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Is opiod addiction the worst addiction?

The interesting thing is that not all opioids are created equal. The TI (therapeutic index) of M is 76 - which it is why the 'gold standard' of opioids. But fentanyl has a YI of 400... so why all the fentanyl deaths? Well, because it's so potent and because you have to get to the far end of the TI to get any euphoria. But sufentanil has a TI of ~27,000 while also being some 7.5x more potent.

So why isn't sufentanil (or better, α-methyl sufentanil (some x10 fentanyl with similar TI and duration of 4 hours) THE synthetic opioid of choice? Well, it's not because the precursors are watched. You don't need a single controlled precursor to make it. What you DO need is some pretty practices synthetic technique.

And the people with THAT ability can live quite well without breaking the law.

I did calculate the cost based on a 1kg scale and it works out at about 39¢ per dose, even allowing for paying the chemist some $500 per 8 hour shift.

Sufentanil is the backbone of balanced anesthesia BUT I have seen used in cases of cancer patients whose pain-control window had almost closed.

Sufentanil is the DLR (given it's short duration) but it CAN be used without respiratory support. I've seen people for whom a 500mg dry-amp of diamorphine did not stop the 'unacceptable suffering' (as defined by the RCP. An anesthetist set up a timed-release system so every 10 minutes the patient got another dose.

The patient lived a further 6 weeks. Doesn't sound much, but it's the difference between dying alone and having time to say goodbye and to die with dignity. Opioids are a truly amazing tool and we have gone a long way to perfecting them... because in the UK at least, we rarely use them unless we do not see the patient having an indeterminate life expectancy. Even then, UK doctors are VERY keen that any unused medication is taken back.

BTW the modern hypodermic syringe was invented in 1859, morphine having been isolated in 1803. Morphine was first administered via the hypodermic syringe in 1853. Of course, diacetyl morphine (heroin) was only discovered in 1874 but it was trialled via hypodermic syringe in 1875.

So most certainly those rich and connected to the right doctors COULD IV heroin as early as 1875. I believe Queen Victoria was given IV morphine during childbirth. Even now details are scant but it's QUITE possible that she received IV heroin. It was, of course, only the rich who could. In the Victorian era, laudanum and other opium/morphine medicines were much more common - due to price. Don't forget, by then we KNEW of germ theory but had yet to master truly reliable sterile conditions so poking holes in oneself was risky.

There is a 1916 report on IV heroin abuse, but how long it took to surface, I don't know.
great response. I should clarify, Im aware that needles were used in the 1800s. Im referring to people injecting heroin "recreationally" (as stated) at home daily, not someone being given it for childbirth.
 
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@OpiateKiller is having hostile attitude now, chill out, it is normal conversation to question some vague comparisons. No one has attacked you.
Yes, you are right
I wasn't defending me, just wanted to explain how I see things.
I am sorry. Sometimes can't use English the way I would like, by any means did I tried to sound rude or anything, honest.

I thank you for the advise and I I apologize to @mdaniel80 if my words came as hostile.
Again, I could misinterpretate words.
Sorry one more time.🙏
 
Yes, you are right
I wasn't defending me, just wanted to explain how I see things.
I am sorry. Sometimes can't use English the way I would like, by any means did I tried to sound rude or anything, honest.

I thank you for the advise and I I apologize to @mdaniel80 if my words came as hostile.
Again, I could misinterpretate words.
Sorry one more time.🙏
You were not hostile or rude at all! @Pissed_and_messed was referring to another user. Your english is great and so are you, friend.
 
I think it important to note that the UK had an opiod scene as early as the late 1960s. But the joke was that it was 'a bunch of rich junkies who hung around the public toilets of Piccadilly Circus'. But their wasn't general public awareness.

Why PC? Because their was a 24 hour pharmacy so junkies would queue to get their 'replacement therapy' on the stroke of midnight. No methadone, prescribed M & H.

But it took until the 1990s to find 1 person who remembered that scene...

