Mental Health Coming off Invega (Paliperidone, Xeplion) injections v. 7.0

[Merek]

^ Not always. I have not felt depressed at all on any antipsychotic ive been on. Anhedonia yes but not depression. If anything the zyprexa im on helps my mood. 7

As far as invega goes thiough i think it should be a last ditch option not the first fucking drug they give you. I would much rather thorazine

Crippling anhedonia is worse then depression imo.

 

[t_xeplionhell]

I think it takes 3 months to increase levels it might work now that it’s been longer, do u feel anything at all from caffeine yet

I used it 12 months at recommended max dosis, didn't feel any difference, it is because it doesn't matter if levels are increased and receptors are blocked.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Blocking serotonin is not a way to inflict someone with positive effects, that is gospel fact. It certainly wont raise serotonin
levels, to be block dopamine receptorsHOW COULD THEY EVEN CHECK THAT

Why just use it on schizos?(and unforntubate bipolar cases) Why not hand it out to people with colds, depression, etc ?


If you cant get it done off APs(life) Theres no way you can get it done on them. Your story reads like a brochure if half truths.

The very concept blocking dopamine and serotonin to fix any issue is just illogical

Giving someone brain damage with
pharmaceuticals is lazy and bad medicine.

Feel free to start with this introductory page. You know very, very little about what you claim to know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopharmacology

If you can't be nice, you'll be sent away. That's how it goes. We don't condone whining.

 

[Bobskitchen]

I used it 12 months at recommended max dosis, didn't feel any difference, it is because it doesn't matter if levels are increased and receptors are blocked.

I know I’m saying by now maybe ur receptors are unblocked

 

[HelpMeInvega]

You can suffer from neurological damage from being on the injection.

 

[Invegaishell]

That first statement is untrue, and honestly wildly reductive. For one example of many, blocking certain 5-HT2 receptors leads to more dopamine in the frontal lobe.

Even when I was on it, I still was productive. It's hard, but since I believed in myself and in my willpower I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.

Then there's another untrue statement. It didn't work on me. And again being reductive, I never mentioned that it works for everyone taking it. You're attributing words to me that I never said.

Don't know why you put recovery in quotations unless you're trying to mock me.

As for that last statement, since you probably weren't on it for long enough, I'm not surprised that it didn't work. Are you reading what I type? Thanks.

Do you have any evidence that blocking certain receptors leads to more dopamine. The statement itself blocking receptors would lead to a decrease in dopamine. https://www.mind.org.uk states “Most antipsychotic drugs are known to block some of the dopamine receptors in the brain. This reduces the flow of these messages.” You’ve been a moderator on here for quite some and seen many people come and go. Based one of what you’ve seen there is no possible way you can back invega sustenna. I do agree it works on some people but when drugs.com states ”23% of reviewers reported a positive experience, while 65% reported a negative experience“ it is overall a bad drug. When something is chemically induced and close to a “chemical lobotomy” and you state “I believed in myself” it makes me think you didn’t experience it like the other people including myself. Just because your experience is different than others doesn’t mean you get to speak for everyone. Especially saying things like “I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.” That is very insulting when some people can’t get out of bed. If we could vote out moderators I would second that especially someone who implies we just twiddle our thumbs and complain. Am I reading your statement clearly moderator. Also, stating “are you reading what am I saying” is being reductive in itself and is no argument. That’s like me assuming you were on 39mg which I am inclined to believe that you were. Go back on invega

 

[sweetheart123]

Well I can play it smooth and act normal on the outside but I’ve been thinking very irrationally lately, like one thing I just thought about was that I have a guardian angel watching over me from the cosmos and that it’s a demon who has complete control over me & killed one of my friends back in November when the guy got sick and died cause he was gonna tell me some kind of secret I eventually told myself it isn’t real but I’ve questioned it over and over like what if it’s true anything’s possible. I’ve had more irrational thoughts some even more messed up then that & this started 3-4 weeks ago and has slowly been getting more intense it started with anxiety and now it’s creeping into paranoia, it’s nowhere near as bad as the psychosis I had last summer but I have a bad gut feeling it may get there.

Invega causes psychosis too

 

[roofmaan1]

I used it 12 months at recommended max dosis, didn't feel any difference, it is because it doesn't matter if levels are increased and receptors are blocked.

how long have you been off and how recovered are you???

