Police Brutality Thread

[dalpat077]

I'll leave you with this (because I cannot keep this up i.e. it riles me too much).

I watched this the other day. Didn't post it because it was off topic (I try believe it or not) (usually with little to no success but I do try).

I assume, based on one or two comments, that this thread has been allowed to move slightly beyond the topic and to include police brutality etc. (maybe a suggestion to edit the thread title to include the same).

Below is a slightly dated video. But there's a fucking message here.

Cop fired for losing his shit after a bunch of youngsters drove past and one yelling "fuck the police". Personal opinion: he was doing the dude a goddamn favor. Wanna have me a bet that this same dude hasn't ended up in the system, or worse, by now? (Matter of fact: dude already been in shit before this incident as is obvious from the footage).

 

[aemetha]

All of these pro-life and anti law enforcement pundits. I'd love to put them in a position where they'd be forced to make a split second decision between themselves and their own well being and a some unknown person who is behaving erratically (at very least) in some dark alley somewhere.

In 2019 there were 49 US police officers violently killed in the line of duty. In the same year US police officers violently killed 1146 people. Now, I'm not arguing that all, or even most of those were unjustified. The suggestion that there is any kind of equivalent risk to police as there is to suspects is clearly a false narrative though.

To provide a comparison with other similar countries. In the UK police killings of suspects were 0.5 per 10,000,000. In Australia 1.7. In New Zealand 2.1. In Canada 9.7. In the US 34.8. The argument that police have to take those shots falls flat when it can so clearly be shown that other police forces don't have to take those shots.

Again, not saying that all of it is unnecessary, but clearly other police forces are doing things differently and fewer people are dying. By dogmatically supporting the US police and their status quo tactics you create a barrier to improvement. That doesn't have to mean disbanding the police, but better training, more use of de-escalation tactics, better gun controls etc are improvements that should be debated, investigated and implemented where it can be shown to improve things.

Bottom line, police's job is to apprehend suspects and deliver them to the judiciary for judgement. When they kill a suspect, they failed to do their job.

 

[dalpat077]

In 2019 there were 49 US police officers violently killed in the line of duty. In the same year US police officers violently killed 1146 people. Now, I'm not arguing that all, or even most of those were unjustified. The suggestion that there is any kind of equivalent risk to police as there is to suspects is clearly a false narrative though.

To provide a comparison with other similar countries. In the UK police killings of suspects were 0.5 per 10,000,000. In Australia 1.7. In New Zealand 2.1. In Canada 9.7. In the US 34.8. The argument that police have to take those shots falls flat when it can so clearly be shown that other police forces don't have to take those shots.

Again, not saying that all of it is unnecessary, but clearly other police forces are doing things differently and fewer people are dying. By dogmatically supporting the US police and their status quo tactics you create a barrier to improvement. That doesn't have to mean disbanding the police, but better training, more use of de-escalation tactics, better gun controls etc are improvements that should be debated, investigated and implemented where it can be shown to improve things.

Bottom line, police's job is to apprehend suspects and deliver them to the judiciary for judgement. When they kill a suspect, they failed to do their job.

Hey. Nice post. Given that this isn't a legal argument though: permission requested to disagree with you on some points?

Statistics in 2019 (or any other year obviously)? All good and well. But I have to wonder how many of those 1 146 people would be alive today vs. the 49 police officers killed had the police officers involved in the killing of the 1 146 people not killed as many.

Anecdotally: those figures ain't too bad though let's be honest. Not when you consider the size of the population. To be brutally honest: seeing those statistics makes me wonder what the fuss is about anyway (and I'll include myself in that). I honestly thought such figures would be way higher.

I don't think it prudent to be comparing law enforcement in the US to those countries that you mention. And for many many reasons. Not least of which are population size, demographics, and gun control. But for sure: two of those mentioned (the two latter) could end up being a huge discussion and debate (and shit show) on their own. I'm sure I don't have to state which side of the fence I'm on insofar as gun control is though!

And obviously I disagree with them having failed to do their job if a suspect is killed. Sometimes the suspects have left law enforcement no other choice.

Anyway. Try as I might (and as I've noted already): my default position isn't going to change. I'm sure there's mistakes made. And I'm sure there's collateral damage sometimes. But I put it to you that such instances are very rare. And if those statistics are correct (and I've no reason to believe otherwise i.e. I trust you): well then the numbers are hardly what I'd call material in the bigger scheme of things.

