Junkie who doesn't want to get smol

[Phobos]

Thanks again for all the tips man.

So far the the AI I've got in the Arimidex hasn't been provoking any negative sides, at least at the very low dose that I've taken it at once so far, so that's good. I'll go ahead and get some Masteron though too to stack. I'm not very susceptible to MPB that I know of but I can't tell until I expose myself to these compounds for sure. I just know that my family has crazy good genetics for hair, my grandfather literally kept all of his hair even during chemo for stage 4 lung cancer, and died with a full head of hair (minus a modest widows peak but none the less), and that seems to be synonymous on both sides of my family.

I'm still retaining some water, and have put on about 10 lbs in short order due to the retention. Due to my own research over the past few days however I've learned it seems to be about average when you get on cycle, to put on a bit of water weight, and that it dissipates as you get later into your cycle. So perhaps less to do with Estrogen, more to do with regular bodily function.

Still considering the orals for when I stop drinking in a few days here. Would you say I'd be good to go on those in that case as well?

For the orals I would wait to see that your bloodwork shows that your liver is fine.
I would recommend you do not use them until you have found your sweet spot for Test, Masteron if you end up using it and AI, if you'll be using it at all.
The reasoning for this is that you want to add one factor at a time to your regimen, so you can understand what is doing what.

Also, orals don't need weeks to reach stable blood concentrations, they just work from the start as they are immediate release, as opposed to Test Cypionate, which will need about 5 weeks at the same dose to reach a stable blood level, meaning that your test levels will slowly rise for 4 more weeks even if you keep using the same dose.
So I would recommend that you wait until your Test levels reach a stable level and then you will be able to add something new and see how you react.

 

[Dandreas345]

For the orals I would wait to see that your bloodwork shows that your liver is fine.
I would recommend you do not use them until you have found your sweet spot for Test, Masteron if you end up using it and AI, if you'll be using it at all.
The reasoning for this is that you want to add one factor at a time to your regimen, so you can understand what is doing what.

Also, orals don't need weeks to reach stable blood concentrations, they just work from the start as they are immediate release, as opposed to Test Cypionate, which will need about 5 weeks at the same dose to reach a stable blood level, meaning that your test levels will slowly rise for 4 more weeks even if you keep using the same dose.
So I would recommend that you wait until your Test levels reach a stable level and then you will be able to add something new and see how you react.

Understood.

Masteron is looking more and more like a great addition. I've experienced a few sides, but looking at now upping my AI to .25mg ED, to nix those. Mainly just some right nipple sensitivity, which when I was a fat ass I also experienced at one point, so I'm not very surprised. I had been just taking AI as symptoms flared, which I had mentioned in a previous post, but I think although not always recommended, in my circumstances may be best.

I think from now on a preemptive dose is in order, as my estrogen and/or prolactin is likely high since start of cycle due to the added aromatization and other formerly benign, but now likely not so benign side effects of alcohol consumption. I've lowered my drinking to a very moderate amount in comparison to before.

I'm down to 10 ounces of vodka p/d, going to 6 ounces tomorrow, and will be completely off shortly after with help of a .5mg benzo during the day.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond and help me out here, I know a lot of people would simply flame me for my decision making, so I do really appreciate it.

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

You need to cut the alcohol out man, it's causing you the prolactin problems(hyperprolactinemia) for sure. High prolactin also causes body & face bloat(take it from me).

High prolactin will also make your muscles and skeletal system weak. It'll also fuck with you mentally...

TLDR; For the sake of your gains you need to quit the drink ASAP. The A.I is not bulletproof at stopping gyno because of elevated prolactin.

 

[Dandreas345]

You need to cut the alcohol out man, it's causing you the prolactin problems(hyperprolactinemia) for sure. High prolactin also causes body & face bloat(take it from me).

High prolactin will also make your muscles and skeletal system weak. It'll also fuck with you mentally...

TLDR; For the sake of your gains you need to quit the drink ASAP. The A.I is not bulletproof at stopping gyno because of elevated prolactin.

Roger that man.

I've thought about some caber too, for prolactin, because unfortunately the booze reduction is not an easy answer solution type issue. It is going to be forgone sooner rather than later, however.