 

[Merek]

Do you have any evidence that blocking certain receptors leads to more dopamine. The statement itself blocking receptors would lead to a decrease in dopamine. https://www.mind.org.uk states “Most antipsychotic drugs are known to block some of the dopamine receptors in the brain. This reduces the flow of these messages.” You’ve been a moderator on here for quite some and seen many people come and go. Based one of what you’ve seen there is no possible way you can back invega sustenna. I do agree it works on some people but when drugs.com states ”23% of reviewers reported a positive experience, while 65% reported a negative experience“ it is overall a bad drug. When something is chemically induced and close to a “chemical lobotomy” and you state “I believed in myself” it makes me think you didn’t experience it like the other people including myself. Just because your experience is different than others doesn’t mean you get to speak for everyone. Especially saying things like “I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.” That is very insulting when some people can’t get out of bed. If we could vote out moderators I would second that especially someone who implies we just twiddle our thumbs and complain. Am I reading your statement clearly moderator. Also, stating “are you reading what am I saying” is being reductive in itself and is no argument. That’s like me assuming you were on 39mg which I am inclined to believe that you were. Go back on invega

Agreed, @AlphaMethylPhenyl if you’re pro anti psychotics all power too you man we’re all entitled too our own opinions but bashing other peoples opinions saying it’s wrong acting like you know everything is quite frankly unprofessional, you have no way to know for sure from reading some Wikipedia page the brain is like a piece of alien technology not even neuroscientists know exactly how it works, I’ll take what you said and apply it to you “your experience isn’t gospel”.

 

[Kaatrina]

You abused substances right ?
A 5 min google search will show how horrific invega is

i didnt abuse any substances and i went psychotic. Mine was strongly related to grief around the unexpected death of my brother. You don't have to have done anything wrong to go mad. Madness existed in this form long, long before the drug industry ever did.

For those saying AP's don't work; well if illegal drugs increase dopamine & AP's reduce dopamine then it would only make sense that it does work on reducing psychosis, since excessive dopamine is linked to psychosis. Idk why people are shitting on AP's there are alot of people who got benefit out of them yeah I know the side effects sucks of AP's but these neuro scientists, doctors havent worked all their lifes and countless amount of research for a drug that doesn't work or has placebo effects.

Research and analysis show that your chances of long-term recovery (being able to support yourself and live a stable life) are much higher off of APs than on them. There is no scientific evidence that proves the theory of "chemical imbalance" in relation to mental ilness. Read a critical psychiatry textbook instead of parroting lines you heard from mass media

See its a complex matter treating psychosis or schizophrenia it's not as easy as you would think to come up with a better drug, some things have to be sacrificed to get any benefits and those things are side effects like TD, Akathisia, Ahedonia. Using AP's are the only effective treatment for SMI's. Talk therapy rarely works & it's not that effective at treating severe mental ilnesses & also medication is free in the UK if your on disability which you are most likely on it if you use AP's so really no ones making profit if you think about it as you're the consumer of the medication and arent paying for it the gov isnt making money their paying for it.

You forgot heart problems, early death (by 20 years) sexual dysfunction, and suicide. All of this and you will still eventually relapse while on APs as your body gets used to them.
CBT therapy and others mentioned has proved to be an effective form of treatment. Short term use of benzos are also highly effective at knocking out episodes of psychosis as they occur and is a method preferred by patients.
The government pays the drug companies, it's still money to them either way, those companies nake more money that way because people will use more drugs that way. I lost my job in first psychosis & got on medicaid, J&J got an easy 1k+ from me per month from WA state for being on invega. If my psych had her way, i would have been on it for life - that shit I didn't need could have paid someones rent!

What you talking about you cant have a succesfuly treat someone with schizophrenia with talk therapy mate its a genetical disease. I guess you would say anything to not take any AP cause its easier for you like that. It might help you cope with your ilness but thats about it. Talk therapy doesnt change chemicals in your brain. A person with schizophrenia has a different brain formation than someone who doesnt. Im not defending AP's im just thinking two sided

There is not one study that can back this statement up. There is no neurological marker for schizophrenia.

Increase in dopamine is the main factor for psychosis at least for me

See above.

