Wars, Invasions, & Imperialism Thread v. Ukraine & Russia

[deficiT]

@admin - I appreciate you attempting to clean this mess up tactfully, and I hate to be that guy but surely there should be punishment for instigating personal attacks *points to Eldritch*

Feel free to delete this post - I won't take it any further. But the next time he instigates personal attacks - which he will - I hope you'll be fair and reprimand him.

Noted, thanks.

More of a first verbal warning kind of thing, there were insults/ad-homs, but nothing particularly egregious and he has an otherwise clean-ish record.

I indeed will.

 

[JGrimez]

Accept for the prime minister of your country you're constantly saying can "go get fucked" and all sorts of other shit? Nope, tired of that one. Stop insulting people, full stop.

Have an actual discussion with people for the love of fuck. It's not that hard.

Popping in here every thirty minutes or so ranting and raving madness about whatever nonsense and threatening violence on whichever politician you hate this week is a tired act mate.

That's kinda funny in light of the tsunami of unhinged Trump-hating posts that I saw here.
I think we should be able to insult public figures as long as there's an explanation along with it.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

The Neo-Nazi rhetoric re: Ukraine seems very overblown to me. Svoboda, the ultranationalist political party in Ukraine, received under 2 percent of the vote in the same election that Zelensky came out the victor in. That's not exactly a robust performance for the far-right.

Some "anti-imperialist" commentators seemingly cannot talk about Ukraine at all without bringing up Azov Battalion or some other marginal bonehead group. It also ignores the fact that Putin's Russia has increasingly relied on nationalist/chauvinist and far-right elements within the state to shore up their own position after 2014, with the hilariously-named Liberal Democratic Party being put into service for the Kremlin in this way...much in the same way that Ukrainian government was permissive with nationalist and far-right militias after Maidan and subsequent developments in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

There are Neo-Nazi boneheads in Ukraine, of course, just as there are in Russia. But it's a marginal fringe political movement, and it's just a weird thing to focus on imo. I get why he's doing it, though, it's the kind of crude, lame propaganda that the former Soviet Union used to specialize in

 

[JGrimez]

The Neo-Nazi rhetoric re: Ukraine seems very overblown to me. Svoboda, the ultranationalist political party in Ukraine, received under 2 percent of the vote in the same election that Zelensky came out the victor in. That's not exactly a robust performance for the far-right.

Some "anti-imperialist" commentators seemingly cannot talk about Ukraine at all without bringing up Azov Battalion or some other marginal bonehead group. It also ignores the fact that Putin's Russia has increasingly relied on nationalist/chauvinist and far-right elements within the state to shore up their own position after 2014, with the hilariously-named Liberal Democratic Party being put into service for the Kremlin in this way...much in the same way that Ukrainian government was permissive with nationalist and far-right militias after Maidan and subsequent developments in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

There are Neo-Nazi boneheads in Ukraine, of course, just as there are in Russia. But it's a marginal fringe political movement, and it's just a weird thing to focus on imo. I get why he's doing it, though, it's the kind of crude, lame propaganda that the former Soviet Union used to specialize in

marginally fringe.... that's why they're propped up by Western powers

 

[nznity]

Don't joke. Just yesterday and repeated today I see we got some big cheese (bishop) in the Ukrainian Orthodox church saying he's the anti-christ. A good way to improve relations wouldn't you say! Russian Orthodox not too happy about it apparently. Anyway: I guess that President Xi jinping off of the hook then.

Ukrainian bishop: Putin is the 'anti-Christ of our current time'

A Ukrainian archbishop and spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin as the “anti-Christ of our current time" as Russia invades Ukraine.

www.foxnews.com

Well if anything I'm glad it's him. Told ya: he'll outlive us all (if true doesn't that ensure he's President until ...). Also means there's time to get my shit together and shake the man's hand.

Wth, and because they think he's the antichrist we should be scared of him? Is he like voldemort or something? Man, cmon... all of em are evil at the top.

 

[deficiT]

That's kinda funny in light of the tsunami of unhinged Trump-hating posts that I saw here.
I think we should be able to insult public figures as long as there's an explanation along with it.

