in support of that, this is again your disgusting imagination taking flight... please stay on track.
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I've seen reports of this actually happening in a school which is why I used it as an example. You're projecting when you think that I'm making this sick shit up.

nepalnt21 said:
did you even read it at all? she even says she is not talking about open sexual acts or indecency.
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You should be aware that the majority of people only read the headline and then some a paragraph or two. So that's very clear what the overall message is that they're trying to put out there.

nepalnt21 said:
i didn't know surgery on adults was automatically called "child" mutilation. your imagination IS AGAIN derailing this conversation.
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Not talking about adults, talking about the increasing number of irreversible surgeries (like double masectomies on girls and vaginoplasty on boys) that are occurring on people under 18.

I'll remind you again not to conflate transgnder people with drag performers. That's lowkey homophobic.
 
nepalnt21 said:
i said it isn't inherently sexual.
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I'd be willing to admit that it isn't inherently sexual, but very often sexual - as long as we can agree that there's really no good reason that it should be performed around very young children.
 
Foreigner said:
Drag is adult entertainment, either because of what they wear or because of what they say. The legacy of drag is gay bars and night clubs.
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i truly don't see what is so harmful about not putting people in jail for letting their kids see a dude in a non- sexualized bette midler costume. maybe you could explain the harm? please use simple terms, apparently i'm very dumb for not being able to see this.
 
JGrimez said:
performed
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i truly don't see what is so harmful about not putting people in jail for letting their kids see a dude in a non- sexualized bette midler costume singing shitty show tunes. maybe you could explain the harm? please use simple terms, apparently i'm very dumb for not being able to see this.
 
JGrimez said:
LOL, what does that even mean, "believe" in trans people? Are they holograms or something
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my mistake, i'm confusing you with someone else, i thought you were one of the ppl that refuse to use real trans ppl's pronouns on principle.


JGrimez said:
But why are you even bringing up trans?
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because laws (or de facto pooice policy) that target crossdressing have historically been used to persecute trans people, and (for example, in montana) new laws are being passed that have wording which allow them to be used to go after trans people (and beyonce).


JGrimez said:
decency laws
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and again, we aren't talking about indecency.


JGrimez said:
So that's very clear what the overall message is that they're trying to put out there.
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it's the fault of ppl who refuse to read and understand things that imaginary people are trying to "sexualize" kids? what a weird inference.


JGrimez said:
I've seen reports of this actually happening in a school which is why I used it as an example
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ah. well, glad it's rare... i don't support the sexualization of kids. maybe we should make school policies so they don't do it. i (as i've stated) support the normal sex ed we've had for decades.


JGrimez said:
Not talking about adults, talking about the increasing number of irreversible surgeries (like double masectomies on girls and vaginoplasty on boys) that are occurring on people under 18.
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i've seen that happen once on a 17 and 9/10ths year- old... exactly what is this number?


JGrimez said:
I'll remind you again not to conflate transgnder people with drag performers.
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never have i done that, but thanks for the reminder.
 
and about the performative acts portrayed in the video?

this is why we don't want drag queens reading books to children or singing Bette Midler songs in a classy gown. Because people who may ignorantly think it's innocent refuse to call out inappropriateness and have trouble actually speaking up and drawing a line. The line between sexual and non-sexual in drag is extremely thin (in fact the line is probably snorted by the drag queen before she walks out to perform). If the performers can't respect the line, and I've seen far too many examples of this already, then it will be drawn by others. And that is no drag queens around children.

I'm also against drag around children because it's fucking shit. It takes no skill, it's tacky, cheesy, cringe and really just a big joke. Show children amazing things that take actual skill. And there are plenty of things like that which are age-appropriate.
 
JGrimez said:
It takes no skill, it's tacky, cheesy, cringe and really just a big joke. Show children amazing things that take actual skill. And there are plenty of things like that which are age-appropriate
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i agree, which is why i wouldn't take my kids there. they'd (and i'd) die of fucking boredom from the banality. but making it illegal? ffs...
 
nepalnt21 said:
i agree, which is why i wouldn't take my kids there. they'd (and i'd) die of fucking boredom from the banality. but making it illegal? ffs...
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yes, for the same reason that you refuse to condemn the acts portrayed in the video.

If you wouldn't take your kids to see it then that should tell you something.
 
Many liberals celebrated when Hamtramck, Michigan, elected a Muslim-majority council in 2015 but a vote to exclude LGBTQ+ flags from city property has soured relations
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Who would have thought? Ignorance is bliss :unsure:


www.theguardian.com

‘A sense of betrayal’: liberal dismay as Muslim-led US city bans Pride flags

Many liberals celebrated when Hamtramck, Michigan, elected a Muslim-majority council in 2015 but a vote to exclude LGBTQ+ flags from city property has soured relations
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
JGrimez said:
yes, for the same reason that you refuse to condemn the acts portrayed in the video.
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i hadn't had time to watch it.

now that i have, i can see why ppl are disgusted by it... it's gross... but worse, it's tacky. i wouldn't take my kids there.

the dude doing splits has mad talent, though fr.

JGrimez said:
If you wouldn't take your kids to see it then that should tell you something.
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yeah, that we have the freedom to not go to it. i like freedom.

but for the same reason i wouldn't make church illegal (an arguably MUCH more harmful place than a show where dudes are twerking in tights, and i should know being someone that is recovering from religion), i don't believe we should make it illegal for ppl to take their kids there.

the only reason you can point to those things being in any way sexual is because you've been exposed to, or maybe even have had sex.

those kids have ZERO idea of what sex is, and dudes twerking in tights is NOT going to tell them anything about sex. a priest might, but not a public show of a dude wearing effeminate gear.

make it illegal for your tax money to go to it, make it illegal to have twerking shows in schools and libraries... but i don't see how you could or why you think it's necessary to make it illegal to perform those things which ARE VERY MUCH NOT sex acts with kids. it is not grooming, nor is it child sexual abuse. you're stretching because it makes you uncomfortable.

you'd be the same person in the fifties trying to arrest elvis!
 
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nepalnt21 said:
the topic at hand is whether drag is inherently sexual, which it clearly is not. nor does it typically involve half naked dudes twerking. in fact, no drag show i've seen involves that.
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I would say the root topic isn't even whether drag is sexy or not. The fundamental base of *ALL* of these LGBT discussions are civil rights, nondiscrimination, full equality under the law, and freedom from violent abuse. Anything else is just a distraction or deflection. All of this blather about children is an intellectually dishonest and fallacious appeal to emotion; which the republicans are exploiting because they know they can't form a logical and objective rationale for discriminating against us without sleazy tugging at emotional heartstrings. And they know that the Helen Lovejoy "argument" has worked in the past to shout down discussion. So... lacking in imagination and creativity that they are... they reuse and recycle the same fallacy, using children as props to "justify" their preconceived bigotry. Hell... I know I shouldn't even bother here. As you say, they're operating in bad faith. And they've already made up their minds and are just making up talking points to support their perfidious narrative. But it is hard to sit and watch people attack me and mine with nothing but pure BS like this.

I mean... fuck. I don't even like drag. But drag queens are part of my community and just because something is not my particular cup of tea, I'm sure as shit not going to attack or discriminate against them just for having a hobby I'm not into... and I'm not going to attack them with a legitimate argument (If I could even come up with one.) any more than I would attack them with the specious fallacies these republicans are into.
 
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