This chemical sorcery create like two moon phase in the brain, the white phase and the black one. That evil shit create a type of nuclear fission too, a chromosome fracture Adn etc you Lost something just like in the processus of a nuclear fission and do a thing like gravitation like there is on the moon in the brain like an earthquake too and in a way it have to be very profitable for evil people in a sens.
It look like the baphomet of templar... Your head go in your ass and when you a man you loss in a way your masculine form.
It look like it is an satanist alchemy not the Real alchemy wich i think is really efficient against this thing but... If WE CAN create this horror it could be that the cancer and the hiv are like a SCAM... Its a Big word but with this nuclear science how Can WE dont cure those kind of decease im not a doctor but there is some simple exemple like the memory of water etc ...
Bad energy Can insuflate damage.
In your country they start to talk about the " MMS " like it is a chemical Bleach im not sure but for that evil shit it look like the plasma lamp what it do to the brain maybe it infuse a very magnetique virus by this kind of fission juste like the plasma lamp
Maybe with therapy just like with poisoning of (radioactive source are with Bad metals ) Mercury etc ) Can be profitable.
Maybe luminotherapy too ( uv infrared ) Magnets too... For some people that EVIL shit does nothing it looks like this Evil shit can be desactivated for some people wich i Call " actors "
The remedy wich Can be found by scientific have to be a nuclear fission too with maybe radio waves magnets luminotherapy remedy against metals poisoning and radioactive one etc wich fix this chemical virus and destroy it.
Maybe it Can work with blood extraction too.
In my perception it is designed for sur for some people not all and react really with the photosynthese and Sun ... An earth have grass on it plant etc with that it is like a desert juste like a nuclear bomb wich again the conception have to be infused by the devil himself... Juste like this one

For those people who that shit dont work it is not possible.
A fracture its a fracture ok stop your bullshit if WE break for exemple a leg it is broken
Dont need to be a doctor and with a fracture you need to cry its logical that thing its a nuclear fracture.
( I GOT twenty of injection for words, satanisme is everywhere ( TV, internet , radio ) Good luck

This guy is on 20+ injections and you still want to say APs work?

Reading sucks on invega. I couldn’t retain information at all. I would read a paragraph then forget what I read immediately. I would also have trouble understanding what the author was trying to say after reading the entire book. Like I had no deep thoughts and couldn’t make connections. Now I read like a breeze. I can find symbolism in things again and understand what the author is saying. Same with movies. I wouldn’t watch movies on invega. I would just look at my phone because I couldn’t pay attention. Now I’m back to watching my favorite shows and movies and can retain the information. Invega definitely makes you feel mentally disabled. Just remember it is the drug and you will be back to your quick witted, brilliant self.

This mirrors my experience. Beware of hyperfocusing on symbolism now that you can see it again.

That first statement is untrue, and honestly wildly reductive. For one example of many, blocking certain 5-HT2 receptors leads to more dopamine in the frontal lobe.

Even when I was on it, I still was productive. It's hard, but since I believed in myself and in my willpower I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.

Then there's another untrue statement. It didn't work on me. And again being reductive, I never mentioned that it works for everyone taking it. You're attributing words to me that I never said.

Don't know why you put recovery in quotations unless you're trying to mock me.

As for that last statement, since you probably weren't on it for long enough, I'm not surprised that it didn't work. Are you reading what I type? Thanks.

Mods shouldn't really be coming in here to say that the only reason people trying to function can't on invega is because they don't have enough "willpower". That's really fucked up.

Well I can play it smooth and act normal on the outside but I’ve been thinking very irrationally lately, like one thing I just thought about was that I have a guardian angel watching over me from the cosmos and that it’s a demon who has complete control over me & killed one of my friends back in November when the guy got sick and died cause he was gonna tell me some kind of secret I eventually told myself it isn’t real but I’ve questioned it over and over like what if it’s true anything’s possible. I’ve had more irrational thoughts some even more messed up then that & this started 3-4 weeks ago and has slowly been getting more intense it started with anxiety and now it’s creeping into paranoia, it’s nowhere near as bad as the psychosis I had last summer but I have a bad gut feeling it may get there.

This sounds just like me in the month before my second psychosis at thirteen months off. I wish I had checked myself in when I was feeling like this before I got out of control. Please be careful Merek.

Awe I’m sorry, sounds a bit like magical thinking. Just keep an eye on it. I’m sure you have been. As long as you catch it early it will be ok.

In my opinion, catching it early would be nipping it in the bud now...maybe staying somewhere for a few days.

^ Not always. I have not felt depressed at all on any antipsychotic ive been on. Anhedonia yes but not depression. If anything the zyprexa im on helps my mood. 7

As far as invega goes thiough i think it should be a last ditch option not the first fucking drug they give you. I would much rather thorazine

How can you be anhedonic and not be depressed

Feel free to start with this introductory page. You know very, very little about what you claim to know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopharmacology

If you can't be nice, you'll be sent away. That's how it goes. We don't condone whining.