But listen up. Your post prompted me to look up our statistics. See below. Dunno what ya'll are crying and squealing about! We're not I can tell you that much. And believe it or not: we have law and order here.

"Back in September 2019, I attempted to provide some comparative perspective on South African police violence. Based on what was then Ipid’s most recent 2017/2018 data alongside data from the Washington Post and independent research initiative Mapping Police Violence (MPV) on United States police violence in 2018, I found that South African police killed roughly three times as many people per capita as American police. (If you use the Post’s data, which only counts police shootings, the precise number is 3.25; if you use MPV’s data, the number is 2.95.)"

In fairness: the journalist did some fancy footwork with the numbers and got it down to 2.36!

Police killings: How does South Africa compare?

An examination of South African statistics reveal that the police are substantially more violent than those in the United States or Canada

mg.co.za

I know this if off topic but included for a bit of a laugh. Ya'll think your cops are tough? Check this dude out.

Just another day, another traffic stop and fine, another criminal, whatever!

 

[birdup.snaildown]

In 2019 there were 49 US police officers violently killed in the line of duty. In the same year US police officers violently killed 1146 people. Now, I'm not arguing that all, or even most of those were unjustified. The suggestion that there is any kind of equivalent risk to police as there is to suspects is clearly a false narrative though.

There is more risk to officers, because they get shot and killed innocently doing their job.

Tell me how many people get shot and killed per year (by police) that are totally innocent.

Anecdotally: those figures ain't too bad though let's be honest. Not when you consider the size of the population. To be brutally honest: seeing those statistics makes me wonder what the fuss is about anyway (and I'll include myself in that). I honestly thought such figures would be way higher.

Indeed. If you remove the people who are pointing guns at police or trying to grab their gun or otherwise assaulting them, you aren't left with much.

The reason people go on and on about Breonna Taylor is because she is one of the very few examples of unarmed innocent people being shot to death by police... and her boyfriend started shooting at the police before they pulled the trigger.

The truth is: in a population of over 300 million, there are not a lot of incidents.

The MSM lies and people believe it.

BLM is bullshit.

 

[dalpat077]

Back to the seriousness of the topic.

This may sober some up.

Scroll nice and slow through the endless lists of fallen officers (including K9's, DEA Agents, FBI Agents, you get the picture) and really look at them.

I wonder how well their families are being looked after?

The Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP)

The Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP) is dedicated to remembering all law enforcement officers who have fallen in the line of duty.

www.odmp.org

 

[dalpat077]

and her boyfriend started shooting at the police before they pulled the trigger.

Yeah. Isn't it funny how this little factoid is always omitted from the narrative.

But oh wait: the "no knock" warrants shouldn't be a thing. That's the problem right? I remember that being a thing at the time.

The MSM lies and people believe it.

BLM is bullshit.

This is the problem. And I'm sure you saw my posts of this morning i.e. now I'm seeing it play out in real time right here because of the Hawaii incident. You will not believe the Tweets and FaceBook comments that are floating around here right now (only reason I know is because my girlfriend, bless her soul, is on Twitter and FaceBook and has been pointing them out to me as they come through this morning). Fuck me. These people either have only seen the headline, without actually bothering with detail, and decided to push the race vs. US law enforcement narrative, or they're being paid to do it, or they're bots., or they've not seen the body cam footage, or they're just dumb as fuck, or they are the racists!

Just look at the Tweets on this page below (page from our National Broadcaster). It's fucking disgusting.

Honolulu police say SA man's fatal shooting had nothing to do with race - SABC News - Breaking news, special reports, world, business, sport coverage of all South African current events. Africa's news leader.

Twenty nine-year-old Lindani Sanele Myeni, who hails from KwaZulu-Natal, was shot in a peculiar confrontation with police after they responded to a 911 call of a burglary in progress.

www.sabcnews.com

 

[dalpat077]

Oh here we go. This courtesy of my perusing another link where they're giving out free drugs i.e. followed that link and came up with this.

I wonder if there's some sort of price list i.e. amount of settlement directly proportionate to the seriousness of the charges brought against law enforcement officers?

