Does running on opiates actually get you fitter?

@RDP89 all I know is on high doses of kratom i notice my 2nd wind kicks in immediately and it's easy for me to run a 5k straight without having to take a walk break. It's a very clear difference to me.
 
Snafu in the Void said:
@RDP89 all I know is on high doses of kratom i notice my 2nd wind kicks in immediately and it's easy for me to run a 5k straight without having to take a walk break. It's a very clear difference to me.
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Well it does make sense. An big part of an endurance race such as a 5k is ignoring/dealing with pain. So when you are blocking pain signals with opioids you don’t have to do that, it’s already being done for you. Of course there’s also the stimulating side of kratom as you mentioned which can help in it’s own way. For me the nausea started to outweigh any positive effect the further I got into the run. That and I really didn’t like not being clear headed while running. It didn’t feel the same. Like the same neurochemicals weren’t being released.

I did get quit a good effect on a long(23 mile) training run once with DL- Phenylalanine. The L phenylalanine gives stimulation, while the Dextro isomer gives painkilling effects through it’s action on enkephalins(at least that is the proposed mechanism). I was going to do the whole run at easy effort but ended up doing it progressive and just running faster and faster with each mile. Started on a 7:30/ mile pace and by the end it was around 6:30. I was like “whoa that’s some powerful shit”! I had only taken it because it’s useful for tapering caffeine and had forgotten all about the painkilling effect.
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
yea I think in ultra-anything drugs commonly won't just give benefit because they either prevent you from utilizing and generating energy or use it too early.
That being said I sometimes drink beer or two if ride is going unsatisfyingly. Or just for the sake of it. But it is not precisely performance thing.
Although I've heard beer is recovery drink, even if not for alcohol.
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You’re a cyclist?
 
RDP89 said:
Well it does make sense. An big part of an endurance race such as a 5k is ignoring/dealing with pain. So when you are blocking pain signals with opioids you don’t have to do that, it’s already being done for you. Of course there’s also the stimulating side of kratom as you mentioned which can help in it’s own way. For me the nausea started to outweigh any positive effect the further I got into the run. That and I really didn’t like not being clear headed while running. It didn’t feel the same. Like the same neurochemicals weren’t being released.

I did get quit a good effect on a long(23 mile) training run once with DL- Phenylalanine. The L phenylalanine gives stimulation, while the Dextro isomer gives painkilling effects through it’s action on enkephalins(at least that is the proposed mechanism). I was going to do the whole run at easy effort but ended up doing it progressive and just running faster and faster with each mile. Started on a 7:30/ mile pace and by the end it was around 6:30. I was like “whoa that’s some powerful shit”! I had only taken it because it’s useful for tapering caffeine and had forgotten all about the painkilling effect.
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Phenylalanine: dietary amino acid; converted into Tyrosine by PAH. It's also converted by AACD into phenyethylamine (PEA). Phenylalanine only has direct biologic effects if you can't metabolize it. Any effects from phenylalanine come from its metabolites, tyrosine and PEA. I'm not sure what controls the ratio of tyrosine to PEA; possibly the amount of tyrosine present, and possibly the availability of P5P (the active form of vitamin B6).

What complicates things is that tyrosine, in turn, can be converted into tyramine, which has effects similar to PEA.


Phenylethylamine/phenethylamine/PEA: Easily crosses blood-brain barrier, but rapidly broken down in the body (half-life of about 10 minutes). Effects similar to amphetamines, although those with more experience with PEA can give you more details. It's broken down by MAO-B so it's often combined with selegeline (deprenyl) to extend its half-life.

Tyramine and PEA are both agonists of TAAR1 (Trace Amino-Acid Receptor). This receptor was only discovered recently but it has a lot of significance for us.

www.longecity.org

Phenylalanine vs Phenylethylamine - Brain Health

Phenylalanine vs Phenylethylamine - posted in Brain Health: The title says it, actually. More specifically, regarding oral consumption - what are the effects of these two and are there any differences in results?
www.longecity.org www.longecity.org
PEA has also activity in VMAT2. It affects directly to dopamine, serotonine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine. Amphetamine is alpha-methyl-PEA.
PEA is also endogenously excreted in exercise by huge amounts. I have done exogenous PEA with MAO-b-i, and similarities are remarkable IMHO. Of course runner's high also has other factors, probably endorphins, enkephaline and anandamide at least.
So you were essentially pre-loading with runner's speed.
 