A wiki link to psychopharacology really proves none of your claims. Have you considered that you'd be in the same "happy" state you're in whether you had taken APs or not? You may have been lucky not to get TD, suicide, or a soft dick, but others aren't so much

Agreed, @AlphaMethylPhenyl if you’re pro anti psychotics all power too you man we’re all entitled too our own opinions but bashing other peoples opinions saying it’s wrong acting like you know everything is quite frankly unprofessional, you have no way to know for sure from reading some Wikipedia page the brain is like a piece of alien technology not even neuroscientists know exactly how it works, I’ll take what you said and apply it to you “your experience isn’t gospel”.

Is it just me or are the mods getting more & more preachy pro-psych lately . I've nev3r been on a forum where the mods have been so personally argumentative with the users as far as subject matter instead of mod issues.

At this rate we won't reach V20, because we will only be allowed to speak of taking & not ceasing meds

 

[Masterp423]

Do you have any evidence that blocking certain receptors leads to more dopamine. The statement itself blocking receptors would lead to a decrease in dopamine. https://www.mind.org.uk states “Most antipsychotic drugs are known to block some of the dopamine receptors in the brain. This reduces the flow of these messages.” You’ve been a moderator on here for quite some and seen many people come and go. Based one of what you’ve seen there is no possible way you can back invega sustenna. I do agree it works on some people but when drugs.com states ”23% of reviewers reported a positive experience, while 65% reported a negative experience“ it is overall a bad drug. When something is chemically induced and close to a “chemical lobotomy” and you state “I believed in myself” it makes me think you didn’t experience it like the other people including myself. Just because your experience is different than others doesn’t mean you get to speak for everyone. Especially saying things like “I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.” That is very insulting when some people can’t get out of bed. If we could vote out moderators I would second that especially someone who implies we just twiddle our thumbs and complain. Am I reading your statement clearly moderator. Also, stating “are you reading what am I saying” is being reductive in itself and is no argument. That’s like me assuming you were on 39mg which I am inclined to believe that you were. Go back on invega

Yeah that moderator has been a perp from the beginning. He used to say some stupid shit to me in the summer of 2020 whenever I first started chatting on here

 

[t_xeplionhell]

I know I’m saying by now maybe ur receptors are unblocked

I'm still improving every 1-2 months. Problem is not only in blocked receptors but is also a damage that it does to receptors, they get misshapen and thus are working less, that is one of reasons why it takes long time. I am taking L-Theanine for better sleep at 100-200mg but it makes me feel no difference when I take it or not. I will try L-tyrosine again, it is possible that it will now make small but noticable difference.

 

[t_xeplionhell]

Do you have any evidence that blocking certain receptors leads to more dopamine. The statement itself blocking receptors would lead to a decrease in dopamine. https://www.mind.org.uk states “Most antipsychotic drugs are known to block some of the dopamine receptors in the brain. This reduces the flow of these messages.” You’ve been a moderator on here for quite some and seen many people come and go. Based one of what you’ve seen there is no possible way you can back invega sustenna. I do agree it works on some people but when drugs.com states ”23% of reviewers reported a positive experience, while 65% reported a negative experience“ it is overall a bad drug. When something is chemically induced and close to a “chemical lobotomy” and you state “I believed in myself” it makes me think you didn’t experience it like the other people including myself. Just because your experience is different than others doesn’t mean you get to speak for everyone. Especially saying things like “I was able to do more than twiddle my thumbs and complain about it.” That is very insulting when some people can’t get out of bed. If we could vote out moderators I would second that especially someone who implies we just twiddle our thumbs and complain. Am I reading your statement clearly moderator. Also, stating “are you reading what am I saying” is being reductive in itself and is no argument. That’s like me assuming you were on 39mg which I am inclined to believe that you were. Go back on invega

I have seen these positive reviewers happens to sometimes be not people who take it but parents or caregivers.

 

[Kaatrina]

I think it's important to post the data in relation to the discussion we'd been having on neuroleptics. The idea that peer support or non-neuroleptic treatment doesn't show good long term results is common but a result of effective industry messaging rather than the study of actual data.

