The Last Covid-19 Megathread v. Hopefully...

[Jabberwocky]

What do you mean by "temporary freedom"?

Over in the UK, where we have a better vaccination rate, we have all of our freedoms back. maybe slight restrictions on travel (but the previous restrictions didn't stop me going to morocco and greece last year, just added a slight cost), i dunno i'm going to lisbon in 2 weeks i'll let you know. but everything i could do pre covid, i can do now, with no sign in, mask, nothing. so the loss of freedom was temporary.

Long thread with over 30 examples about how a lot of current vax research isn't focused on safety/effectiveness, and is instead on how to get more people to get shots, that we and they (gov't/pharma) know aren't effective for current variants.

what qualifies a psychologist to research the safety/effectiveness of a vaccine? or a specialist in health education? public health researchers? health economists?

did you look up a single one of the papers in that thread?

of the ones i looked up, literally not a single one has a single author qualified to assess the safety and effectiveness of a vaccine. public health and psychological factors of vaccine uptake are legitimate research topics.

eta: if you didn't want to look silly you could have fact checked yourself by doing a google scholar search on the safety/efficacy of the covid vaccines and filtering to only 2022 papers:

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

looks like an ongoing area of research to me.

 

[Electrum1]

Brazil's COVID crisis reaches "catastrophe" as daily death toll is highest in world

CBS News national correspondent Manuel Bojorquez reports from Sao Paulo on the growing coronavirus crisis in Brazil.

www.cbsnews.com

Brazil's COVID crisis reaches "catastrophe" as daily death toll is highest in world​

Brazil has had what is arguably the worst pandemic policy response in the world, driven by its far-right president, Jair Bolsonaro. The president’s choices in handling COVID-19 have triggered an unparalleled tragedy in the country, with potentially catastrophic implications worldwide.

COVID-19 in Brazil: how Jair Bolsonaro created a calamity | Feature from King's College London

www.kcl.ac.uk

there is an obvious link from arbitrary "total freedom" to covid death rates

Again, I didn't mention those two countries for their death rates, I mentioned them for not taking away rights from their citizens.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Again, I didn't mention those two countries for their death rates, I mentioned them for not taking away rights from their citizens.

I just tried to show how there is a direct connection between those two things.

"Second hand smoke causes cancer, but I'm glad I didn't ban smoking in public places, FREEDOM!"?

let's talk about his; when does absolute (arbitrary) freedom end up hurting other people's freedom?

total freedom takes away other people's total freedom, does it not?

what is freedom?

civil rights, or LITERAL freedom (free will)?

 

[Electrum1]

Over in the UK, where we have a better vaccination rate, we have all of our freedoms back. maybe slight restrictions on travel (but the previous restrictions didn't stop me going to morocco and greece last year, just added a slight cost), i dunno i'm going to lisbon in 2 weeks i'll let you know. but everything i could do pre covid, i can do now, with no sign in, mask, nothing. so the loss of freedom was temporary.

Do you guys have to show vax cards over there, or did they do away with that already? I remember reading about some EU countries getting rid of that.

what qualifies a psychologist to research the safety/effectiveness of a vaccine? or a specialist in health education? public health researchers? health economists?

did you look up a single one of the papers in that thread?

of the ones i looked up, literally not a single one has a single author qualified to assess the safety and effectiveness of a vaccine

The ones in the thread I posted a link to? Those were about vaccine uptake. I don't think he was trying to assess safety and effectiveness, he was just pointing out how many are focused on vax uptake.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Do you guys have to show vax cards over there, or did they do away with that already? I remember reading about some EU countries getting rid of that.

nope and we've never had to show them.

though poor, our education system is better than that in the US, its part of why US PhDs take so long compared to the rest of the world. i'd wager this contributed significantly to our higher vaccination rate and thus ability to drop all safety measures already.

The ones in the thread I posted a link to? Those were about vaccine uptake. I don't think he was trying to assess safety and effectiveness, he was just pointing out how many are focused on vax uptake.

you personally said that a lot of research wasn't focused on safety/effectiveness. i pointed out that no one in the papers in that thread is qualified to comment on such. you made a straw man. it failed.

is vaccine uptake not a legitimate topic of research? what does it have to do on whether or not a vaccine is safe/effective? if the answer is nothing, then why did you make the link?

 

[Electrum1]

i pointed out that no one in the papers in that thread is qualified to comment on such. you made a straw man. it failed.

I don't believe you looked up the qualifications of all the people in over 30 papers that quickly.

is vaccine uptake not a legitimate topic of research? what does it have to do on whether or not a vaccine is safe/effective? if the answer is nothing, then why did you make the link?

Why would increasing vaccine uptake be important when the vaccines aren't effective against the current variants, while still also not having long term safety data?