@RDP89 the boost I appreciate from kratom feels almost identical to the adrenaline I get after the first 3km of a run. Once those natural endorphins kick in. It also enhances those. I love it.
 
The largest I've gotten in terms of lean muscle mass, which was pretty large for a natural body builder, was when I was bombing large doses of tianeptine a few times a week. Sometimes even in the gym.

When i would take it in the gym it would definitely improve endurance, while having a slight negative effect on strength. Other problem was that form suffers as a result of the mind-body disconnection that occurs with any significant dose of a narcotic.

Where it did help me however was eating. For me, eating is the worst part of bodybuilding because of the large amount of food required to both gain and maintain muscle. I am not a food person and have a bad appetite/general disinterest in food. Opioids stimulate my appetite.

But I think this is probably only viable with atypical opioids, like kratom, tianeptine, etc. I recall steroid using bodybuilders used to be into Talwin
 
neversickanymore said:
I have an open mind.. load some links up
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negrogesic said:
The largest I've gotten in terms of lean muscle mass, which was pretty large for a natural body builder, was when I was bombing large doses of tianeptine a few times a week. Sometimes even in the gym.

When i would take it in the gym it would definitely improve endurance, while having a slight negative effect on strength. Other problem was that form suffers as a result of the mind-body disconnection that occurs with any significant dose of a narcotic.

Where it did help me however was eating. For me, eating is the worst part of bodybuilding because of the large amount of food required to both gain and maintain muscle. I am not a food person and have a bad appetite/general disinterest in food. Opioids stimulate my appetite.

But I think this is probably only viable with atypical opioids, like kratom, tianeptine, etc. I recall steroid using bodybuilders used to be into Talwin
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Shit, when I was around 21 years old I had gotten way out of shape because of an injury. Once my rotator cuff healed I went bonkers utilizing my knowledge/experience at the time.

In about 6 months I went from 202.5lbs at 33% bodyfat to 176lbs at 11% bodyfat.

My meals were insanely dialed in, eating 6-8 times daily, used a tonne of supplements, 74mg of ephedrine daily in divided doses, 400mg caffeine in divided doses. I only drank 3 things, undenatured whey isolate, black coffee and water. I only did HIIT cardio. I was fuckin dialed in.

Then I added 600mg/week test enenthate, 300mg deca/week, and 20mg per day of methyl one testosterone.

Holy shit did that change things. I also had very extensive knowledge of steroids because of my field at the time and the athletes/bodybuilders I trained, so I did everything really proper.

But it was insane how fast I got up to 192lbs still at 11% bodyfat.

This is neither here nor there, but it's a fun memory lol

#not sure why the top post is there? My apologies
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
Phenylalanine: dietary amino acid; converted into Tyrosine by PAH. It's also converted by AACD into phenyethylamine (PEA). Phenylalanine only has direct biologic effects if you can't metabolize it. Any effects from phenylalanine come from its metabolites, tyrosine and PEA. I'm not sure what controls the ratio of tyrosine to PEA; possibly the amount of tyrosine present, and possibly the availability of P5P (the active form of vitamin B6).

What complicates things is that tyrosine, in turn, can be converted into tyramine, which has effects similar to PEA.


Phenylethylamine/phenethylamine/PEA: Easily crosses blood-brain barrier, but rapidly broken down in the body (half-life of about 10 minutes). Effects similar to amphetamines, although those with more experience with PEA can give you more details. It's broken down by MAO-B so it's often combined with selegeline (deprenyl) to extend its half-life.