Daunte Wright’s Family Wants More Serious Charges Against Former Minnesota Cop

White former Minnesota police officer Kimberly A. Potter was charged with second-degree manslaughter in the death of 20-year-old Black man Daunte Wright.

www.complex.com

 

[birdup.snaildown]

To provide a comparison with other similar countries. In the UK police killings of suspects were 0.5 per 10,000,000. In Australia 1.7. In New Zealand 2.1. In Canada 9.7. In the US 34.8. The argument that police have to take those shots falls flat when it can so clearly be shown that other police forces don't have to take those shots.

You need to look at more factors.

Australia is not the United States. There is less crime. There are less homicides. And pretty much nobody (including criminals) walk around with concealed weapons.

Furthermore (as I pointed out earlier in this thread) there are 12 US states with lower homicide rates than Victoria Australia.

I don't think police have to shoot as much as they do, but - surely - it's understandable that police are more trigger happy working in high-risk areas?

You also need to take into account race.

A while back, I took federal stats and separated Black homicides from white homicides in the United States. The Black homicide rate (per 100,000) was similar to the most war-torn countries in the world. The white homicide rate was similar to Canada.

Black people are disproportionately shot by police in the United States because they disproportionately commit violent crime.

There's a rule on Qantas flights (Qantas is an Australian airline) that says men aren't allowed to sit beside unaccompanied minors... This rule used to bother me, but eventually I accepted that men are statistically more likely to be sexually inappropriate with children. I'm more comfortable with my daughter sitting beside a woman.

When I walk down the street at night, I am more threatened by men than women.

I am a man, but the truth is men are statistically more likely to rape people and they are statistically more likely to murder people. It is an inconvenient truth. I don't like it, but I can't pretend like it doesn't influence my decisions in terms of being risk averse.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Male Homicide Victims, 2019 (by race)

US population 328,200,000

Black 6,446 (from 6.5% of the US population) = 30.22/100,000
White 2,258 (from 30% of the US population) = 2.29/100,000
Hispanic 1,768 (from 9.2% of the US population) = 5.86/100,000

People are overwhelmingly killed by their own race. Therefore, these statistics can be used as rough guidelines for isolating race. These are the numbers I got using statisa/etc.

The white male homicide victim rate is close to Canada.

The obvious response (from past experience) is: well, that's because Black guys are being gunned down. There is no willingness to engage with reality.

At the end of the day, you can't fix a problem if you can't admit it exists.

 

[Zephyn]

In huaraz, peru, the police force is 100% women, and after talking to them, they said if they shot someone, even someone armed, they'd lose their job. This was like, 5 years ago. Seemed to be a very peaceful place. Some of the nicest cops I've met.

 

[alasdairm]

Tell me how many people get shot and killed per year (by police) that are totally innocent.

all of them.

in the eyes of the law, they’re all innocent until proven guilty.

when your argument is, well they appear to have committed a crime so it’s ok to shortcut the system and for the police to execute them, you’re throwing due process and constitutional rights out the window.

alasdair

 

[deficiT]

all of them.

in the eyes of the law, they’re all innocent until proven guilty.

when your argument is, well they appear to have committed a crime so it’s ok to shortcut the system and for the police to execute them, you’re throwing due process and constitutional rights out the window.

alasdair

Who needs due process or constitutional rights when it's easier to just execute people for allegedly committing misdemeanors?

 

[assclass]

Who needs due process or constitutional rights when it's easier to just execute people for allegedly committing misdemeanors?

Judge Dredd is cool

 

[aemetha]

People are overwhelmingly killed by their own race. Therefore, these statistics can be used as rough guidelines for isolating race. These are the numbers I got using statisa/etc.

The white male homicide victim rate is close to Canada.

The obvious response (from past experience) is: well, that's because Black guys are being gunned down. There is no willingness to engage with reality.

At the end of the day, you can't fix a problem if you can't admit it exists.

I'm a little confused about your point here. Are you suggesting they shouldn't hire black police because black people are more likely to shoot black people? (rhetorical question)

I think you've missed my point. My point is that the US is similar to those countries I listed. Those countries in fact work closely together on the international stage because of their shared cultural values. Obviously they aren't exactly the same, but that's the case with every comparison. They are similar enough that you should see similar statistics, and when you don't that helps identify things that can be changed which will alter the statistics in significant ways.

There is less crime. There are less homicides. And pretty much nobody (including criminals) walk around with concealed weapons.

