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Opioids does anyone else think opiates have other health benefits besides just pain relief

Ganjcat said:
I would prefer finding the underlying issue causing pain in the 1st place
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I hear this a lot.

Though it doesn't make sense to me. I've already dealt with and faced all my traumas from the past and still struggle with these issues.
I'm not sure why people think "just facing" issues makes them disappear over night.

The damage done to a person (especially when they're really young) will leave lasting reprecussions, that may never go away. Maybe for some, but not all.

There's also the genetic component. These issues run in my family.
And there's even a theory that most depressed people have some sort of imbalance in their endogenous opioid system.
Would be nice to see more studies done on this theory, cause it seems plausible, considering most drugs cause dopamine release, yet alcohol makes me MORE depressed, where as opioids make me feel NORMAL.

So simply finding and facing trauma's isn't always the answer.
I've been to countless therapists and psyches and am now going on my mid-30's and still deal with depression & anxiety. So sharing and facing all my trauma's with them didn't seem to do a damn thing. lol And I don't actually think about these issues consciously anymore. That's why they're "disorders", because they can happen any time, for any reason.

I mostly take what I need to get through the day. Getting totally fucked up is not exactly what I'm after anymore (like alcohol, combining tons of drugs, etc..)
I'm after normality, motivation, less depressed & anxious mind states, less physical pain, etc... I don't mind if I do happen to get a nice euphoria going from it in my journey of feeling that way either.

Not to mention, just like the Ultimate Fixx Point out, humans have a desire to repeat novel and rewarding experiences.

Not only have humans usesd mind altering substances since the beginning of time, but so do animals.
It would be like telling dolphins they need to face their traumas instead of eating those puffer fish.

Ultimately people want to feel better and feel less bored & opioids are some of the most benign drugs when it comes to organ/brain damage.
Sure, they're highly addictive, but so is sugar, but I don't see anyone trying to get me to face my traumas when I reach for that next soda.

Basically, finding the issue for the pain can be a great thing to do, if you're one of those people who can do that & suddenly move on, free of any problems.
But for a lot of people, it's more than just that and finding the root cause isn't always the solution, nor is it always easy. So in the mean time, I still think people should be able to medicate how they should. I mean you are on a drug forum, would you rather people be locked up in prison and have their freedom taken away for self medicating instead? Cause that's the reality & it needs to end.
 
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NapalonyMurzyn said:
That's why they are so addictive
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... Well, running to the needle or the bottle etc with whatever problems a person has IS seductive, because in a limited sense, it bloody works. That's to say if you just get high or drunk enough you just don't give a shit anymore.
Obviously a few months down the line you then predictably find yourself with a boatload of extra problems ON TOP OF the ones you were using to attempt to cope with in the first place.

HOWEVER the fact that someone may misuse any given substance to their detriment does not also preclude a beneficial and medically indicated use of that same substance.
 
The UltimateFixx said:
... Well, running to the needle or the bottle etc with whatever problems a person has IS seductive, because in a limited sense, it bloody works. That's to say if you just get high or drunk enough you just don't give a shit anymore.
Obviously a few months down the line you then predictably find yourself with a boatload of extra problems ON TOP OF the ones you were using to attempt to cope with in the first place.

HOWEVER the fact that someone may misuse any given substance to their detriment does not also preclude a beneficial and medically indicated use of that same substance.
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I will simply put it like this, if it eliminates all the pain then you are missusing for sure
 
NapalonyMurzyn said:
I will simply put it like this, if it eliminates all the pain then you are missusing for sure
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I know exactly what you mean. A certain amount of pain and suffering is integral to the human condition, and in order to be a healthily functioning individual, one needs to be able to cope with at least some of it.
Yet I was thinking more of the historical use of morphine to manage clinical depression.

.. Which had a proven record of effectiveness, and should not have been abandoned as a practice back in the day purely because of newly-stoked, politically motivated anti - opiate sentiment.
 