So who is to say that their weren't IV M & H addicts in the 19th century? Money buys privacy. Those 'rich junkies' found out that some Harley Street doctors would script M & H. In the 19th century their was NO legal control.... so why WOULD their be any record? Anyone with the money could just walk in and buy their M or H and walk out. Those reusable stainless steel hypos lasted for YEARS. Their was no stigma and no media to make it public.

In fact, it was cocaine & morphine being sent to troops in the great war that resulted in the 1916 DORA (defence of the realm act) that was the FIRST legal control. And places like Harrods sold little kits with ads like 'something useful for your friends at the front' that were a hypo, coke and H....

Different times.

Of course, I guess a front-line soldier wasn't a BIG H user until Vietnam in the public's view. I will find images.
 

"During the First World War, department stores, including Harrods [in London], sold kits containing syringes, needles and tubes of cocaine and heroin. It was promoted as a present for friends on the frontline – shoot up to make life in the trenches more bearable and alleviate the horrors of war. As soon as I saw this injecting kit, I bought it then and there for a hundred quid."
 
I think it important to note that the UK had an opiod scene as early as the late 1960s. But the joke was that it was 'a bunch of rich junkies who hung around the public toilets of Piccadilly Circus'. But their wasn't general public awareness.

Why PC? Because their was a 24 hour pharmacy so junkies would queue to get their 'replacement therapy' on the stroke of midnight. No methadone, prescribed M & H.

But it took until the 1990s to find 1 person who remembered that scene...

So who is to say that their weren't IV M & H addicts in the 19th century? Money buys privacy. Those 'rich junkies' found out that some Harley Street doctors would script M & H. In the 19th century their was NO legal control.... so why WOULD their be any record? Anyone with the money could just walk in and buy their M or H and walk out. Those reusable stainless steel hypos lasted for YEARS. Their was no stigma and no media to make it public.

In fact, it was cocaine & morphine being sent to troops in the great war that resulted in the 1916 DORA (defence of the realm act) that was the FIRST legal control. And places like Harrods sold little kits with ads like 'something useful for your friends at the front' that were a hypo, coke and H....

Different times.

Of course, I guess a front-line soldier wasn't a BIG H user until Vietnam in the public's view. I will find images.
This is derailing. This is what Im referring to "There's reports of ppl taking morphine heroin in the years 1890/early 1900s everyday for 20-30 even up to 50 years everyday and they lived fine, with no health problems "
 
I’ve heard this notion before. From a friend who is dead now. Heroin OD
Ok but he took illegal heroin, no wonder he's dead.
You're not getting my point, in my country I have access to 100% pharmaceutical morphine in ampoules of 20mg. In my 10 years using(and abusing it at times) I've probably injected at the very least 3000-4000 times I think. I've have not had a single overdose in that decade, NOT EVEN ONCE.
When u got a reliable pure product of good quality and you maintain a consistent dose everyday, it's super hard to OD unless ure dumb and mix too many drugs.
If heroin was legal and you knew the exact dose you were taking everytime, used in a supervised injection site and had nsrcan at your disposition.
Very few ppl would OD, but that won't happen until they legalize and regulate heroin use in an ideal world. In the meantime, ppl are gonna keep dying injecting dope that is 99% of the time fentanyl. Oh well whatever, for now IV is VERBOTEN if you wanna live.
 
I think what @nznity means is that pharma opis doesn't harm your organs like other drugs do.
Nznty knows they can kill you and also have a nasty wds, because he has been there. So has @OpiateKiller and from there come his metaphores

A good thing heroin has is that it helps people to calm down.
Indeed man, he misunderstood what I meant.
Everything in excess can kill ya, even water hahaha.
If you don't exceed the dose and don't mix with other drugs u can safely take heroin. Prohibition is what makes it exponencially dangerous.
Oh and yeah, it's the best anxyolitlxc/ antidepressant ever. 😉 💯
Cheers. xx
 
thats fucking wild dude 150 80's a fucking month.... dude thats averaging 400mg a day lol and if you had good insurance and these were scripted you would pay like 50$ tops lol what a time to be alive and enjoy oxy before they drove it to where it is now
I was getting them dirt cheap, can’t remember but my source was getting 200 80’s, 150 percets 10’s and 150 Vickadan ES, It was fucking nuts, I was his
best customer, lol. This was going on for at least 3 years, his doctor was his best friend, then one day, the doctor just was gone, left his practice and family, vanished, talk about jonsing
 
