What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[JP28]

I never had such rapid descents like that, but people around me did. One of my friends would feel it for an hour tops, I'd still be wide awake at sunrise.

There would always be someone whose pupils were like planets, where others could have twice as much and just sit there chilling, chewing gum and you could hardly tell they were on anything.

That, aside from the completely wrong assertion that there is something wrong with modern MDMA, is what I don't like about this thread.

MDMA, for me, wasn't about everyone being on the same wavelength. It allowed everyone to be themselves, have their own experience, and that individuality was, paradoxically, what unified us and made conversation and finding new things about each other, interesting.

That is lost on some people though. It's a shame.

You misread part of what I said. I wasn't saying that the awesome rolls I was describing later that night turned into a bad experience. I was describing tabs across time. For the first 2 years I rolled, I had a lot of pure or mostly pure MDMA tabs (at least 120mg, usually more). You could always tell by the taste and a lot of times how it crumbled in your mouth. For a while the "bad" ones weren't horrible yet, they just weren't as good as the purer ones. But they eventually did evolve into complete shit. I would take some and I would hate everything about the way I felt. By the last time I rolled around 2007, the tabs I got were complete shit and there was nothing enjoyable about them at all. I can't speak to modern MDMA, if you can even call it that, since I haven't tried it in 15 years. I don't really care to unless it's MDMA. When did you drop your first tab? The way you describe it sounds like a completely different drug than the MDMA that I used to do. Also, you picked a weird spot to cut off my quote. Without the remaining context, it sounds like something else. I also feel like I need to point out that just because you disagree with the assertion that there is something wrong with modern MDMA doesn't make it fact, it makes it your opinion.

I've had an exhausting couple of days and I've been in the heat all day today, so I'm really having trouble deciphering exactly what you mean in your post. I understand what you are saying, but there's a little cognitive dissonance going on because I would never have described a good experience the way you did which makes me think you probably haven't had any of the ones I'm talking about. On one hand it sounds like you are just expressing your opinion on what others have said in this thread, on the other hand it feels a little condescending toward me because of the way I described how it felt to me when I took good rolls and like all I cared about was the "getting fucked up" part (there absolutely were good and bad rolls around my time and the last time I did it they were either really good or not good at all with very little to no in between). I also don't know what you mean when you say that the experience as you describe it is lost on some people. MDMA to me represents good times, amazing music, and lots of talking, dancing, and making great memories with great friends. We all bonded, we all learned about each other and became closer friends and the walls come completely down, so it's also helped me to be friends with a person I previously could not stand to be around. Those last 2 paragraphs just sound like Greek to me when I think of saying them to describe an MDMA experience.

I'm human and I've been known to make mistakes, so if I misread or perceived this completely wrong, call me an asshole and please accept my apology. I can admit when I'm wrong. It's just how my brain took it in - without the subtleties of tone and the inflection of voice, it's sometimes difficult to tell.

Also, if current MDMA is around and good, please describe it to me. I'm not being a smartass, I'm sincerely asking. I am just of the opinion that nothing can even come close to duplicating the effect of real, pure to mostly pure MDMA. Magical is the only way I know how to describe it and that's not a word I use to describe anything. Bottom line, if someone had some pure MDMA, it's next to impossible to believe that they would have anything other than an amazing time and I can't imagine anything being lost on anyone.


Jay "Not an Asshole" Hawk

 

[unodelacosa]

the completely wrong assertion that there is something wrong with modern MDMA

Exactly.

if there is good stuff still around, where is it?

You know we can't source MDMA on here, so I can only speak in generalities regarding the US. I can find it on the darknet after sifting carefully through vendors and reading 3rd party site's reviews, and starting with small amounts to minimize financial loss should it turn out to be fake and/or crap.

I can also find it in many different cities across the country – e.g.: LA, SF, Phoenix, Vegas, Austin, Chicago, NYC/Brooklyn, Baltimore, DC, Richmond, Asheville, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Miami, to list a few.

And those of you who say you've had the good stuff, how does it fit with my description of my experiences above?