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The UltimateFixx said:
I know exactly what you mean. A certain amount of pain and suffering is integral to the human condition, and in order to be a healthily functioning individual, one needs to be able to cope with at least some of it.
Yet I was thinking more of the historical use of morphine to manage clinical depression.

.. Which had a proven record of effectiveness, and should not have been abandoned as a practice back in the day purely because of newly-stoked, politically motivated anti - opiate sentiment.
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I agree here!

I like the way you think UltimateFixx.

Most people confuse the daily pain & suffering that's integral with conditions that are not integral.

It is not a normal condition to not wanna get out of bed, or not have any energy or bounce back between apathetic & melancholic states. Heightened emotional states. Social withdrawal. No motivation. Self harming. Suicidal thoughts. This is when normal "pain & suffering" becomes a chronic illness... Which can be treated by the very drugs most heavily demonized currently.

With the way TPTB have shown us how much they care about our "health" & "personal freedoms", I have come to the conclusion that the demonization of opioids was done intentionally. They cannot and DO NOT WANT people to be able to feel better from something as cheap and simple as opiates/opioids. And some people, even addicts who've dealt with opioids, are still swept up in it. People want to have something to blame and it's always the drug and not how we as a society handle drug use & the people who use them.


I'd also like to point out, that while on opioids (intoxicated or even just at baseline stability level), I still have my emotions. I can still feel happiness, anger, irritability, sadness, but the negative emotions are dampened and the positive ones are highlighted. This is a great feeling & a useful tool for those with major depressive & borderline personality disorder (and other emotional disorders where a person's emotions are TOO strong). And I certainly prefer that opioid feeling over the zombified, apathetic states that most SSRI's & the like produce. You may not feel depressed on an antidepressant anymore, but you might not ever feel happy again either! Just in limbo for an eternity!

Opioids were also effective in helping me get jobs done, especially those which required physical labor. Sure I'd have to go nod a little on break but I've never felt such clean energy & stamina from anything else. Even amphetamines don't give me energy or stamina. They keep me tweaked and awake, but I sure as hell don't feel like cleaning or doing anything responsible on them. lol But with opioids, I actually got up and took care of myself and my responsibilities. Something that was quite hard to do, even when sober, due to anxiety & the aforementioned disorders. Quite ironic!
 
Those drugs that you talk about used in this way will cut your ties to the society piece by piece. There is nothing to talk about, i've started taking opioids for depression, and now im an addict years later.

You either are an addict too, or you have no idea what you are talking about.

You bring up some old science documents, but those are from the same people that sold heroin as non addictive morphine substitute.
 
Opioids are drugs that have nothing other to offer than keeping heavily injured or last stage cancer pacients free from pain and comfortable in their last days.
 
NapalonyMurzyn said:
You either are an addict too, or you have no idea what you are talking about.
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NapalonyMurzyn said:
You bring up some old science documents, but those from the same people that sold heroin as non addictive heroin substitute.
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I've BEEN an addict ; plus I'm a researcher with a neuroscience / behavioural studies background so I have EVERY idea what I'm talking about.
Yes I'm well aware that heroin was initially marketed as a 'non-addictive' substitute to 'treat' morphine dependency. The predictable result being that the vast majority of former morphine addicts latched onto heroin, since they found it delivered a better hit with less of a histamine reaction.

HOWEVER psychiatric patients who were prescribed morphine to alleviate depressive and panic states had about the same rate of 'addiction' as do today's chronic pain patients, which is on average a paltry 2%.

That is to say the ABSOLUTE majority of all people who have taken opiates looking for NOTHING MORE than straightforward pain relief or easement of psychiatric symptoms, experience nothing but said relief, and do not form an obsessive attachment to the drug.

Addiction is a real phenomenon but it isn't caused by the simple chemistry of the drug. If that were so, and substances somehow 'contained' an addictive quality like an orange contains vitamin C, then absolutely everyone who ever took them would invariably become addicted. This is plainly not the case.

If addiction was down to the pharmacology of certain chemicals, you also would be at a loss to explain people who literally eat themselves to death, since food is not psychoactive ; nor could you logically explain the existence of 'process addictions' (like gambling or compulsive sex) where nothing whatsoever is even ingested.