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't modding CEPS during that time, and we're trying to tighten up on shit like that. I'm going to try and be as fair as possible. No one catches everything or moderates perfectly, but I'm trying my best to leave whatever biases I have at the door and just try and make it a better place to talk about shit.

Calling a politician/public figure a douche or having a laugh is one thing, but the threats of violence and all sorts of other crazy shit that goes along with it is too far, and I've seen a lot of that personally.

This example is just me getting tired of one person who's constantly doing that kind of shit. I don't care who she is or who she represents honestly, that's really not the point. Obviously this is a lighter example, but I've seen far worse and I'm just trying to signal that it's time to get better with that shit.

 

[JGrimez]

George Orwell on Spanish Civil War propaganda :

Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various “party lines.”

 

[deficiT]

marginally fringe.... that's why they're propped up by Western powers

Yeah, it's really an unfortunate situation all around imo. The US has certainly not been some passive observer in all this, they have directly and implicitly placed alot of the chess pieces in play for this starting with the coup I guess.

I mean, no real good guys imo. I still think Russia is just using whatever excuses they can to justify territory and resource expansion etc.

 

[JGrimez]

Yeah, it's really an unfortunate situation all around imo. The US has certainly not been some passive observer in all this, they have directly and implicitly placed alot of the chess pieces in play for this starting with the coup I guess.

I mean, no real good guys imo. I still think Russia is just using whatever excuses they can to justify territory and resource expansion etc.

I don't see any basis behind this claim. They haven't been invading other countries like the US has. I just don't see how "Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union".
They simply want to keep NATO/Western imperialist powers off their doorstep, which is completely understandable.

 

[deficiT]

I don't see any basis behind this claim. They haven't been invading other countries like the US has. I just don't see how "Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union".
They simply want to keep NATO/Western imperialist powers off their doorstep, which is completely understandable.

Sure, I'm certainly not going to defend the US, as their atrocities greatly outnumber most if not all of the countries on the planet.

But they are invading a country now. Whether it's a play for NATO to fuck off, or whatever, doesn't matter, innocents are being killed.

I don't see it as him recreating the Soviet union really either, but I also don't see him as just gallantly defending Mother Russia. There's always a real motive with powerful leaders like this, and when it comes to invading another country it's usually less than innocent. They play optics well and they can spin bias and propaganda any which way, that's why they are politicians and presidents.

 

[December Flower]

ok and what is the difference between then and right now?

the Russians are trying to have their way with a country that's been it's own for 30 years

if they're all nazis then they're all nazis - whatever - are they bombing Russia? what are they doing to Russia?

they're drug addicts? what kinda drugs are they doing? are they tweekers too?

What changed is the USA funding Svoboda and the ultranationalists.

They're not bombing Russia, they were bombing the 2 now sovereign states that seperated from Ukraine.
All 3 states that seperated from Ukraine did so on their own accord, please don't forget that.
They voted to get out of Ukraine, for which Ukraine started a war against them. And Ukraine voted against anti-Nazism and a resolution https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-ukraine-vote-against-anti-nazism-unga-resolution

Not sure how voting works in Ukraine, but it at least means either the Presiden, or 51% of the population are far-right.

There's so many obvious facts lying around on the internet, and i'm sick of hearing "Russia is the bad guy"
srsly they're just not. it was a trap by the US. Russia is done without Ukraine.

 

[deficiT]

They play optics well and they can spin bias and propaganda any which way, that's why they are politicians and presidents.

I mean, unless you're Joe Biden and then you just go "ahhhhhhhh" on the microphone like the dentist told you to open wide

 

[December Flower]

The Neo-Nazi rhetoric re: Ukraine seems very overblown to me. Svoboda, the ultranationalist political party in Ukraine, received under 2 percent of the vote in the same election that Zelensky came out the victor in. That's not exactly a robust performance for the far-right.