You're doing part of that here, but you're stopping too soon. Identifying reasons for the difference shouldn't be the end of the discussion, it should be the start. The reasons are not excuses for awful statistics, they are things to target to change to improve the statistics. Less crime in Australia? Okay, well if that's true (and I haven't looked so I don't know how accurate that is) perhaps more police resources need to be allocated to crime prevention. Fewer people with concealed weapons? Perhaps more gun control is required.

Please understand, I did not suggest police were killing more people in the US because of racism. I did not attempt to address the racial disparity in homicide rates in the United States. I talked about police shooting statistics and highlighted that US police are doing something different to other similar countries. The point is to look at the differences and figure out what to change. I am honestly baffled that people are more willing to make excuses for a police shooting rate that is 15 times higher than it is in our countries than they are to look for ways to fix it.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

in the eyes of the law, they’re all innocent until proven guilty.

It is pretty clear what I meant. The police are shot and killed doing their job. The vast majority of people shot by police are shot committing crimes. If you compare unarmed victims of police shootings that aren't (allegedly) committing crimes to people shooting police, it's more dangerous to be a cop.

The cops don't go around indiscriminately shooting people. They aren't frequently gunning people down on the street for no reason.

when your argument is, well they appear to have committed a crime so it’s ok to shortcut the system and for the police to execute them

Ugh. That's not my argument.

When did I say it's okay for the police to "execute" anyone?

I did not attempt to address the racial disparity in homicide rates in the United States.

Yeah, I know. You totally ignored everything I said about race.

The point is to look at the differences and figure out what to change. I am honestly baffled that people are more willing to make excuses for a police shooting rate that is 15 times higher than it is in our countries than they are to look for ways to fix it.

You can't figure out what to change if you're not honest about what the problem is.

I'm not making any excuses.

The white homicide rate is not 15 times than Canada. It is close to the same. The black homicide rate is (roughly) 15 times Canada. The problem largely exists in African American communities. This is why the average stats in the US are inflated.

perhaps more police resources need to be allocated to crime prevention... Perhaps more gun control is required.

Your solutions are completely ignoring the actual problem. The white homicide rate in the US is similar to Canada. The Black homicide rate is higher than Mexico.

If you have one group of people committing a disproportionate amount of violent crime, they are going to have more encounters with police and the odds of being shot will increase.

The solution (to Black people being shot by police) involves fixing the core problems in the US that cause African Americans to disproportionately commit various crimes. I don't believe the problem can be fixed by reforming police, because police are not the core of the problem.

BLM has a tendency to focus on white people (and cops) murdering black people, but that's not what's really happening in the US. Most Black people are killed by Black people.

 

[Zephyn]

It is pretty clear what I meant. The police are shot and killed doing their job. The vast majority of people shot by police are shot committing crimes. If you compare unarmed victims of police shootings that aren't (allegedly) committing crimes to people shooting police, it's more dangerous to be a cop.

The cops don't go around indiscriminately shooting people. They aren't frequently gunning people down on the street for no reason.



Ugh. That's not my argument.

When did I say it's okay for the police to "execute" anyone?



Yeah, I know. You totally ignored everything I said about race.



You can't figure out what to change if you're not honest about what the problem is.

I'm not making any excuses.

The white homicide rate is not 15 times than Canada. It is close to the same. The black homicide rate is (roughly) 15 times Canada. The problem largely exists in African American communities. This is why the average stats in the US are inflated.



Your solutions are completely ignoring the actual problem. The white homicide rate in the US is similar to Canada. The Black homicide rate is higher than Mexico.

If you have one group of people committing a disproportionate amount of violent crime, they are going to have more encounters with police and the odds of being shot will increase.

The solution (to Black people being shot by police) involves fixing the core problems in the US that cause African Americans to disproportionately commit various crimes. I don't believe the problem can be fixed by reforming police, because police are not the core of the problem.

BLM has a tendency to focus on white people (and cops) murdering black people, but that's not what's really happening in the US. Most Black people are killed by Black people.

okay, maybe you have a point, but then poverty is obviously the problem. reparations might (scratch that ARE due), but too many impoverished white people would flip a shit. designing better social safety nets like they have in the rest of the developed world would be better, on top of reparations, maybe.

and nevermind that, police brutality is seriously an issue all around, and if you can't admit that you aren't from the USA, or have just not been unlucky yet (idk how, personally, especially as drug users)..