It's funny because what you refer to as "back in the day" is a later date than what I think of as back in the day – to me that's the mid-90s. But I'm sure to others yet, that's the mid-80s, so it's likely a generational thing. Something I love about the culture surrounding MDMA is the intergenerational connection it builds.

And please nobody use the word tolerance or burnout as the reasons for shit pills. I didn't start till around 24-25. I was (and am) the nerd taking care of myself and everyone and being healthy. Hell, I was on here reading 2-3 hours/day. I'm sceptical because I can't even find real shit (lsd, klonopin) on the dark web.

The fact that you can't find things on the darknet without encountering fake drugs is what puts your theory into question, to me anyway. I've rarely been sold fake shit from the DNMs. I take a little time to research the vendor before I place an order, and occasionally I'll take a risk on a new vendor with smaller amounts, but I accept that risk and have mostly been lucky and/or clever in avoiding scammers.

Morons are selling fake shit everywhere. Maybe I've been outta the game too long.

Nah, doesn't matter, the game is essentially still the same, even if the technology has evolved. Shitbaggery is just as rampant, you just need better methods of weeding that shit out before purchasing perhaps. It does appear the UK and EU are experiencing something of an MDMA draught, but as I'm not there, I cannot speak with certainty on that topic. Whatever the case, good luck, my guy. I'm confident you'll find what you're looking for eventually.

@ThreePointCircle – good points; I agree.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

You misread part of what I said. I wasn't saying that the awesome rolls I was describing later that night turned into a bad experience. I was describing tabs across time. For the first 2 years I rolled, I had a lot of pure or mostly pure MDMA tabs (at least 120mg, usually more).

Okay, you cleared that up. That was the only part of my post where I was responding to you.

But they eventually did evolve into complete shit. I would take some and I would hate everything about the way I felt. By the last time I rolled around 2007, the tabs I got were complete shit and there was nothing enjoyable about them at all.

So was it MDMA or not? Because you suggest MDMA can't do that, and if it was something else, that's not what is being discussed here.

can't speak to modern MDMA, if you can even call it that, since I haven't tried it in 15 years.

Not sure what part of "today's MDMA" grabbed your attention then. A lot has changed in availability, testing and online reviewing in 15 years.

The way you describe it sounds like a completely different drug than the MDMA that I used to do.

I would hope so since I never had the complaints about it that you do.

Also, you picked a weird spot to cut off my quote. Without the remaining context, it sounds like something else.

That's how quoting works. You respond to a targeted section of text, but I would hope that simple misunderstanding has already been cleared up.

I also feel like I need to point out that just because you disagree with the assertion that there is something wrong with modern MDMA doesn't make it fact, it makes it your opinion.

An opinion that is at least backed by drug testing agencies across the world. Sorry, but the burden of proof here doesn't fall on me.

I've had an exhausting couple of days and I've been in the heat all day today, so I'm really having trouble deciphering exactly what you mean in your post. I understand what you are saying, but there's a little cognitive dissonance going on because I would never have described a good experience the way you did which makes me think you probably haven't had any of the ones I'm talking about.

I have gone over my history with MDMA, am not going reiterate it here. In my post, I was highlighting personal variables I've observed over the years. If you don't want to believe that's possible (despite this entire thread showcasing them), that's up to you.

one hand it sounds like you are just expressing your opinion on what others have said in this thread

I was.

, on the other hand it feels a little condescending toward me because of the way I described how it felt to me when I took good rolls and like all I cared about was the "getting fucked up" part

I absolutely wasn't.

(there absolutely were good and bad rolls around my time and the last time I did it they were either really good or not good at all with very little to no in between). I also don't know what you mean when you say that the experience as you describe it is lost on some people.

I think personal variables are lost on some people.

MDMA to me represents good times, amazing music, and lots of talking, dancing, and making great memories with great friends. We all bonded, we all learned about each other and became closer friends and the walls come completely down, so it's also helped me to be friends with a person I previously could not stand to be around.

Cool.

Those last 2 paragraphs just sound like Greek to me when I think of saying them to describe an MDMA experience.

Some people believe their experience is universal and applies to everyone, in every situation. When their own expectations aren't met, they blame faulty molecules and wild conspiracies rather than accepting that their preconceived notions may need augmenting.