 

[imo_incolae]

Over in the UK, where we have a better vaccination rate, we have all of our freedoms back. maybe slight restrictions on travel (but the previous restrictions didn't stop me going to morocco and greece last year, just added a slight cost), i dunno i'm going to lisbon in 2 weeks i'll let you know. but everything i could do pre covid, i can do now, with no sign in, mask, nothing. so the loss of freedom was temporary.


what qualifies a psychologist to research the safety/effectiveness of a vaccine? or a specialist in health education? public health researchers? health economists?

did you look up a single one of the papers in that thread?

of the ones i looked up, literally not a single one has a single author qualified to assess the safety and effectiveness of a vaccine. public health and psychological factors of vaccine uptake are legitimate research topics.

eta: if you didn't want to look silly you could have fact checked yourself by doing a google scholar search on the safety/efficacy of the covid vaccines and filtering to only 2022 papers:

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

looks like an ongoing area of research to me.

It depends what you think freedom is. If you're not shackled to a wall then you are free, right?
You are free to THINK you are free. And so long as it's just thoughts it's okay. As soon as you start to question things, just like people are doing in this topic, you're all of a sudden not that free anymore. Or at least, you are but you must suffer the fate of no longer being accepted in society. Is that freedom? If one side is right and one side is wrong and the wrong side is demonized and segregated from the so-called right, is that freedom? What happens when the so-called right turns towards the so-called wrong and changes their mind, are we all now fucked? It gets pretty pathetic when you start asking these questions. It's like a game you play in the school playground. The rules are bullshit.

Also, the digital infrastructure that was bolted in place is now here to stay. The next few years you will see that infrastructure start to surface and it become a daily part of your life. You were told the 'old normal' is gone and the 'new normal' is here to stay. I know it can be difficult to keep on top of everything you've been told but if you think you are free you are contradicting yourself because you were told by people you trust that your old way of life ie your freedoms, liberties and way of life before COVID-19 happened was no more. That was drilled into you. You were told over and over again that you will accept this new reality. You didn't have a choice, you are told if you don't do it you will die as will everybody else. Is that freedom? There was no vote but you waved goodbye to a large portion of your normal reality.

It's a bit odd that all that was said for it to be taken away, don't you think? Such an extreme situation but now it's just magically disappeared?
And it's because it hasn't been taken away. The narrative has simply shifted and the infrastructure that was created is now being molded for everyday life instead. You will start to see that infrastructure come out into the open but in ways that no longer cater to the COVID-19 script. It's just about finding a way to refine the digital control systems and smart grid technology they piloted during the past few years so it can fit into a more generalized everyday use case scenario. Other countries are already well under way with it in some forms or another. I wouldn't do a victory lap just yet. It's coming to the UK. It just won't be under the context you expect it to be (medical emergency, surgical gear, masks, vaccines, clinical language and apocalyptic narratives). It will simply be filtered through to you gradually. We are already seeing one of those big changes filter through now in digital currency. All shops now be default accept contactless, especially the big ones. This is to make way for when cash is completely phased out and when CBDC's are ready to use. That all started with cash being able to kill us all and so we need to use contactless because it's safer. Now conveniently all transactions are done without cash, saving a few that are while cash is circulating. Work from home is another example. Many big companies have said they won't introduce people back into the workplace and this is well after any threat we are told there is. The idea of hybrid work hours are now well on there way where most people won't go to work at all, or very little anyway. If there is no pandemic anymore, why is work now moving towards working from home? It's almost like it was supposed to happen and COVID-19 just helped these things along when nobody thought it necessary to challenge what was going on.

The reason the UK didn't go the route other countries went down is because historically our country has been democratic. We still have protective mechanisms in place and we still have a system that despite having spent years being shot at (much like many countries sadly) still stands relatively firm. We are among one of the most democratic countries in the world and we are well known for this for good reason.

The world is going digital. That was a huge part of COVID-19. The digital infrastructure is coming into place so that is can replace the analog technologies, systems and infrastructure we still have in places. Again, nobody voted for this. Nobody agreed to it. They were simply thrown into a monumental planet threatening pandemic and then made to accept the changes as if they were beneficial to survival.

Temporary therefore doesn't even belong anywhere near this discussion because everything that has happened is here to stay. We just aren't shackled to walls like most people imagine losing freedom is all about.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't believe you looked up the qualifications of all the people in over 30 papers that quickly.

i didn't, in my original reply to you i said 'of the ones i looked up' - it was you who linked them in the same sentence that you complained they aren't focused on safety and efficacy. those authors are about as qualified to research safety/efficacy as we are, i.e. not at all. i know its not a coherent argument but since you made it within the last hour i shouldn't have to explain it to you.