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Zephyn

I know police brutality is an issue, but it isn't the issue.

poverty is obviously the problem

If poverty was the problem, then all impoverished areas in the world would have similar crime rates and they don't. The problem runs deeper than money.

reparations... ARE due

This isn't the solution.

How much money do you give to each individual and where does the money come from?

Giving people money generally doesn't solve complex social problems. In many situations, it creates them.

Let's assume the problem is poverty, as you said. If that is so, we should give poor people money. It doesn't make much sense to give Will Smith and Oprah cash because they're Black.

The government already redistributes wealth.

You can argue that the US government doesn't provide as much support as the Australian government, but I'd argue that a lot of Australian welfare payments are too high.

I analysed the Australian system recently.

Here's an example.

You have one child under 5. One parent works part time and the other works full time. The full-time parent earns 43k (around minimum wage) and the part-time parent earns 12k.

After tax and benefits, you net approximately 62k.

If you change the full-time salary to 33k and leave everything else exactly the same, the family nets 61k.

The difference is $1,184.80

That's 483 hours of work (per year) for $1,184.80... or AUD$2.45 per hour.

There is no point for either parent to work full time in this scenario.

If you give people too much money, you take away the incentive to work.

 

[aemetha]

Your solutions are completely ignoring the actual problem. The white homicide rate in the US is similar to Canada. The Black homicide rate is higher than Mexico.

You're trying to fix a problem that is not the point of this thread. I never cited the homicide rate. I cited the rates at which police are killed and at which police kill civilians. The rate of that is 3.5 times higher in the US than in Canada. 15 times that in Australia and New Zealand. What's the difference between the countries policing tactics? I can give you some examples off the top of my head between New Zealand and the US.

1. Police are subject to investigation by an independent authority in New Zealand.
2. Police are required to submit a report every time they draw a firearm in New Zealand.
3. New Zealand has stricter gun controls.
4. New Zealand has fewer high density, low income, highly policed neighbourhoods which concentrate social factors leading to violent crime and violent responses from police.
5. New Zealand has a significantly less militarized police force which attracts different kinds of recruits.
6. New Zealand doesn't allow police unions to dictate how police actions are investigated as part of employment conditions.

Racial disparities in homicide rates are worth discussing, but that isn't the point of this thread, and honestly you have not demonstrated a clear link between those and the rates at which police kill people. Even if you can demonstrate a link, that doesn't invalidate the effect any of the myriad of other differences that factor into the difference in rates of police killings. My point is, as I stated before, these differences should be discussed and analysed to see how they may be applied in the US to address the fact that US police kill far more civilians than other countries with shared cultural values.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

New Zealand police are too soft. Ask anyone from NZ.

Australian sentences are a fucking joke.

I never cited the homicide rate.

I didn't say you did. I cited it to illustrate my point.

you have not demonstrated a clear link between those and the rates at which police kill people

It's plainly obvious if a certain group of people commit more crime, they are going to be more likely to encounter police and (therefore) more likely to be fatally shot by police.

There have been a lot of comments in this thread about racial motivations behind police killing black people like George Floyd.

...

If you break down race in terms of people in the US shot to death by police, you get roughly 20 per 10 million for the white population. Australia is around 8.5 per 10 million... That's not 15 times. It's less than 2.5 times and pretty much nobody in Australia carries a concealed weapon.

Now if you isolate stats for the Black population, it works out to about 50 per 10 million killed by the police. Still not 15 times Australia. But I agree there is clearly a problem.

The question is whether or not the problem is racist gun-toting police or (as I established earlier) the disproportionate amount of crime committed by certain people of certain ethnicities. It seems - to me - that there is stronger evidence for the latter.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

4. New Zealand has fewer high density, low income, highly policed neighbourhoods which concentrate social factors leading to violent crime and violent responses from police.

Indeed...

Although, are they highly policed because of the increased violent crime?
(Or is it the other way around?)

3. New Zealand has stricter gun controls.

The homicide rate didn't change dramatically in NZ or Australia after their respective gun buyback programs. I am pro gun-control, but I think a big part of the problem in America is cultural attitudes towards guns rather than gun control. There are massive cultural problems in African American communities. All this gangster rap shit has significantly contributed to the problem. BLM (and the lies they perpetuate) have done the same thing.

For some unknown reason, people (mostly white people) are obsessed with convincing black people that white people want to kill them and the police murder people because of the colour of their skin. This is demonstrably untrue. It doesn't help.