Screenshot-20230510-033436-Chrome hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-033436-Chrome hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

A chart showing the increase in the disabled mentally ill since APs were introduced in the 60s

Screenshot-20230510-033038-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-033038-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart showing 60%+ of hospitalized patients receiving good outcomes after treatment in time periods before neuroleptics were introduced

Screenshot-20230510-032957-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032957-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

70%+ functional outcome (not disabled) after open dialog therapy in Finland. 67% never relapsed, 79% asymptomatic after five year follow up. Also shows similar results from Soteria (peer support) houses (rare in the US). There is actually a peer support house in my new city that I plan to go to if I ever experience problems again. I feel at this point that by moving and removing myself from my unhealthy family dynamic I may not ever be psychotic again.

Screenshot-20230510-032907-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032907-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

A comparison of long term recovery rates for patients on and off APs. This is brutal. Chances of recovery on APs are less than 5%. You are 8x more likely to recover if not using APs. Guess if you choose the med route you gotta have a lot of "willpower" to be in that 5%.

Screenshot-20230510-032855-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032855-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart shows the rise in all-cause mortality rates among the mentally ill. Does "willpower" protect you from sudden cardiac death? Asking for a friend.

Screenshot-20230510-032809-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032809-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart shows clinically negligible results in depression results over time with AD use in comparison to placebo. Much like AP use, time will cause recovery whether you are on the drugs or not.

Most of this data can be seen in this paper that I linked https://www.madinamerica.com/2023/04/white-paper-against-forced-treatment/


One wonders why, if APs are so damaging and peer support so much more effective, the industry is shaped the way it is. Unfortunately it does seem as if psycjoatry has become a cooperative effort in hand with the drug industry iver the years. We can look at cases of what happens to psychs who speak put against the ineffectiveness of the med model.

"The authors of the Cochrane review, which pointed out that we don’t have evidence that psychosis drugs in an acute early episode of schizophrenia is effective,154 included a randomised trial by Loren Mosher in their review.250 Mosher compared 55 patients in hospital, all of whom received psychosis drugs, with 45 patients treated in a non-hospital milieu where 67% did not receive psychosis drugs, and the results after six weeks were virtually the same.

Mosher wasn’t against using psychosis drugs.7:168 He opened a 12-room Soteria house in 1971, as he wanted to treat acutely psychotic people in a humanistic way with empathy and caring. There were no locks on the doors, and the idea was to treat people with respect.

His staff were not mental health professionals but people who had social skills and empathy and who listened to the patients’ stories, which often revealed traumas with abuse and extreme social failure.251 Thus, Mosher paved the way for the Open Dialogue approach (see Chapter 7, Part Three).

The good results obtained by Mosher, also after the randomised trial, by avoiding using psychosis drugs were too threatening to other psychiatrists.1 His patients had fewer relapses and functioned better in society in terms of holding a job and attending school than those on drugs. It was offensive to the psychiatrists to suggest that ordinary people could help crazy people more than psychiatrists with their drugs. But Mosher was the chief of the Center for Studies of Schizophrenia at the US National Institute of Mental Health, so it wasn’t obvious how he could be stopped.

The NIMH clinical project committee raised doubts about the scientific rigour of his research team and reduced the funding for Mosher’s project to such a low level that it was a financial kiss of death.1 This is the standard method used in healthcare by those who hold the power when the results of a project threaten the status quo and their carefully pruned self-image. Mosher tried to get around the obstacle by applying for funding from the NIMH division that dealt with social services, and the peer review committee was very enthusiastic. However, the clinical projects committee killed his project right off, as it threatened the very credibility of academic psychiatry with its medical model of drug therapy. This was done with derogatory remarks about the study’s postulated “serious flaws” and with the fatal blow that further funding would only come forward if Mosher stepped down so that the committee could redesign the project with another investigator.

This is one of the ugliest manoeuvres I have ever seen being used against a high-ranked investigator who was a treasure for the patients, and a bitter Mosher said 25 year later: “If we were getting outcomes this good, then I must not be an honest scientist.”1:224 The NIMH made Mosher an outcast and threw him out of the NIMH three years later. Others in America who questioned the merits of psychosis pills learned quickly that this would not advance their career, and NIMH did not allot any more funds to this type of project.5 Many years later, the first author on the Cochrane review analysed the follow-up data from Mosher’s study and discovered that they were even more positive than what Mosher had published.1:225

Psychotherapy for schizophrenia seems to be cost-effective. According to a NICE guideline from 2012, a systematic review of the economic evidence showed that cognitive behavioural therapy improved clinical outcomes at no additional cost, and economic modelling suggested that it might result in cost savings because of fewer hospital admissions.252

It wasn’t until 2014 that the first trial of psychotherapy in people with schizophrenia who were not on drugs was published.253 All the patients had declined to be treated with drugs. The effect size was 0.46 compared to treatment as usual, about the same as that seen in seriously flawed trials comparing psychosis pills with placebo, which is a median of 0.44.254

This means that the effect of psychotherapy is likely better than the effect of pills.US Psychiatrist Peter Breggin has described what a remarkable effect empathy, caring and understanding can have in patients with severe schizophrenia.135 As an 18-year old college freshman without mental health training, he volunteered at a state mental hospital and approached the patients as he would want himself to be approached, with care and concern, and with a desire to get to know the patients and finding out what they needed and wanted.

