Police Brutality Thread

[aemetha]

I don't see it as a result of discrimination.

I said the outcome is discriminatory. I didn't say it was the result of discrimination. I'm not arguing that black's are deliberately arrested more often for crimes committed at similar rates. I'm arguing that statistically they are. The result is discriminatory. Not the result of discrimination. There's a distinction there.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

The surveys have been repeated ad nauseum. It's not necessary for them to be completely accurate, we aren't trying to determine exactly how many people are using drugs, we're just trying to establish in what proportions different ethnicities use them. There's nothing in the surveys that make white people more likely to lie and say they do and black people lie and say they don't.

Surveys are not the same as government stats. I treat them with a higher level of scrutiny. You need to consider what the sample population is. Do people who sell crack in ghettos answer surveys as often as suburbanites? Also, what drugs are we talking about? Are black people more likely to use/sell harder drugs? In terms of selling, what quantities are we talking about? The graph you provided doesn't really shed any light on the situation. I'd have to look into it more and I don't have the time/motivation to do so.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Why do you think that cycle got worse after the welfare system was introduced?

If you look at statistics from 70 years ago: Black people weren't disproportionately committing violent crimes; the single parenthood rate was low; and unemployment was low.



I don't see it as a result of discrimination. Clearly the welfare state has had a devastating effect on Black people. Unless you are arguing that welfare is racist, I disagree with you.

I’m with you here. But you’ve jumped from the ‘what’ to the ‘why’ without acknowledging or arguing against the facticity of @aemetha ’s argument. An argument I’ve made a few times in different threads, that a huge number of people seem to wilfully ignore while continuing to infer the problem is black culture or some other aspect of ‘blackness’. I’m not saying you do that, but I think you should engage with this point on the structural vicious circle created by the US justice system. It either exists (as a ‘fact’) or it doesn’t. Where do you stand on the question?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I said the outcome is discriminatory. I didn't say it was the result of discrimination. I'm not arguing that black's are deliberately arrested more often for crimes committed at similar rates. I'm arguing that statistically they are. The result is discriminatory. Not the result of discrimination. There's a distinction there.

I think discriminatory is the wrong word. If they're not deliberately arrested more often, I don't see how you can conclude that there is systemic racism at play?

Where do you stand on the question?

The argument (not the situation) is a bit like a snake biting it's own tail. I'm honestly not sure what the point of the argument is. There needs to be more police in areas with higher crime rates. I'm sure there are more white people arrested in areas with high crime rates than there are in areas with low crime rates.

I don't believe the US justice system is systemically racist.

In Australia, people make the same argument (more or less) about indigenous communities. At the end of the day, I'm not sure what the solution is... other than addressing and solving their internal problems?

Should there be less police officers in areas with high crime rates?

 

[alasdairm]

^ goosfraba.

The amount of time between him dropping the gun and getting shot was mere seconds. He ran for a while. How does the cop know if he has another gun or not?

the officer shouted "show me your fucking hands", the kid raised his hands but less than a second after the shout, he was shot anyway.

do you see another gun presenting an imminent threat?

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

that term is pretty patronizing, eh, birdup?



alasdair

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@alasdairm

the officer shouted "show me your fucking hands", the kid raised his hands but less than a second after the shout, he was shot anyway.

do you see another gun presenting an imminent threat?

I haven't looked into this particular case other than a cursory glance because it doesn't interest me... but, I'm curious: why do you think the officer pulled the trigger?

that term is pretty patronizing, eh, birdup?

I meant it as a joke... and I took it as a joke when you said it to me.

 

[Phoenix_03]

@Blueberry_87

I've already clearly demonstrated at least twice in this thread that Black people commit more violent crimes and, therefore, have more encounters with police. If you look at it in terms of number of encounters vs fatal shootings, white people are shot disproportionately.

@Atelier3

1. Show me statistics to prove your argument
2. Statistics presented
3. Everyone in the thread completely ignores them and has no rebuttal whatsoever
4. Rinse/Repeat ad nauseum

Surveys and statistics are not interchangeable

Police shootings: rate by ethnicity U.S. 2022 | Statista

The rate of fatal police shootings in the United States shows large differences based on ethnicity.

www.statista.com

you asked for statistics, government ones at that. They’ve been presented several times. Now its still not enough? Not sure what you are really trying to say at this point.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Blueberry_87

You're not listening to me. I'm not going to bother retyping it. I'm just going to cut and paste.