Why would increasing vaccine uptake be important when the vaccines aren't effective against the current variants, while still also not having long term safety data?

they aren't about increasing vaccine uptake. they are about factors affecting vaccine uptake.

we now have safety data going back years. how long do you need?

what is the basis of your assertion that the vaccines aren't effective against current variants? these references suggest you are wrong:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270

Clinical severity of, and effectiveness of mRNA vaccines against, covid-19 from omicron, delta, and alpha SARS-CoV-2 variants in the United States: prospective observational study

Objectives To characterize the clinical severity of covid-19 associated with the alpha, delta, and omicron SARS-CoV-2 variants among adults admitted to hospital and to compare the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines to prevent hospital admissions related to each variant. Design Case-control study...

www.bmj.com

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.27588 - 'it is hypothesized that current COVID-19 vaccines will protect in reducing disease severity to the vaccinated individuals as a majority of the epitopes targeted by vaccine-induced T cells are not mutated in the Omicron variant.'

from 11 days ago:

COVID-19 Vaccines: Current and Future Perspectives

Currently available vaccines against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) are highly effective but not able to keep the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic completely under control. Alternative R&D strategies are required to induce a long-lasting immunological...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Jabberwocky]

You are free to THINK you are free. And so long as it's just thoughts it's okay. As soon as you start to question things, just like people are doing in this topic, you're all of a sudden not that free anymore. Or at least, you are but you must suffer the fate of no longer being accepted in society. Is that freedom? If one side is right and one side is wrong and the wrong side is demonized and segregated from the so-called right, is that freedom?

i've walked out of jobs with no notice and nothing to go to because i was being pressured not to question things.

i'm a research scientist. its my job to question.

look, sometimes there is overwhelming evidence on one side, in the case of covid vaccines, that is what we have. it doesn't mean there aren't slight uncertainties here and there, but broadly, we know they are safe and effective to a very, very, high degree. more than any other novel pharmaceutical by an order of magnitude (that's a guess, it might be more, unlikely to be less).

question somehting that is actually controversial, its a better use of your time and more likely to be fruitful.

i am perfectly free to assess evidence and so are you. science doesn't have a right and wrong side. it has a side that is supported by evidence, and one or many that are not. it is your prerogative to take a side that is not supported by evidence but don't try and construe it as some freedom fight.

 

[Electrum1]

we now have safety data going back years. how long do you need?

10+ years

what is the basis of your assertion that the vaccines aren't effective against current variants?

'it is hypothesized that current COVID-19 vaccines will protect in reducing disease severity to the vaccinated individuals as a majority of the epitopes targeted by vaccine-induced T cells are not mutated in the Omicron variant.'

Hypothesized.

Highly vaxxed countries have high rates of cases compared to less vaxxed countries right now. Clearly the vax shots aren't effective at stopping current Covid variants.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Highly vaxxed countries have high rates of cases compared to less vaxxed countries right now. Clearly the vax shots aren't effective at stopping current Covid variants.

for the billionth time, the shots were designed to reduce severe symptoms, not prevent cases.

 

[Electrum1]

Also, the digital infrastructure that was bolted in place is now here to stay. The next few years you will see that infrastructure start to surface and it become a daily part of your life. You were told the 'old normal' is gone and the 'new normal' is here to stay.

Exactly

 

[Electrum1]

for the billionth time, the shots were designed to reduce severe symptoms, not prevent cases.

Uh huh. I'm surprised you bought into that rebranding of failed vax shots

 

[imo_incolae]

i've walked out of jobs with no notice and nothing to go to because i was being pressured not to question things.

i'm a research scientist. its my job to question.

look, sometimes there is overwhelming evidence on one side, in the case of covid vaccines, that is what we have. it doesn't mean there aren't slight uncertainties here and there, but broadly, we know they are safe and effective to a very, very, high degree. more than any other novel pharmaceutical by an order of magnitude (that's a guess, it might be more, unlikely to be less).

question somehting that is actually controversial, its a better use of your time and more likely to be fruitful.

i am perfectly free to assess evidence and so are you. science doesn't have a right and wrong side. it has a side that is supported by evidence, and one or many that are not. it is your prerogative to take a side that is not supported by evidence but don't try and construe it as some freedom fight.

The problem I have is that lots of people come from scientific backgrounds and they all popped up during the past few years when beforehand you never heard from any of them when there were other scientific debates. Nobody came out when swine flu was around (and turned out to be bullshit). Nobody came out when any other virus was out in the open. There wasn't such a debate nor the framework for that debate. We never have for anything else regardless of pandemics or not. Nobody springs out of the woodwork when we actually need scientists.