He was immediately appalled by how abused and humiliated the patients were by the authoritarian and sometimes violent staff, and by the brain-damaging treatments they used, including insulin coma therapy, electroshock, and lobotomy, all the while he was told that these treatments “killed bad brain cells,” which he found unlikely to be true of course.

Breggin developed an aide programme in which 15 students were assigned their own patient among those who were chronic inmates considered beyond help—burnt out schizophrenics—who had not yet been subdued by chlorpromazine. They were able to help 11 of the 15 patients to return home or to find improved placements in the community. During the next one to two years only three patients returned to the hospital.

Breggin’s programme drew national headlines and was praised as an important innovation by the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health in 1961. This was the last psychosocially oriented document to be issued by the NIMH. Ever since, the focus has been on co-operative efforts with the drug industry to promote biochemical explanations and drugs."

I also wanted to talk about what stopped me from getting help in my second psychosis. A big reason was that I didn't want to accept the label "schizophrenic". If I got help, that meant that there must be something wrong with me. I wanted to deny that fact. Now I know that just because you experience psychosis doesn't mean you are schizophrenic, despite what we are told. After a year of therapy my therapist assured me that I was not schizophrenic. At one point I talked to another therapist, who assured me that because I had been psychotic twice that I would always be on the "schizophrenic spectrum", no matter what I did. What this labeling does is dilute the term "schizophrenic". It makes no sense to label me, a functional, normal human, with the same label as the babbling man on the street like Jordan Neely or our friend a few posts earlier whose 20+ injections turned his brain into the moon. This dilution harms out ability to understand ourselves - much like autism, now many levels of social unawareness can be described with the same word used to diagnose the nonverbal kid rocking in the corner. It doesn't seem feasible and I reject the expansion of the terms in some ways.

The other big reason I didn't get help when I was worried about relapsing onto psychosis was I was deathly afraid of psychs, hospitals, and drugs. I didn't ever want to approach any place that carried any risk of harming me with a drug like invega ever again. I viewed these institutions as places of harm. These feelings exacerbated my episode greatly once I was placed in hospital. It's sort of a catch-22. If I hadn't been unable to stop screaming because I was scared of invega, I wouldn't have been involuntarily shot with Haldol. That's why I believe that it's vital to approach someone , even over the phone , while you can still express all of these fears. A lot of people DO want to help and some CAN understand about drug harms. I found out after my second psychosis that there are psychs that you can talk to about drug harms who will believe you. It's necessary to recovery to be able to stabilize yourself through psychosis in the safest way possible so that you can get on with your life.

 

[Kaatrina]

I want to note that my charts are posted in backward order to their captions. I don't feel like fixing it right now. Either way, the data is there for anyone who is actually interested

 

[apsucks]

I think it's important to post the data in relation to the discussion we'd been having on neuroleptics. The idea that peer support or non-neuroleptic treatment doesn't show good long term results is common but a result of effective industry messaging rather than the study of actual data.

Screenshot-20230510-033436-Chrome hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-033436-Chrome hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

A chart showing the increase in the disabled mentally ill since APs were introduced in the 60s

Screenshot-20230510-033038-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-033038-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart showing 60%+ of hospitalized patients receiving good outcomes after treatment in time periods before neuroleptics were introduced

Screenshot-20230510-032957-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032957-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

70%+ functional outcome (not disabled) after open dialog therapy in Finland. 67% never relapsed, 79% asymptomatic after five year follow up. Also shows similar results from Soteria (peer support) houses (rare in the US). There is actually a peer support house in my new city that I plan to go to if I ever experience problems again. I feel at this point that by moving and removing myself from my unhealthy family dynamic I may not ever be psychotic again.

Screenshot-20230510-032907-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032907-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

A comparison of long term recovery rates for patients on and off APs. This is brutal. Chances of recovery on APs are less than 5%. You are 8x more likely to recover if not using APs. Guess if you choose the med route you gotta have a lot of "willpower" to be in that 5%.