This was mid late 1990’s when you could crush them and snort them, talk about good old days! Worked at an airport and my guy would drive around selling them, i was biggest customer, would hold my cap out and he’d put them in hat, lol
 
Ok but he took illegal heroin, no wonder he's dead.
You're not getting my point, in my country I have access to 100% pharmaceutical morphine in ampoules of 20mg. In my 10 years using(and abusing it at times) I've probably injected at the very least 3000-4000 times I think. I've have not had a single overdose in that decade, NOT EVEN ONCE.
When u got a reliable pure product of good quality and you maintain a consistent dose everyday, it's super hard to OD unless ure dumb and mix too many drugs.
If heroin was legal and you knew the exact dose you were taking everytime, used in a supervised injection site and had nsrcan at your disposition.
Very few ppl would OD, but that won't happen until they legalize and regulate heroin use in an ideal world. In the meantime, ppl are gonna keep dying injecting dope that is 99% of the time fentanyl. Oh well whatever, for now IV is VERBOTEN if you wanna live.

Absolutely - if you KNOW your material is100% pure and intended for use with a hypo, it's almost impossible to accidentally OD. The people who tested heroin (the German word for 'heroic') were Hoechst workers and they did NOT stint on dosage. They gave people with no tolerance upto 80mg (a large dose) and the only negative symptoms were nausea and in 1 case vomiting (even within their therapeutic range this is common with opioids).

If we were to simply BUY morphine from Afghanistan, we could provide dry-amps of diamorphine hydrochloride (snort, plug, shoot) for pennies. The 'farm gate' price of opium is $1050-$1200/Kg which would make diamorphine cost about $10000/Gg (until Tazmanian Alkaloids introduce their special strains which would double M content and thus provide Australia with an income).

So, if a full gram of H was just $10 or less.

When you know morphine sulfate wholesales for $695.70/Kg, you see that it's a lost cause. Methadone is $632/Kg and oxycodone $3500/Kg. Most others cost more, it's the VOLUME of these 3 that make them so cheap.

Better, possibly, to just let people buy than to let people die.

Blame Nixon. OK so driving and operating heavy machinery is BAD if someone is doped up - but I've been in cars driven by H addicts and I know I would prefer them to be fixed than rattling.

It's the fact that the state no longer controls happiness. THAT is why it is controlled. Why work 20 hours a day if delivering pizza for 10 hours a day is enough to get the material to solve almost all of lifes problems.

We have in effect placed a low on contentment. And this by people who claim 'religion is the opium of the masses;'. No, opium is the opium of th masses. I can understand if ONLY opium were made legal - THA That been in use for over 2000 years but i do not see a history book that states a society was damaged by the availability of opium. The Romans allowed apothecaries to sell it and at a price that even slaves could afford/ Alcohol did much more harm.
 
Ok but he took illegal heroin, no wonder he's dead.
You're not getting my point, in my country I have access to 100% pharmaceutical morphine in ampoules of 20mg. In my 10 years using(and abusing it at times) I've probably injected at the very least 3000-4000 times I think. I've have not had a single overdose in that decade, NOT EVEN ONCE.
When u got a reliable pure product of good quality and you maintain a consistent dose everyday, it's super hard to OD unless ure dumb and mix too many drugs.
If heroin was legal and you knew the exact dose you were taking everytime, used in a supervised injection site and had nsrcan at your disposition.
Very few ppl would OD, but that won't happen until they legalize and regulate heroin use in an ideal world. In the meantime, ppl are gonna keep dying injecting dope that is 99% of the time fentanyl. Oh well whatever, for now IV is VERBOTEN if you wanna live.
You are referring to OD alone as if that is the only danger. You are missing MY point that calling daily heroin use healthy and safe (as done collectively in this thread) is justification to keep using heroin. You do you, man but lets not pretend heroin isnt a lifestyle with side effects. Also it was a "she". But ya good luck with all that then
 