Also the idea that certain drugs in particular are somehow both INHERENTLY and SPECIALLY addicting sets up the whole fallacious notion that there's some kind of range of 'addictiveness' on which each given substance occupies a set ranking.
Purely observational and experiential data defies this notion. You have people who use opiates, crack or meth on an occasional basis on the one hand, and on the other you have others who literally wake & bake and stay stoned round the clock, yet marijuana is supposed to be 'not really addictive'.

YET another point which I've made already elsewhere on here, but in this context bears repeating, is that heroin and morphine are essentially the same drug, as are crack and powder cocaine. So tell me why a massive percentage of both heroin and crack users qualify for the label of addict, while very much fewer powder cocaine users and virtually no morphine users do.

Plus actual heroin was widely prescribed for a range of medical ailments for a period of time in Britain, starting in 1926. The incidence of iatrogenic (created by treatment) addiction until the practice was outlawed, was practically NIL.

ADDICTION ISN'T ABOUT THE PHARMACOLOGY OF THE DRUG, IT'S ABOUT THE DRIVE OF THE USER. I SHOULD KNOW I WAS A FUCKING JUNKIE.
 
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Its like saying thay 1p-lsd and lsd is the same drug, its like saying that codeine is the same drug as morphine, you have just told my that you have problem with opioids, if what you,ve said justifies use for you then be it, but stop spreading lies about those drugs. There are much better alternatives for opioids when treating either pain or depression, those drugs atleast work without cooking your brain mr. Scientist
 
And mr scientis for your question i will explain to you codeine other name metylmorphine, is a prodrug to morphine, but notice it has nothing to do with it since i metabolizes in different way, and there are more compounds to it than just morphine. Sam is with 1p- lsd, but this one differently is very similiar to the drug its analogue of. When it comes to heroin, diacetylomorphine, it is firstly metabolized to 6MAM which is mostly responsible for it's action, and this compound is later metabolized to morphine. Heroine is not even a prodrug, it's different compound with it's own mechanism of action (basically it's much stronger).
Again mr. Scientist, i don't think that you are one.
 
DeathIndustrial88 said:
I hear this a lot.

Though it doesn't make sense to me. I've already dealt with and faced all my traumas from the past and still struggle with these issues.
I'm not sure why people think "just facing" issues makes them disappear over night.

The damage done to a person (especially when they're really young) will leave lasting reprecussions, that may never go away. Maybe for some, but not all.

There's also the genetic component. These issues run in my family.
And there's even a theory that most depressed people have some sort of imbalance in their endogenous opioid system.
Would be nice to see more studies done on this theory, cause it seems plausible, considering most drugs cause dopamine release, yet alcohol makes me MORE depressed, where as opioids make me feel NORMAL.

So simply finding and facing trauma's isn't always the answer.
I've been to countless therapists and psyches and am now going on my mid-30's and still deal with depression & anxiety. So sharing and facing all my trauma's with them didn't seem to do a damn thing. lol And I don't actually think about these issues consciously anymore. That's why they're "disorders", because they can happen any time, for any reason.

I mostly take what I need to get through the day. Getting totally fucked up is not exactly what I'm after anymore (like alcohol, combining tons of drugs, etc..)
I'm after normality, motivation, less depressed & anxious mind states, less physical pain, etc... I don't mind if I do happen to get a nice euphoria going from it in my journey of feeling that way either.

Not to mention, just like the Ultimate Fixx Point out, humans have a desire to repeat novel and rewarding experiences.

Not only have humans usesd mind altering substances since the beginning of time, but so do animals.
It would be like telling dolphins they need to face their traumas instead of eating those puffer fish.

Ultimately people want to feel better and feel less bored & opioids are some of the most benign drugs when it comes to organ/brain damage.
Sure, they're highly addictive, but so is sugar, but I don't see anyone trying to get me to face my traumas when I reach for that next soda.