Screenshot-20230510-032855-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032855-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart shows the rise in all-cause mortality rates among the mentally ill. Does "willpower" protect you from sudden cardiac death? Asking for a friend.

Screenshot-20230510-032809-Drive hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-20230510-032809-Drive hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Chart shows clinically negligible results in depression results over time with AD use in comparison to placebo. Much like AP use, time will cause recovery whether you are on the drugs or not.

Most of this data can be seen in this paper that I linked https://www.madinamerica.com/2023/04/white-paper-against-forced-treatment/


One wonders why, if APs are so damaging and peer support so much more effective, the industry is shaped the way it is. Unfortunately it does seem as if psycjoatry has become a cooperative effort in hand with the drug industry iver the years. We can look at cases of what happens to psychs who speak put against the ineffectiveness of the med model.

"The authors of the Cochrane review, which pointed out that we don’t have evidence that psychosis drugs in an acute early episode of schizophrenia is effective,154 included a randomised trial by Loren Mosher in their review.250 Mosher compared 55 patients in hospital, all of whom received psychosis drugs, with 45 patients treated in a non-hospital milieu where 67% did not receive psychosis drugs, and the results after six weeks were virtually the same.

Mosher wasn’t against using psychosis drugs.7:168 He opened a 12-room Soteria house in 1971, as he wanted to treat acutely psychotic people in a humanistic way with empathy and caring. There were no locks on the doors, and the idea was to treat people with respect.

His staff were not mental health professionals but people who had social skills and empathy and who listened to the patients’ stories, which often revealed traumas with abuse and extreme social failure.251 Thus, Mosher paved the way for the Open Dialogue approach (see Chapter 7, Part Three).

The good results obtained by Mosher, also after the randomised trial, by avoiding using psychosis drugs were too threatening to other psychiatrists.1 His patients had fewer relapses and functioned better in society in terms of holding a job and attending school than those on drugs. It was offensive to the psychiatrists to suggest that ordinary people could help crazy people more than psychiatrists with their drugs. But Mosher was the chief of the Center for Studies of Schizophrenia at the US National Institute of Mental Health, so it wasn’t obvious how he could be stopped.

The NIMH clinical project committee raised doubts about the scientific rigour of his research team and reduced the funding for Mosher’s project to such a low level that it was a financial kiss of death.1 This is the standard method used in healthcare by those who hold the power when the results of a project threaten the status quo and their carefully pruned self-image. Mosher tried to get around the obstacle by applying for funding from the NIMH division that dealt with social services, and the peer review committee was very enthusiastic. However, the clinical projects committee killed his project right off, as it threatened the very credibility of academic psychiatry with its medical model of drug therapy. This was done with derogatory remarks about the study’s postulated “serious flaws” and with the fatal blow that further funding would only come forward if Mosher stepped down so that the committee could redesign the project with another investigator.

This is one of the ugliest manoeuvres I have ever seen being used against a high-ranked investigator who was a treasure for the patients, and a bitter Mosher said 25 year later: “If we were getting outcomes this good, then I must not be an honest scientist.”1:224 The NIMH made Mosher an outcast and threw him out of the NIMH three years later. Others in America who questioned the merits of psychosis pills learned quickly that this would not advance their career, and NIMH did not allot any more funds to this type of project.5 Many years later, the first author on the Cochrane review analysed the follow-up data from Mosher’s study and discovered that they were even more positive than what Mosher had published.1:225

Psychotherapy for schizophrenia seems to be cost-effective. According to a NICE guideline from 2012, a systematic review of the economic evidence showed that cognitive behavioural therapy improved clinical outcomes at no additional cost, and economic modelling suggested that it might result in cost savings because of fewer hospital admissions.252

It wasn’t until 2014 that the first trial of psychotherapy in people with schizophrenia who were not on drugs was published.253 All the patients had declined to be treated with drugs. The effect size was 0.46 compared to treatment as usual, about the same as that seen in seriously flawed trials comparing psychosis pills with placebo, which is a median of 0.44.254

This means that the effect of psychotherapy is likely better than the effect of pills.US Psychiatrist Peter Breggin has described what a remarkable effect empathy, caring and understanding can have in patients with severe schizophrenia.135 As an 18-year old college freshman without mental health training, he volunteered at a state mental hospital and approached the patients as he would want himself to be approached, with care and concern, and with a desire to get to know the patients and finding out what they needed and wanted.