 

[negrogesic]

There are plenty of people with your use level that stay relatively big.

Question is i suppose, what do you mean my small? Small to a guy who has been huge his whole life is different to the average person's view of what small means.

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

Roger that man.

I've thought about some caber too, for prolactin, because unfortunately the booze reduction is not an easy answer solution type issue. It is going to be forgone sooner rather than later, however.

Get the caber. You need it IMO at this point. It does miracles at reducing prolactin and reversing any early-stage gyno lumps.

Prolactin is a stubborn bitch of a hormone. When raised artificially through drug usage, it usually stays floating around in ones' body indefinitely.

Edit: You need to get blood tests.

 

[Dandreas345]

There are plenty of people with your use level that stay relatively big.

Question is i suppose, what do you mean my small? Small to a guy who has been huge his whole life is different to the average person's view of what small means.

Well, I had built a pretty decent physique for myself in a year and a half clean that I had.

Before this bout of sobriety, I had a really gnarly two year run of addiction in which I lost everything, and became very fat (I had already had some decent fat gain prior to relapsing that time), and it became increasingly difficult to rationalize to myself why I wanted to get clean, or improve/better myself at all when I self loathed fundamentally already. Then also self loathed as a result of my behavior, and then when I looked in the mirror of whatever stank ass hooker motel I was in, then self loathed again.

The hole I dig for myself became that much deeper as a result. It's a big reason why I stayed in addiction for the 2 year duration of my previous relapse. Much easier to get the "fuck it's" when you hate yourself to a extreme.

To elaborate on your question further however, before I got into my DOC's that brought me to my knees, despite the alcohol use I wasn't "huge" per se, but always maintained a definitive physique and took pride in my physical appearance, so while I wasn't used to being huge, I definitely was used to not looking like shit.

 

[Dandreas345]

Get the caber. You need it IMO at this point. It does miracles at reducing prolactin and reversing any early-stage gyno lumps.

Prolactin is a stubborn bitch of a hormone. When raised artificially through drug usage, it usually stays floating around in ones' body indefinitely.

Edit: You need to get blood tests.

Yep, bloods are coming. I wasn't planning on pulling bloods until later on, but considering recent developments and your recommendation I will be pulling them either tomorrow or the day after.

I'll go ahead and pull the trigger on the Caber, just trying to find a decent AI source that doesn't ship outwards of 2 weeks from international locales is proving difficult and my OG source isn't supplying that currently to my dismay.

 

[negrogesic]

Yep, bloods are coming. I wasn't planning on pulling bloods until later on, but considering recent developments and your recommendation I will be pulling them either tomorrow or the day after.

I'll go ahead and pull the trigger on the Caber, just trying to find a decent AI source that doesn't ship outwards of 2 weeks from international locales is proving difficult and my OG source isn't supplying that currently to my dismay.

What's your serum testosterone?

I drink a fair amount of alcohol (though somewhat less than you), take moderate amount of stimulants, and still have quite high testosterone, grow muscle easily.

What is your exercise routine like? You start there and work your way backwards.

 

[Dandreas345]

What's your serum testosterone?

I drink a fair amount of alcohol (though somewhat less than you), take moderate amount of stimulants, and still have quite high testosterone, grow muscle easily.

What is your exercise routine like? You start there and work your way backwards.

Unknown currently, as I've yet to pull bloods. But that's in the works.

How much would you say you consume? I'm at 10 ounces of vodka a day, I measure it out with a measuring cup type thing. I naturally grow muscle pretty easily as well, never had any issues as a natty in the past 8 years or so minus the substance use. I have however always tested on the lower end of normal each time I've tested as a natty.

Currently I'm following the same split that I used successfully for 6 months during my clean time as a natty. Prior to that for 9 months I used PPL alternating heavy and light days with a deload week to good results. However currently full body split 4 days a week, so incorporating every compound lift plus 2-3 accessory lifts, plus 30 minutes of moderate to intense cardio and calisthenics in the form of burpees/pull ups on the day following.

I've tried a lot of different programming over the course of my time lifting, including PPL, and 5x5, plus of course the obligatory time doing the bro splits. I may try a more bro split as time goes on in the cycle, to get more volume out of each muscle group but I'll keep it to the 2-3 week mesocycle for the full body split and see what results I glean. Adjust accordingly.