Basically, finding the issue for the pain can be a great thing to do, if you're one of those people who can do that & suddenly move on, free of any problems.
But for a lot of people, it's more than just that and finding the root cause isn't always the solution, nor is it always easy. So in the mean time, I still think people should be able to medicate how they should. I mean you are on a drug forum, would you rather people be locked up in prison and have their freedom taken away for self medicating instead? Cause that's the reality & it needs to end.
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Well if you think getting shitfaced on heroin until your dead or in prison then everyone to their own
 
NapalonyMurzyn said:
Its like saying thay 1p-lsd and lsd is the same drug, its like saying that codeine is the same drug as morphine, you have just told my that you have problem with opioids, if what you,ve said justifies use for you then be it, but stop spreading lies about those drugs. There are much better alternatives for opioids when treating either pain or depression, those drugs atleast work without cooking your brain mr. Scientist
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What's with the unnecessary snark?
'Mr Scientist'? I wasn't being a smart arse, I was just mentioning some facts.

One of those facts is that there are NO chemical differences between crack and powder cocaine, and their pharmacological action on the body is identical. The only difference is that crack leads you to experience a shorter 'sharper' high, but that's due to the method of consumption. As for heroin and morphine, yes here there IS a slight chemical difference, but seconds after administration it splits into its metabolites, the basic active one of which being 6-acetylmorphine which then further metabolizes into morphine. And again the pharmacological action on the body is the same.

Yes of course heroin is stronger than an equivalent dose of morphine, and also generally better tolerated by patients,; which is why it is still legal to prescribe it in a medical setting for severe pain following a heart attack, and for the alleviation of end - stage cancer pain.
Since it also sedates, it is very effective in these instances.

The statistics I mentioned about the negligible rate of addiction among patients who historically were prescribed morphine and heroin, as compared to the population of street users, are from verified studies, and are differences which have long been consistently observed. The fact that you're one of the minority that got themselves stuck on a prescription medicine does not invalidate those percentages, as you seem to believe it does.

Not a single thing I have said is factually incorrect or without data to support it.
Therefore I am not 'spreading lies'.

..Unless of course you're expecting me to spout the usual rhetoric about how drugs can directly 'cause' addiction by a simplistic chemical mechanism, or how unspecified genetic factors supposedly determine addiction, etc. I won't because none of these claims have ever been substantiated ; instead they simply are asserted as dogma by rehab facilities ; and the vast bulk of all available research goes directly against them.


PS There was also no need to explain codeine to me in that other insultingly worded post of yours.
Nor was there any cause to imply I prefer to shoot myself full of heroin rather than deal with life.
Look up basic grammar if you can't understand the difference between past and present tense. I said I have BEEN an addict and that I WAS a junkie. Meaning to say I am NOT NOW.

Also for the record, I'm from a medical household and yes I did indeed study those subjects I mentioned, though I studied out of interest and not with the intention of working in the field.
If I had a PC instead of just a phone I'd post you the sodding diploma.
 
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DeathIndustrial88 said:
I'd also like to point out, that while on opioids (intoxicated or even just at baseline stability level), I still have my emotions. I can still feel happiness, anger, irritability, sadness, but the negative emotions are dampened and the positive ones are highlighted. This is a great feeling & a useful tool for those with major depressive & borderline personality disorder (and other emotional disorders where a person's emotions are TOO strong). And I certainly prefer that opioid feeling over the zombified, apathetic states that most SSRI's & the like produce. You may not feel depressed on an antidepressant anymore, but you might not ever feel happy again either! Just in limbo for an eternity!
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I've felt that way while on Amitryptilene. Yes it pushed the bad feelings down but also all the good ones. I felt like nothing, and eventually this state of numbness became so unbearable I stopped taking them. If you get to the point where you decide suicidal depression is preferable to taking your medication, then the medication isn't working!
Opiates are more selective that way. I can still feel friendship and pleasure etc on a moderate dose, just the pain recedes.
DeathIndustrial88 said:
Opioids were also effective in helping me get jobs done, especially those which required physical labor.
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This is why Chinese workers in America routinely smoked opium. It does have an energizing 'bracing' effect if you don't take too much.
 
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