I've already clearly demonstrated at least twice in this thread that Black people commit more violent crimes and, therefore, have more encounters with police. If you look at it in terms of number of encounters vs fatal shootings, white people are shot disproportionately.

 

[alasdairm]

why do you think the officer pulled the trigger?

i don't know and i'm not sure speculating is that helpful.

but, i accept that these things happen in a split second and what i'm saying is easy from the comfort of my chair at home.

alasdair

 

[Phoenix_03]

Ted Bundy murdered girls and women in the 1970s and probably in the late 1960s.

You cannot compare the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, or even very early 1990s to today or the 2010s-2020s. There was no internet back then, 99% of people did not have mobile phones as the ones that were first around were super expensive, cameras were not everywhere, and there was no social media, people including young children actually socialized in public or would go out and it was no big deal if nobody knew where they were.

Ted Bundy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I have met and been around two actual diagnosed sociopaths, and a psychopath. They blend in super well, are extremely manipulative, and despite what armchair psychologists claim there are not signs or body/facial language that really makes them stand out.

I am not sure why you are bringing up Ted Bundy versus black people? The majority of black people both in the USA and in other countries are not in gangs, do not sell/use drugs, are good people, and they do not like other black people who are thugs, drug dealers, into drugs, criminals, etc.

If you read what i said, I was not comparing ted bundy to black people. I clearly stated police were able to arrest bundy and bring him in without issue, but when encountering POC as of late, there‘s a trend of violence. You were quick to say Floyd was a drug user multiple times, he pistol whipped a pregnant woman therefore you have no sympathy for what Chauvin did. Bundy committed crimes far worse than Floyd and he managed to still be treated fairly and got his day on court.

 

[Phoenix_03]

@Blueberry_87

You're not listening to me. I'm not going to bother retyping it. I'm just going to cut and paste.

you asked for statistics, i gave them. now I’m not listening. I’ll see myself out.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

You're not listening to me.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

If you read what i said, I was not comparing ted bundy to black people. I clearly stated police were able to arrest bundy and bring him in without issue, but when encountering POC as of late, there‘s a trend of violence. You were quick to say Floyd was a drug user multiple times, he pistol whipped a pregnant woman therefore you have no sympathy for what Chauvin did. Bundy committed crimes far worse than Floyd and he managed to still be treated fairly and got his day on court.

If Ted Bundy had been holding a weapon when police found him he would have been shot.

Also while both Ted Bundy, Duante Wright, and George Floyd are human garbage, losers, and disgusting in the same way, it was important to keep Ted Bundy alive as the FBI and police in multiple states and other regions of the USA had cases where they were certain he had abducted and murdered girls and women, and had raped women. Ted Bundy, Duante Wright, and George Floyd are the type of scum and losers that hate and abuse women, and are only feigning remorse that they get caught.

 

[bediphrent]

Here's what actually happened:

Police heroically save a black teenage girl from being stabbed to death by Ma'Khia Bryant

I'm absolutely convince anyone who would object to this has no idea what the hell they're talking about. The police saved a teenage girl from being stabbed. In the video you can clearly see Ma'Khia Bryant not only with a knife out, but hurling it at someone full speed. I'm sure the family of the girl who was saved from Bryant is very grateful for the brave and brisk actions taken by the police.

She wasn't defending herself either. No need to continue "defending yourself" once the police show up. And no need to defend yourself from someone pinned against a car by stabbing them.

Here's an interesting scenario, imagine Ma'Khia Bryant was white. You would have no idea who she is.

If you have a knife, gun, and are going to hurt or kill someone or you have a history of violence like Duante Wright did, and so did George Floyd when he robbed, beat up, raped and threatened to kill a pregnant woman all so he could buy opiates/fentanyl and METH to shove up his ass and die from an overdose, you are in a gang and pointing a gun at a cop or have a gun you refuse to drop like Adam 'lil homicide' Toledo, or you reach for a cop's gun like Mike Brown did do not be surprised when you get shot.

The real victim was Elijah McClain who died because of EMTs giving him a Ketamine overdose on purpose.

agreed 100% but the truth no longer matters as long as it doesn’t align with the left’s self serving belief system.

 

[ecstacylover]

The real victim was Elijah McClain who died because of EMTs giving him a Ketamine overdose on purpose.

That case in particular is so messed up. I really hope the grand jury ends up indicting someone for that.

 

[aemetha]

I think discriminatory is the wrong word. If they're not deliberately arrested more often, I don't see how you can conclude that there is systemic racism at play?

Discrimination, def: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, sex, or disability.

It doesn't matter that nobody intended to discriminate, the outcome was unjust.