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

What's your serum testosterone?

I drink a fair amount of alcohol (though somewhat less than you), take moderate amount of stimulants, and still have quite high testosterone, grow muscle easily.

What is your exercise routine like? You start there and work your way backwards.

"Conclusions: These results suggest that ethanol causes hyperprolactinemia by elevating prolactin release from lactotropes and by increasing the number of lactotropes in the anterior pituitary gland. The mitotic action of ethanol requires cell-cell communication between lactotropes and other pituitary cells. Furthermore, ethanol's mode of action on prolactin release and lactotrope growth is similar to that observed for estradiol."


Personally what I've noticed is that some guys are really sensitive to exogenous substances(like myself), whilst others never get negatively hit with that high prolactin penalty...

There are pros & cons to being sensitive or not.

 

[Dandreas345]

"Conclusions: These results suggest that ethanol causes hyperprolactinemia by elevating prolactin release from lactotropes and by increasing the number of lactotropes in the anterior pituitary gland. The mitotic action of ethanol requires cell-cell communication between lactotropes and other pituitary cells. Furthermore, ethanol's mode of action on prolactin release and lactotrope growth is similar to that observed for estradiol."


Personally what I've noticed is that some guys are really sensitive to exogenous substances(like myself), whilst others never get negatively hit with that high prolactin penalty...

There are pros & cons to being sensitive or not.

I've always found myself to be metabolically sensitive, and seem to react somewhat more to substances/drugs whether medications or narcotics than others. So it makes sense to me, and I'm sure I'll like the pros, as much as I dislike the cons.

EDIT: Just to let you know, since taking the 0.25mg Adex, I have noticed a lessened to no sensitivity in the nipple I had mentioned. So hopefully a preemptive AI dosage daily will do the trick.

EDIT: I also saw that Vitamin B6 is an excellent natural Prolactin inhibitor, don't know if you've had any experience or heard of that?

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

I've always found myself to be metabolically sensitive, and seem to react somewhat more to substances/drugs whether medications or narcotics than others. So it makes sense to me, and I'm sure I'll like the pros, as much as I dislike the cons.

EDIT: Just to let you know, since taking the 0.25mg Adex, I have noticed a lessened to no sensitivity in the nipple I had mentioned. So hopefully a preemptive AI dosage daily will do the trick.

EDIT: I also saw that Vitamin B6 is an excellent natural Prolactin inhibitor, don't know if you've had any experience or heard of that?

If you're sensitive to medications/drugs then it's highly possible your prolactin is elevated. It might have even have started way back when you put on all that weight. High prolactin is notorious for making you fat.

It's good that you're getting bloods in the next day or two. You'll know exactly what's going on, and that's a vital thing right now. Try and get a full blood test panel, instead of prolactin only if you can afford it.

I personally didn't know that about vitamin b6. But you most likely need cabaser right now if your prolactin is elevated. It's a no fuss, no bullshit solution to prolactin.

Lastly, can you post me your diet and all the meals? I'd like to take a peak...

 

[Dandreas345]

If you're sensitive to medications/drugs then it's highly possible your prolactin is elevated. It might have even have started way back when you put on all that weight. High prolactin is notorious for making you fat.

It's good that you're getting bloods in the next day or two. You'll know exactly what's going on, and that's a vital thing right now. Try and get a full blood test panel, instead of prolactin only if you can afford it.

I personally didn't know that about vitamin b6. But you most likely need cabaser right now if your prolactin is elevated. It's a no fuss, no bullshit solution to prolactin.

Lastly, can you post me your diet and all the meals? I'd like to take a peak...

Roger that, I'll definitely get a better idea when I pull bloods, but I'm hopeful since the Arimidex seems to be making a difference in the nip sensitivity. I can afford a relatively comprehensive panel but I'll likely be sticking to basics with Prolactin and the essentials like the test panel etc. .

Yeah it's just a matter of sourcing it reputably, but I'm working on that.

Right now I'm eating tuna fish like it's going out of style with a small helping of mayo/relish to go with. I try not to exceed my surplus too much with the booze intake, so it helps me hit my macros without excess.

Right now my 4-5 daily meals look something like this, along with 4 protein shakes a day.