I'm human and I've been known to make mistakes, so if I misread or perceived this completely wrong, call me an asshole and please accept my apology. I can admit when I'm wrong. It's just how my brain took it in - without the subtleties of tone and the inflection of voice, it's sometimes difficult to tell.

Okay, cool.

Also, if current MDMA is around and good, please describe it to me. I'm not being a smartass, I'm sincerely asking. I am just of the opinion that nothing can even come close to duplicating the effect of real, pure to mostly pure MDMA.

I don't know what makes you think it isn't around if you haven't tried it in 15 years.

Magical is the only way I know how to describe it and that's not a word I use to describe anything. Bottom line, if someone had some pure MDMA, it's next to impossible to believe that they would have anything other than an amazing time and I can't imagine anything being lost on anyone.

Even though it's been shown in both clinical trials and people here experiencing dysphoria and a desire to retreat after consuming MDMA. What you call magic is a drug causing chemical reactions capable of causing, what are considered, paradoxical reactions.

Good day.

 

[bingey]

My first pill was a white triangular mitsubishi in 2003-2004

Seems like the quality of the drug has only gone up.

That being said the experience of rolling is different , just less fun overal but I blame getting older really.

 

[new2drugs]

My first pill was a white triangular mitsubishi in 2003-2004

Seems like the quality of the drug has only gone up.

That being said the experience of rolling is different , just less fun overal but I blame getting older really.

That sounds like a losing the magic thing?

 

[bingey]

That sounds like a losing the magic thing?

Probably but the last times I did MDMA I was also addicted to amphetamine and opiates so perhaps that influenced the experience as well.

 

[unodelacosa]

Probably but the last times I did MDMA I was also addicted to amphetamine and opiates so perhaps that influenced the experience as well.

Yep, that’ll do it. I’ve found that many stimulants tend to fuck off an MDMA roll: amphetamine, cocaine, and meth have all done this to me. NDRIs especially but also NDRAs.

Meanwhile opiates are CNS depressants that provide a degree anxiolysis and generally work against MDMA as well. It’s no wonder you had a poor experience trying to roll.

 

[unodelacosa]

That sounds like a losing the magic thing?

It’s worth noting that Dr. Shulgin’s “++++” states he described as being experiences that are not replicable on-demand. One can never guarantee a ++++. Any other plus from + to +++ should be replicable but sometimes everything aligns just right in one’s world and a mind blowing experience occurs.

A plus four experience on MDMA is not guaranteed every time you take the drug. As has been pointed out on this thread: set & setting, personal biochemistry, hormones, medication, other recreational drugs, mental illness, placebo, counterfeit MDMA, untrustworthy and/or dishonest drug testing services, and many other factors can all play a role in one’s MDMA experiences and expectations.

Too often, I see people making the mistake of thinking that just because something happens to them and is then corroborated by a half dozen other people that’s all the evidence they need, and they assume this means the phenomenon is universal. I know it’s frustrating when you can’t seem to find something that you previously could find and enjoy with no problem. But this doesn’t mean the universe has become devoid of all “real” MDMA and that anyone saying otherwise has never had a ++++ MDMA experience.

@Kaden_Nite knows what’s up.

 

[unodelacosa]

That sounds like a losing the magic thing?

I think there’s a difference between what’s called “losing the magic”—which is often the result of not allowing tolerance and downregulation to wear off—and novelty wearing. That is to say: the first time I rolled hardAF, just blowing up and feeling the love, the music, the vibe, the empathy, the nystagmus, light shows, and the unity of the rave scene, I was so mindblown that it had a profound effect on my life and its trajectory. It felt like I was becoming best friends with everyone I encountered, and I had never lived so fully in the moment

Within a year of being in this scene, I learned not to gush so much to strangers or make best friends with everyone. And I recognized that the first time I rolled was very special, because of the novelty of it, aligning with an excellent night out, accompanied by some of my best friends at the time who were also rolling and having similar experiences. I don’t consider this loss of magic. I consider this the wearing off of novelty if that makes sense.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Yep, that’ll do it. I’ve found that many stimulants tend to fuck off an MDMA roll: amphetamine, cocaine, and meth have all done this to me. NDRIs especially but also NDRAs.