Racism, def: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

If it's discriminatory based on race, it's racism. Again, no requirement for an explicit intention to discriminate.

The argument (not the situation) is a bit like a snake biting it's own tail. I'm honestly not sure what the point of the argument is. There needs to be more police in areas with higher crime rates. I'm sure there are more white people arrested in areas with high crime rates than there are in areas with low crime rates.

That's fine, but how do you address the issue that more policing results in a higher capture rate of crimes committed, resulting in unequal crime rates across different communities. It is the snake biting its own tail. That's the point. There needs to be attention to it to address the inequality. It's essentially giving a free pass to some communities to commit crimes that are not given a free pass in others.

 

[burn out]

If you read what i said, I was not comparing ted bundy to black people. I clearly stated police were able to arrest bundy and bring him in without issue, but when encountering POC as of late, there‘s a trend of violence. You were quick to say Floyd was a drug user multiple times, he pistol whipped a pregnant woman therefore you have no sympathy for what Chauvin did. Bundy committed crimes far worse than Floyd and he managed to still be treated fairly and got his day on court.

You say you weren't comparing him to black people and then proceed to...compare him to black people? I still don't understand what your point was about Ted Bundy and I notice you ignored my post about him earlier in the thread.

To reiterate, plenty of black serial killers have been arrested without being killed, such as Samual Little and white people who were completely innocent and doing their best to comply with police orders have been killed, like Daniel Shaver. The vast majority of arrests happen without anyone dying, especially if they don't resist arrest so what does Ted Bundy prove? How does one case prove anything?

If I gave you an example of a black criminal who resisted arrest but was not shot and juxtaposed that with a case like Daniel Shaver who did not resist arrest and was shot, would you conclude that the police were racist against white people based on that one example?

 

[burn out]

The surveys have been repeated ad nauseum. It's not necessary for them to be completely accurate, we aren't trying to determine exactly how many people are using drugs, we're just trying to establish in what proportions different ethnicities use them. There's nothing in the surveys that make white people more likely to lie and say they do and black people lie and say they don't.


Of course they do, that's the point.

More police = more apprehensions = more priors, more convictions, more police, more criminal records creating barriers to employment and increasing poverty = more apprehensions = etc etc.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle. Those confounding factors go both ways.

Again, the point isn't to say police are overtly racist, or that policing policy is overtly racist. It's to show that the outcomes of the system are discriminatory against black people and therefore systemically racist. It doesn't matter that black people have more priors. It matters that black people are convicted more often for crimes they commit at similar rates to white people. The system perpetuates unequal outcomes from the justice system.

In many ways it's a shame that racist is used so often as a slur. The mention of the word makes people offended and they can't get past that. Please understand that I'm not calling any person a racist here. I'm saying there is evidence of a cycle which results in black people being disproportionately dealt with by the criminal justice system. I'm not even saying that it's every situation, but where there is inequity in a system, the right thing to do is to try and improve the system so there isn't.

I never denied black people were part of a system that result in more of them being incarcerated but you seem to be ignoring the fact that this is often conflated with the idea of police intentionally targeting black people. A lot of people in this country believe that police wake up in the morning thinking about how many black people they can shoot that day. They think the killing of Daunte Wright was intentional and they think when a black person is killed by police, it was because he was black.

It matters that black people are convicted more often for crimes they commit at similar rates to white people. The system perpetuates unequal outcomes from the justice system.

But a white drug user, living in a city with a lot of police is also more likely to be arrested than a white drug user living in rural Virginia. For the sake of argument, let's ignore all other factors for a moment and pretend that people who live in cities are more likely to be arrested than people who live in the country and more black people live in cities. Obviously that will mean a disproportionate number of black people are arrested. But that doesn't mean the justice system is somehow malfunctioning, it's simply because more black people live in cities. What would your solution be? Just let some black criminals go so the numbers match?

 

[burn out]

To give you an idea what my point is, I have noticed this argument that a policy is "discriminatory" and "racist" crops up quite a lot. I'm not saying that this should necessarily be ignored but it also needs to be considered that it's almost impossible to make a policy or a system that has exactly the same effect on everyone. There is always going to be some group that it "discriminates" against. Sometimes that is apparently accepted. For example, coronavirus lockdowns discriminated against black people because black people are more likely to hold so called "essential" jobs and being forced to go to work while white upper middle class people got to work from home. Yet I didn't hear a whole lot about how racist lockdowns were from the media, or even if they did mention it, it wasn't often used a reason they should be lifted.