Tyramine and PEA are both agonists of TAAR1 (Trace Amino-Acid Receptor). This receptor was only discovered recently but it has a lot of significance for us.

www.longecity.org

Phenylalanine vs Phenylethylamine - Brain Health

Phenylalanine vs Phenylethylamine - posted in Brain Health: The title says it, actually. More specifically, regarding oral consumption - what are the effects of these two and are there any differences in results?
www.longecity.org www.longecity.org
PEA has also activity in VMAT2. It affects directly to dopamine, serotonine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine. Amphetamine is alpha-methyl-PEA.
PEA is also endogenously excreted in exercise by huge amounts. I have done exogenous PEA with MAO-b-i, and similarities are remarkable IMHO. Of course runner's high also has other factors, probably endorphins, enkephaline and anandamide at least.
So you were essentially pre-loading with runner's speed.
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No, I took DL-Phenylalanine, not Phenylethylamine. I do know the difference between the two and I’m not confused as to which I’m talking about, lol. Yes, I’m aware that L-phenylalanine only affects dopamine and norepinephrine through metabolism into tyrosine. However I think the boost in endurance was more from the D isomer which is not found in nature unlike L-phenylalanine and is believed to exert it’s analgesic effects through blockage of enkephalin degradation by the enzyme carboxypeptidase A.
 
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TheUltimateFixx said:
RUNNING on opiates -?

... Errr no. They'll make me wanna curl up in a tree root for a snooze halfway through my run.
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Ha ha! I thought that might be the general reply. But it’s actually works. Obviously very dose dependent though.

So the common opinion seems to be that this is simply a case of alleviating the discomfort of running, making it easier to go faster. I think that’s probably correct and even go further to say that running while euphoric of course makes you go faster, it’s like running on clouds.

I still have that nagging feeling that it’s a false economy though. That if I trained for a marathon high, then tried to run one sober, that all that training wouldn’t stack up somehow. It’s really hard to separate body from mind though…
 
It works to a degree as I stated earliest, but also has massive downsides.

You see it in sports all the time, even in training. Ie.

If you sprint a 4.48 naturally
Then theyll add in 7.5mg oxycodone
You run a 4.42
Then lower the dose over time, rinse and repeat.

The end result is you can now run a 4.43 naturally

Add in any functional drug and this is true in alot of sports
 
Endopharm said:
It works to a degree as I stated earliest, but also has massive downsides.

You see it in sports all the time, even in training. Ie.

If you sprint a 4.48 naturally
Then theyll add in 7.5mg oxycodone
You run a 4.42
Then lower the dose over time, rinse and repeat.

The end result is you can now run a 4.43 naturally

Add in any functional drug and this is true in alot of sports
Click to expand...
Is there any evidence that it works that way with any drug??
 
lswdirel said:
Ha ha! I thought that might be the general reply. But it’s actually works. Obviously very dose dependent though.

So the common opinion seems to be that this is simply a case of alleviating the discomfort of running, making it easier to go faster. I think that’s probably correct and even go further to say that running while euphoric of course makes you go faster, it’s like running on clouds.

I still have that nagging feeling that it’s a false economy though. That if I trained for a marathon high, then tried to run one sober, that all that training wouldn’t stack up somehow. It’s really hard to separate body from mind though…
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You also wouldn’t get anything out of marathon training on opioids that you wouldn’t get off. And I suspect it would be quite the opposite. While you would probably get mild to moderate performance boost from a proper opioid dose with low tolerance, over time an opioid dependence would probably only hinder training.
 
RDP89 said:
Is there any evidence that it works that way with any drug??
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I'd highly doubt it as it's highly illegal.

But I've watched it happened alot over the past 24 years.

Same goes for the prohormones and prosteroids we developed and used 4 or 5 years prior to Patrick Arnold getting arrested after the 2006 olympics(which was rediculous because what he did at the time was legal, maybe not ethical, but certainly legal.

Lotsa of those drugs were just redeveloped using a very rare book by Vida called "anaabolic and androgens" which had 10s of thousands of anabolic, androgens and how they compared to testosterone as a base.

One being the craziest steroid I've ever seen dubbed methyltrienolone. If I remember correctly its 10000 times more anabolic than testosterone at a mere 100mcg dose.

I'm rambling, I apologize
 
Training high on cannabis is a regular thing - there's a whole school of brazilian jiu-jitsu where they all get high and then have training sessions. Says it helps them relax and move better.
 
AffaAhoy said:
This is not advised as the risks of injury is going to shoot through the roof. When something hurts enough, a joint for example, you would stop running. On opiates you might be able to run until you have an injury.
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This is so true i for years would smoke some heroin in the gym car park not to nod but just to be totally focused torn muscles 2 bad injuries doing deadlifts you dont feel twinges that would normally make you stop you dont feel until it does major damage
 
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