Meanwhile opiates are CNS depressants that provide a degree anxiolysis and generally work against MDMA as well. It’s no wonder you had a poor experience trying to roll.

yeaaa, once did molly on amph. well I guess it was comfy and bright, but that's it.
Next time did half the amount without amph, some weeks later only, and it was great trip.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I think there’s a difference between what’s called “losing the magic”—which is often the result of not allowing tolerance and downregulation to wear off—and novelty wearing. That is to say: the first time I rolled hardAF, just blowing up and feeling the love, the music, the vibe, the empathy, the nystagmus, light shows, and the unity of the rave scene, I was so mindblown that it had a profound effect on my life and its trajectory. It felt like I was becoming best friends with everyone I encountered, and I had never lived so fully in the moment

Within a year of being in this scene, I learned not to gush so much to strangers or make best friends with everyone. And I recognized that the first time I rolled was very special, because of the novelty of it, aligning with an excellent night out, accompanied by some of my best friends at the time who were also rolling and having similar experiences. I don’t consider this loss of magic. I consider this the wearing off of novelty if that makes sense.

Fair to say that euphoria and being a stimulant should be universal for mdma?

 

[G_Chem]

It’s worth noting that Dr. Shulgin’s “++++” states he described as being experiences that are not replicable on-demand. One can never guarantee a ++++. Any other plus from + to +++ should be replicable but sometimes everything aligns just right in one’s world and a mind blowing experience occurs.

A plus four experience on MDMA is not guaranteed every time you take the drug. As has been pointed out on this thread: set & setting, personal biochemistry, hormones, medication, other recreational drugs, mental illness, placebo, counterfeit MDMA, untrustworthy and/or dishonest drug testing services, and many other factors can all play a role in one’s MDMA experiences and expectations.

Too often, I see people making the mistake of thinking that just because something happens to them and is then corroborated by a half dozen other people that’s all the evidence they need, and they assume this means the phenomenon is universal. I know it’s frustrating when you can’t seem to find something that you previously could find and enjoy with no problem. But this doesn’t mean the universe has become devoid of all “real” MDMA and that anyone saying otherwise has never had a ++++ MDMA experience.

@Kaden_Nite knows what’s up.

Yea the term ++++ gets thrown around a lot to convey a very potent experience but a true plus4 is an experience people will only have once or twice in their life if they are lucky. Some people can eat these drugs their whole life and never have one.

For me, the only experience I can think of would be my first MDMA roll. From then on my personality changed, I realized love and acceptance is something I want even in my sober reality. A true ++++ will change the very fabric of your being.

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

Fair to say that euphoria and being a stimulant should be universal for mdma?

In one sense, yes, MDMA can and should be classified as both a euphoriant and a stimulant, but it's a little trickier than just that. Firstly, there are different forms of corporeal, drug-induced euphoria. You've got GABAergic euphoria (think Xanax, GHB, or alcohol), dopamine & adrenaline reuptake inhibiting euphoria (like cocaine, Ritalin, cathinones), dopamine & adrenaline releasing agent euphoria (amphetamine-class stimulants), NMDA-receptor antagonist euphoria (Ketamine, PCP), µ-opioid agonist euphoria (morphine-derivatives, opioid painkillers), serotonin-releasing agent euphoria (psychedelics), and so on and so forth. To me it seems like MDMA derives its unique euphoria from combining several of these – it is at once an anxiolytic, a stimulant, a psychedelic, & something of a serotonergic steam-roller whose effects are virtually impossible to replicate via any other psychotropic agents.

Also, consider that while the majority of ppl will respond predictably to MDMA in a manner that we would expect, there are plenty of exceptions and outliers to this group, enough to warrant eschewing the term "universal" when discussing people's response to MDMA's effects and their opinions on said response. Just because >50% of people taking MDMA feel euphoric does not guarantee everyone will feel the same way. It's easy to forget this though because the experience itself can be powerfully persuasive.

 

[unodelacosa]

Fair to say that euphoria and being a stimulant should be universal for mdma?