He was immediately appalled by how abused and humiliated the patients were by the authoritarian and sometimes violent staff, and by the brain-damaging treatments they used, including insulin coma therapy, electroshock, and lobotomy, all the while he was told that these treatments “killed bad brain cells,” which he found unlikely to be true of course.

Breggin developed an aide programme in which 15 students were assigned their own patient among those who were chronic inmates considered beyond help—burnt out schizophrenics—who had not yet been subdued by chlorpromazine. They were able to help 11 of the 15 patients to return home or to find improved placements in the community. During the next one to two years only three patients returned to the hospital.

Breggin’s programme drew national headlines and was praised as an important innovation by the Joint Commission on Mental Illness and Health in 1961. This was the last psychosocially oriented document to be issued by the NIMH. Ever since, the focus has been on co-operative efforts with the drug industry to promote biochemical explanations and drugs."

I also wanted to talk about what stopped me from getting help in my second psychosis. A big reason was that I didn't want to accept the label "schizophrenic". If I got help, that meant that there must be something wrong with me. I wanted to deny that fact. Now I know that just because you experience psychosis doesn't mean you are schizophrenic, despite what we are told. After a year of therapy my therapist assured me that I was not schizophrenic. At one point I talked to another therapist, who assured me that because I had been psychotic twice that I would always be on the "schizophrenic spectrum", no matter what I did. What this labeling does is dilute the term "schizophrenic". It makes no sense to label me, a functional, normal human, with the same label as the babbling man on the street like Jordan Neely or our friend a few posts earlier whose 20+ injections turned his brain into the moon. This dilution harms out ability to understand ourselves - much like autism, now many levels of social unawareness can be described with the same word used to diagnose the nonverbal kid rocking in the corner. It doesn't seem feasible and I reject the expansion of the terms in some ways.

The other big reason I didn't get help when I was worried about relapsing onto psychosis was I was deathly afraid of psychs, hospitals, and drugs. I didn't ever want to approach any place that carried any risk of harming me with a drug like invega ever again. I viewed these institutions as places of harm. These feelings exacerbated my episode greatly once I was placed in hospital. It's sort of a catch-22. If I hadn't been unable to stop screaming because I was scared of invega, I wouldn't have been involuntarily shot with Haldol. That's why I believe that it's vital to approach someone , even over the phone , while you can still express all of these fears. A lot of people DO want to help and some CAN understand about drug harms. I found out after my second psychosis that there are psychs that you can talk to about drug harms who will believe you. It's necessary to recovery to be able to stabilize yourself through psychosis in the safest way possible so that you can get on with your life.

Too impaired by abilify to read all of that sorry about that
The charts were clear and concise

 

[apsucks]

Anyone who still promotes antipsychotics at this point is anti human and co commitents of human crimes.
Pedophilia damages and traumatizes people yet we dont promote it because its harmfull to people.
But when it comes to illegally forcefully drugging people against their will its all fine and dandy.

Why promote something that lowers recovery rate with 75% total

P.s i got banned for animal abuse...actually people who really should be banned are the ones promoting anti psychotics

 

[Kaatrina]

Too impaired by abilify to read all of that sorry about that
The charts were clear and concise

Lol no worries. Thr long stuff is just interesting things about how top psychs that don't promote drug centric models get ousted, and my own experiences in avoiding treatment and why

Anyone who still promotes antipsychotics at this point is anti human and co commitents of human crimes.
Pedophilia damages and traumatizes people yet we dont promote it because its harmfull to people.
But when it comes to illegally forcefully drugging people against their will its all fine and dandy.

Why promote something that lowers recovery rate with 75% total

P.s i got banned for animal abuse...actually people who really should be banned are the ones promoting anti psychotics

You should get banned for animal abuse, getting joy from the pain of others is worse than forcing people onto drugs for kickbacks

 

[apsucks]

Humans are animals injecting humans with antipsychotics is the same as lab rats who get injected with gunk. Is unnatural...i wouldnt consider a rat getting eaten by a predator animal abuse unless you're vegetarian. I like to see predators hunt their food

 

[Merek]

Yeah that moderator has been a perp from the beginning. He used to say some stupid shit to me in the summer of 2020 whenever I first started chatting on here

The guy hasn’t been very active while I’ve been in these threads but whenever he comes in he says some questionable stuff for sure, the other mods are usually pretty reasonable though, I mean the guys taken invega before so he’s probably schizo don’t mean that in an offensive way but I get why he might think he’s right about everything.