6 oz Canned Tuna fish
1 tbsp light mayo
1 tbsp relish
3 cups broccoli cutlets

8 oz chicken breast
3 cups broccoli cutlets
1 tbsp italian vinagarette

6 oz 95% lean ground turkey
3 cups broccoli cutlets
6 cups baby spinach
2 cups onions
1 cup tomato sauce

5 eggs
1 cup shredded cheese
6 cups baby spinach

Variations of this with the odd take out meal included. Usually a decently clean dish though.

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

1 cheat meal per week is fine, & recommended.

I noticed you're taking a low/almost no carb approach. This is not a good idea if you're trying to build muscle man. You need them carbs for those gains, trust me. You're probably worried about fat gain/fat loss, I get it. But you're gonna be feeling weak/low energy without carbs & have lackluster gains.

What do you think @Dandreas345? What's your height, weight & current BF% BTW?

 

[Dandreas345]

1 cheat meal per week is fine, & recommended.

I noticed you're taking a low/almost no carb approach. This is not a good idea if you're trying to build muscle man. You need them carbs for those gains, trust me. You're probably worried about fat gain/fat loss, I get it. But you're gonna be feeling weak/low energy without carbs & have lackluster gains.

What do you think @Dandreas345? What's your height, weight & current BF% BTW?

Yep, I keep to the slow is smooth, smooth is fast rule with cheat meals and allow myself a pace in my diet haha.

So, I did forget to include that I do throw in a tortilla/2 slices of bread and/or a serving of beans/chickpeas throughout these meals. It was late and I was a bit foggy. I'm getting a bit preoccupied with the pressing issue of the potential gyno, and sourcing the caber etc. . But I didn't come into this expecting nothing to come of it. Nothing in this life for free.

Despite my moderately low carb intake my work outs have been fucking awesome, great pumps, feeling very aggressive gym wise and loving it.

My current height/weight is 6'2", 185 lbs, current BF% is 15% even.

EDIT: BF is up from 13-14ish% since initial injection. I have a biometric scale that's largely inaccurate, but with the help of two such scales and a caliper I feel I have a fairly accurate reading averaged.

 

[Dandreas345]

Little update, been having trouble with sleep due to my proclivities, but still managing a solid 6 per 24.

Potential gyno is not progressing since upping dosage and frequency of AI, caber on the way, plus vitamin B6.

I recently read some stuff about bodybuilders in the 90's using winny as a Prolactin inhibitor as well, before AI use was widespread. Any credence to this? The research I've seen is inconclusive and somewhat over my head.

 

[0.o_LaCuNa_o.0]

So you do got some carbs in your plan - that's good and needed. IMO, eat enough carbs to give you high energy for your workouts and throughout the day

About the winny. IIRC it does have an effect on progesterone & hence prolactin. The extent of that effect I'm not sure of, but I wouldn't depend on winstrol to control & lessen my gyno symptoms.

The A.I you're using should keep the gyno from increasing in size, once you get the caber it can and most likely will shrink the lump you have a little bit.

@Dandreas345 : Diet is one of the most important factors when it comes to gains, and your diet so far is pretty good from what I see. Keep it up man Make sure you get the caber as soon as you can & post the bloods as soon as you get em'

 

[Phobos]

I recently read some stuff about bodybuilders in the 90's using winny as a Prolactin inhibitor as well, before AI use was widespread. Any credence to this? The research I've seen is inconclusive and somewhat over my head.

Winstrol is a DHT derivative so it may prevent gyno development due to reducing the effects of Estrogen, but I never heard any mention of anti prolactin activity.

In my opinion it is a worse alternative to Masteron for Estrogen management due to the liver toxicity, and does not offer advantages.

 

[Serotonin101]

Phobos pretty much has said everything I'd have wanted to.
For the sake of harm reduction: cut out the other drug use if you intend to use orals. There's also not much need to use orals either. The medium acting test that is enanthat/cypionate will gradually climb and elevate serum levels over the course of its administration and elimination. You also have no idea how certain compounds will react with your body. I'd recommend reading the First cycle sticky. It will answer basically all of your questions. It is probably the most under utilized post on this board and would eliminate most of the redundant questions we answer here on a regular basis.