Answering this a second time, I think it's fair to say that one should expect to experience varying degrees of CNS stimulation, anxiolysis, moderate euphoria, mydriasis (dilated pupils), bruxism (teeth-grinding), nystagmus (eye jittering), thermoregulation suppression, and some minor ataxia (loss of coordination/balance) among other things, all of which are directly proportional to dose, and none of which are necessarily guaranteed. And there are some people who exhibit paradoxical response mechanisms, and I also feel like the comedown tends to produce a strong opposite effect in many people. In other words, rolling seems like it's draining after it's over and tends to produce somnolence at that point.

EDIT: and I should also point out that sometimes people consider the effects of MDMA to be aggressively speedy, anxiogenic, dysphoric, and/or emotionally perturbing. Doesn't appear to be common, but nor is it but so uncommon.

 

[Rectify]

Conspiracy on the part of distributors who no longer wish to supply users in the United States with legitimate MDMA pills for whatever reason?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Conspiracy on the part of distributors who no longer wish to supply users in the United States with legitimate MDMA pills for whatever reason?

Well since the US seems to be much better off than Europe I would say no. I assume its just that the producing gangs in Holland have hit upon a procedure to churn out a lot of crap cheaply and somehow are dominating the online markets.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

Well since the US seems to be much better off than Europe I would say no. I assume its just that the producing gangs in Holland have hit upon a procedure to churn out a lot of crap cheaply and somehow are dominating the online markets.

It wouldn't be 'dominating markets' if people don't like it. Saying that Euro MDMA is crap is like saying that the weed in Amsterdam is low quality. A generalising statement that may well be a matter of opinion, but really; if highly regarded, positively reviewed product is what you consider crap, maybe that product just isn't for you.

Conspiracy

No.

 

[unodelacosa]

Conspiracy on the part of distributors who no longer wish to supply users in the United States with legitimate MDMA pills for whatever reason?

That doesn't make any sense on a number of levels, just theoretically, nvm my own actual world experiences to the contrary in the U.S. It also ignores the fact that MDMA continues to be produced domestically as well as imported from Europe and other areas. Besides what purpose could any such conspiracy possibly serve? You don't even offer a possible motive for such a conspiracy. Lastly where's the data to back up such an opinion?

 

[AutoTripper]

MDMA can and should be classified as both a euphoriant and a stimulant

I always regarded/qualified it as a psychedelic too.

At high doses it truly is.

But then we spent eons in UK at least taking lucky dips re ratios of MDMA/MDE/MDA so maybe a scene with pure MDMA only would have altered this conception.

 

[unodelacosa]

I always regarded/qualified it as a psychedelic too.

At high doses it truly is.

But then we spent eons in UK at least taking lucky dips re ratios of MDMA/MDE/MDA so maybe a scene with pure MDMA only would have altered this conception.

Yeah one of the earliest pills to blow up in the UK scene were those white snowballs that had something like 220 mg MDA in them. Two of them would have people almost in a delirium with full on hallucinations in addition to Mescaline-like visuals. How nutty. But yeah I have to agree with you on the psychedelic tip re: MDMA / MDA higher doses. Definitely makes lights and visuals hypnotic and trance-like in a psychedelic way, and there's definitely something to be said for the fact that MDMA, MDA, et al. are all serotonergic and so are psychedelics like LSD and psilocin.

That said, the action is different.

• MDMA is characterized by massive 5-HT release across the cortex allowing serotonin to activate dopamine sites in the brain due to the spillover. This activates pleasure centers and some psychedelic sites get light-to-moderate activity along the way.
• Meanwhile serotonergic psychedelics get their activity chiefly through direct agonism of the 5HT2A and 5HT2C serotonin receptor subtypes. Some psychedelics like DMT seem to concentrate on just a few sites and then there are more complex molecules like LSD which affects a wide number of receptors, not just serotonin but also dopamine, sigma, and norepinephrine – and a quite a few subtypes within each type, which is a part of why LSD is so potent.

For me, the day after I take MDMA is usually kinda rough. I feel depleted and unmotivated. The day after I trip, after usually sleeping soundly (unlike with MDMA) I wake up feeling refreshed and wonderful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