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You are referring to OD alone as if that is the only danger. You are missing MY point that calling daily heroin use healthy and safe (as done collectively in this thread) is justification to keep using heroin. You do you, man but lets not pretend heroin isnt a lifestyle with side effects

Well as I said before, it's well recorded that a LOT of famous Victorians used opium/laudanum or similar M based product for 20,30 or 40+ years without incident. It hadn't really been calculated until the 1990s when people began to realize that it was quite common. It's just that it wasn't highlighted. If someone took laudanum, we only KNOW because of diaries or in works where the writer highlighted their own use.

I agree that even when done properly, rotating sites, IV is not good - whatever the medicine. Of course, things like insulin are not intended for IV so one can inject into many more places and one CAN do that with opioids without much loss in potency - only loss of initial rush.

But opioid use in itself it safer than almost all of the legal psychoactives. I was surprised to learn that Virginia Woolf use laudanum for decades. It was only because a biographer of Vita Sackville West found a diary entry in which she mentions that VW had brought 2 large bottles of laudanum with her when the 2 went on a romantic holiday together.

It would be rather hard to find a contemporary diarist who would think to mention that their partner had brought a whole box of paracetamol with them. It just was not an issue considered worthy of mention.

I'm not suggesting that VW was stoned for a decade (if so, I reckon she would have been more cheerful) BUT it's quite possible that one reason she DID take it was to aid her mental health. After all, a hugely successful and acclaimed writer who fills her pockets with stones and walks into a river is evidently quite UNHAPPY.

That said - Orlando (1928) might have resulted in some flak, even in the Bloomsbury Group.

Maybe in 100 years paracetamol will be considered a drug of abuse and researchers will seek out any records of famous people using it? Funny that opium has been freely available throughout multiple empires, for over 800 years... only demonized for 100 of those years. I might add that it's toxic & dependence-forming potential was known and it's known that some successful Roman professionals were dependent and it WAS used for the purposes of suicide... especially amongst apothecaries.

There is historical information of apothecaries facing financial ruin using it 2000 years ago. Not for them hemlock, corn cockle, spurge or the other unpleasant poisons. Don't forget that Roman courts could impose HUGE fines ( mean multi-sesterii amounts) BUT if the convicted party (man as woman had little place in Roman law) could avoid the fine if they committed suicide within 28 days... so their was an active market for fatal intoxicants.

Also, I guess, the Roman custom of using lead acetate (sugar of lead) to sweeten cheap wine also promoted a society in which an awful protracted death could be avoided with the application of an appropriate toxic agent. Indeed, those Roman herbalists were very well aware of the best exit...
 
thats a insane price and you def I=aint in the US lol id be doing 500mg a fucking day at that price
They made him sick(oxycotins) so being friends I’m sure he knew he was doing me a favor- he played college football and really did need pain pills, but not that much! 200 oxycontin, 150 percosets, 150 Vicodin es, every month,that’s fucking insane, but his doctor was his best friend,since they were kids. Back then, they claimed OxyContin was non-addictive,yea right, that’s why everyone is addicted to heroin. I remember I turned a friend of my brother-ln law to a little line. He was an ex junkie who did all kinds of heroin at Vietnam, he couldnt believe how fucked up he got with such a little line of it. I just hope everyone on this website realizes that all this fucking dope going around is a lose lose situation.If you don’t kill yourself, you’re gonna fuck up the people that loves you, just for a buzz! I need to practice what I preach no doubt! I wish every the best and try to at least ween off the bullshit you’re putting in your body!!
o
 
Yeah - in the UK doctors are taught that OC is less 'addictive' than codeine.

Go to a pharmacy and instead of 60mg codeine tablets, doctors are giving 5mg OCs. And I mean they prefer it to tramadol!

I am waiting for the media to make it a BIG story - then I will ask for methadone or hydrmorphone for pain. Something NOT in the news. We just do not have the variety of the US. We have DHC... and then M. Nothing in between. No hydrocodone.
 
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