Some "anti-imperialist" commentators seemingly cannot talk about Ukraine at all without bringing up Azov Battalion or some other marginal bonehead group. It also ignores the fact that Putin's Russia has increasingly relied on nationalist/chauvinist and far-right elements within the state to shore up their own position after 2014, with the hilariously-named Liberal Democratic Party being put into service for the Kremlin in this way...much in the same way that Ukrainian government was permissive with nationalist and far-right militias after Maidan and subsequent developments in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

There are Neo-Nazi boneheads in Ukraine, of course, just as there are in Russia. But it's a marginal fringe political movement, and it's just a weird thing to focus on imo. I get why he's doing it, though, it's the kind of crude, lame propaganda that the former Soviet Union used to specialize in

Then why did Ukraine vote against anti-Nazism, neo-Nazism and xenophobia?

This was just in December 2021.

I want that explained without anyone saying "Ukraine is not in the hands of Neo-Nazis"
Please fucking inform yourself.

also mmmccain with the neo-nazi leader of Svoboda, lovely

Na the US did not cause this conflict, I totally agree.
Again, the US funded these guys. You can't now say "they're just a minority"

Even if they're just a minority, they have weapons en-masse.
Any group with enough weapons can cause chaos and death (see RAF)

 

[JGrimez]

What changed is the USA funding Svoboda and the ultranationalists.

They're not bombing Russia, they were bombing the 2 now sovereign states that seperated from Ukraine.
All 3 states that seperated from Ukraine did so on their own accord, please don't forget that.
They voted to get out of Ukraine, for which Ukraine started a war against them. And Ukraine voted against anti-Nazism and a resolution https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-ukraine-vote-against-anti-nazism-unga-resolution

Not sure how voting works in Ukraine, but it at least means either the Presiden, or 51% of the population are far-right.

There's so many obvious facts lying around on the internet, and i'm sick of hearing "Russia is the bad guy"
srsly they're just not. it was a trap by the US. Russia is done without Ukraine.

Yeah I'm getting tired of this "nobody is the good guy, everyone is the bad guy" weaksauce, fence-sit analysis.

If the will of the people in Eastern Ukraine was respected, then Russia would not be "invading".
Just like when the western media went apoplectic in 2014 when Russia allegedly "invaded" Crimea. Their troops were already stationed there, under agreement.

doesn't matter, innocents are being killed.

It does matter. Russia is focused on minimizing civilian casualties as they're not in the (American) business of indiscriminate bombing.
It's noteworthy and they should be commended somewhat for it

 

[December Flower]

Yeah I'm getting tired of this "nobody is the good guy, everyone is the bad guy" weaksauce, fence-sit analysis.

If the will of the people in Eastern Ukraine was respected, then Russia would not be "invading".
Just like when the western media went apoplectic in 2014 when Russia allegedly "invaded" Crimea. Their troops were already stationed there, under agreement.


It does matter. Russia is focused on minimizing civilian casualties as they're not in the (American) business of indiscriminate bombing.
It's noteworthy and they should be commended somewhat for it

At least someone does his research.

 

[December Flower]

doesn't matter, innocents are being killed.

funnily enough that never matters when the US makes a move.
Oh, you're just funding terrorists in Syria, that's nice. And yes, you still fund and train them.
That's fine. You attack country after country. No issue there, why should there be?
You fund terrorist organisations all over the world (just like Svoboda and Far Right, Azov, etc in Ukraine) to destabilize countries.

Russia makes a move: "INNOCENTS ARE DYING"

I hate how two-faced everyone is about this. What makes Putin's war any worse than any US war?
He even tries as best as possible to save Civilians. It was Ukraineans President who forbade males between 18-60 to leave the country.
Ofc their families stay there too, if the males leave they can never go back.
Who is killing the innocents?

 

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

funnily enough that never matters when the US makes a move.
Oh, you're just funding terrorists in Syria, that's nice. And yes, you still fund and train them.
That's fine. You attack country after country. No issue there, why should there be?
You fund terrorist organisations all over the world (just like Svoboda and Far Right, Azov, etc in Ukraine) to destabilize countries.

Russia makes a move: "INNOCENTS ARE DYING"

I hate how two-faced everyone is about this. What makes Putin's war any worse than any US war?
He even tries as best as possible to save Civilians. It was Ukraineans President who forbade males between 18-60 to leave the country.
Ofc their families stay there too, if the males leave they can never go back.
Who is killing the innocents?