COVID-19 comes around and all of a sudden there's a pre-built stage for projecting 'science' out to the masses. The 'experts' as if by magic all spring up and now there's a PhD on every street and on every corner. You couldn't so much as live your life without being dictated to by some 'expert' self professed or otherwise. Nobody has anything to say any other day but this comes around and without them even being warned about it (which is strange considering scientists should be able to understand what they are studying/researching if it actually exists for them to study/research in the first place). Nobody knew this was coming but all of a sudden, COVID-19.

You have to be very careful when this happens. Science isn't a concrete thing, as you have already alluded to. When people believe things can be explained so easily and without question just because 'science' comes along with whatever is being saying, we are heading for trouble. We could be walking into tyranny with science being used as the new religion and people will simply regurgitate science stuff all the way to their self-made demise. You can cite scientific principles etc all you want but it won't make a difference when doing so doesn't undo the shackles. Science if we are not careful, will be our downfall. And not because the science is 'wrong' or 'right'. It will be our downfall because science will be something completely different. It wont be science anymore. Science wasn't science when we discovered we were not the center of the universe. Science wasn't science when we discarded the 'science' of religion, conveniently after preaching and forcing that 'science' down the necks of everybody around the world (witches, anyone?). Science is science when it's convenient to be science and when it serves a purpose. But what purpose and for whom? That is the major issue. Mainstream science is only mainstream science when it is acceptable for it to be so. Psychiatry was a fringe nutjob subject not that long ago but as soon as we needed a way to further marginalize and segregrate society and imprison the 'insane' all of a sudden it's a bonafied science. We still don't actually know about the human mind though and our entirely biological model for psychiatry is failing us. And yet, SCIENCE! Take your meds because SCIENCE. Meanwhile big pharma makes BILLIONS each year from the suffering of MILLIONS of people who are told their problems will be solved by swallowing a pill we can't even really tell people how they work but it's one of the most prescribed drugs on the planet.

As a researcher you will already know there is science and then science. But which is which? And what are the majority supporting really? Are we on the same song sheet? If you already know how murky the waters of science are (because of all the myriad conflicts of interests that exist) then seeking to compartmentalize a subject that you already know is tainted and manipulated and pushed to serve ulterior motives (try getting a PhD if your thesis is on something your grant funders need to repress) is one surefire way of sleepwalking into a future you or anybody else doesn't want willingly.

 

[Xorkoth]

To be fair, I don't consider it a "rebranding". The vaccines were actually very effective against the strain of covid they were developed against, against alpha, they greatly reduced case count as well as serious illness when you caught it anyway. Unfortunately it mutated several times and it's not very effective against omicron, though it does still seem to largely prevent hospitalizations even in omicron. It's not the scientists' fault that covid mutated. Whatcha gonna do?

 

[imo_incolae]

for the billionth time, the shots were designed to reduce severe symptoms, not prevent cases.

That is true. They were created to reduce symptoms. Which is crazy because people were taking them believing it actually cured the disease.
It was openly disclosed that these vaccines would not cure the disease but so many people had already been bought into the fear and had been goaded into assuming vaccines were the solution they took it on the assumption it would 'fix' the situation.

The vaccines did nothing. Naturally the virus ebbed and flowed it's way through the population until enough people developed strong enough immunity to suppress it.
The illusion is the vaccines did something but they didn't. And then the injuries caused by these vaccines is whole other discussion of it's own. Last time I checked here in the UK the number of reported injuries from the vaccine was several hundred thousand and that was last year. I wonder what it is now. It will be on record as a drug with the most risks attached to it purely on the reported effects of the drug on huge amounts of people. You are not told that though which is alarming and shows the evident corruption at the core of what many consider to be science.

 

[thujone]

The vaccines did nothing. Naturally the virus ebbed and flowed it's way through the population until enough people developed strong enough immunity to suppress it.
The illusion is the vaccines did something but they didn't.

agreed. it was a very clever trick, because how is anyone supposed to prove it?

 

[Jabberwocky]

"vaccines did nothing"


Lol

yep its all a big joke, it's sugar pillsl

 

[Xorkoth]

That is true. They were created to reduce symptoms. Which is crazy because people were taking them believing it actually cured the disease.

That is indeed crazy. If they we created to reduce symptoms, why did people think they were supposed to 100% cure the disease?

(hint: it was shifting goalposts)

 

[Illyria99]

Uh huh. I'm surprised you bought into that rebranding of failed vax shots

What surprises me is how so many people fall for the continuous lies and backtracking we're subjected to. For example, here in Los Angeles the media recently announced (with great fanfare, mind you) that masks were now optional in transit hubs...airports, bus stations, etc. Then three days later, it was announced that masks were suddenly required again!

What the fuck.