That's exactly what Russia has been doing in Ukraine for the last 8 years in Ukraine funding separatists to overthrow the government and place a puppet leader in that leans towards Russia. It didn't work and Russia made the excuse of NATO expanding so he could topple Ukraine and place his puppet leader. Russia purposefully attacks civilians it's actually a tactic to put pressure on governments. The United States did the same stuff in Syria and Iraq funding ISIS and displacing millions and killing many just because they wanted another place they could expand their military and make more money. We're not going to get into this because I will get banned but the united states actors cause intentional death to be able to pass laws and start wars.

Russia should have never invaded Ukraine because it exposed how underfunded and weak their military actually is. Just shows how big geography plays a large part. That's why Russia wants Ukraine so bad, It also shows that NATO and the UN actually work at denying countries from becoming nazi Germany again.

 

[dalpat077]

fucking hell. and here's me wanting to start the day with an olive branch. meanwhile everybody at each other's throats i see.

was listening to some Ukrainian refugees being interviewed last night. and i had this nagging feeling that i sure do hope that somebody in the West steps up and takes a bit of responsibility and offers to help them rebuild their lives. they didn't deserve this nor ask for it. if anything ; zelensky and his mob asked for it as did all of those that would not listen or acommdoate Russia's requests. President Putin never minced his words in the preamble to all of this i.e. the way this could all have been avoided totally was simply to comply with his requests which were not unreasonable nor off the wall. But i see now it's Putin is this and Putin is that... i'm guessing nobody gonna step up to the plate because that would take REALmen of substance and proper honorable statesmen. i mean; the USA trying to get auth. to spend billions on more weapons for Ukraine. hope some of that will be made avialable to the Ukranians in order to rebuild. same with the fund that the EU wanting to use to enable other EU countries to supply more arms.

so contrary to popular belief I got no issues with Ukraine or Ukranians and for sure don't want to see them suffer or wiped off of the face of the planet. some of the stories are very very sad and under conditions that few, if any of us (well me certainly0, could even imagine or truly empathize with.

But, and i've not fact checked this, some american satellite firm reports that there is a convoy of Russian military forces and weaponry on its way to Ukraine that is approx. 60km long.

now if ya'll would just play nice with each other.

 

[dalpat077]

Russia should have never invaded Ukraine because it exposed how underfunded and weak their military actually is.

yeah well. let's hope you're right. imagine this just a test or exercise that exposes the weaknesses and shortcomings.not being a military expert myself but i would imagine there's a big differnce between military exercises and war games and the real thing.

shame and on that note; they interviewed a young Ukranian dude last night and who went and took up arms and shot a Russian soldier wounding him . and man did this poor dude regret it. and he gonna have to live with that for the rest of his life. He was saying that when you hear for real screams of pain from somebody that's been shot several times it's a whole different story and different perspective. and which makes a good case for leaving it to the enlisted men and professional military i'd say.

 

[JGrimez]

funnily enough that never matters when the US makes a move.
Oh, you're just funding terrorists in Syria, that's nice. And yes, you still fund and train them.
That's fine. You attack country after country. No issue there, why should there be?
You fund terrorist organisations all over the world (just like Svoboda and Far Right, Azov, etc in Ukraine) to destabilize countries.

Russia makes a move: "INNOCENTS ARE DYING"

I hate how two-faced everyone is about this. What makes Putin's war any worse than any US war?
He even tries as best as possible to save Civilians. It was Ukraineans President who forbade males between 18-60 to leave the country.
Ofc their families stay there too, if the males leave they can never go back.
Who is killing the innocents?

You make a lot of sense but the TV told me that Ukraine was the good guy and we should cheer for them while Russia's Putin is Dictator Hitler II.

That's exactly what Russia has been doing in Ukraine for the last 8 years in Ukraine funding separatists to overthrow the government

A "government" installed by a Western-backed coup is not a legitimate government. Those ethnic-Russian separatists had every right to revolt against what happened.