Social Justice White/Straight/Cis/Male Privilege

[JessFR]

I didn't compare definitions of racism. I made an observation that things are getting worse in the US for black communities, not better. If this is due to systemic racism, the US must be getting more racist... at least in some way.

Well IF it's due to systematic racism yes, but there are likely many factors influencing the broader picture.

The very question of "is America more racist now?" is fairly problematic because of how large and diverse America is. It might be worse in some places and better run others. Or have improved in some respects while deteriorating in others.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I would appreciate it (in reference to the bold bit) if you don't make personal comments. It hasn't declined. It has gone significantly backwards. Look, perhaps I have a blind spot with race. It is not intentional. Would appreciate it if you don't call me a racist. As for the statistical argument, I'm not trying to link the decline. It is well documented, in the US and many other countries. See: Thomas Sowell and others.

If I over-interpreted some of your posts then I most sincerely apologise. I am not calling you a racist but it appeared to me you were making moral judgements about black people and blaming some of their marital and child-rearing practices for their socio-economic condition. It also appeared to me that you were pretty much relying on this one variable to explain something incredibly complex.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Other way around. The socio-economic condition (inflicted by the welfare state) negatively influenced the marital and child-rearing practices of certain African American - and certain white American - communities. The link between welfare and single parenthood rates has been well documented all over the world. It has nothing to do with the colour of skin, as far as I'm concerned.

There are real (and very strong) explanations for what is going wrong in America with race. It doesn't help (the people that are actually suffering) for us to be selective scientifically. Racism has gone from overt to covert. Maybe. Maybe even though we can't see it, we still assume it is the explanation. Or maybe it is the thing that we definitely can see... the thing that is well documented... the thing that is right in front of us?

The very question of "is America more racist now?" is fairly problematic because of how large and diverse America is. It might be worse in some places and better run others. Or have improved in some respects while deteriorating in others.

You know a lot of black people in the US that would rather grow up in the 1960s?

Give me a break @JessFR.
This is getting ridiculous.

Can we establish that America is now less racist than it was 100/150/200 years ago... or is that, too, vaguely dismissable because of "diversity"?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

"It's amazing because the data I used - typically the data has existed for some time - and available to anyone who'd care to go look it up rather than just repeat things that have been said before."

Thomas Sowell, 1981

 

[JessFR]

Other way around. The socio-economic condition (inflicted by the welfare state) negatively influenced the marital and child-rearing practices of certain African American - and certain white American - communities. The link between welfare and single parenthood rates has been well documented all over the world. It has nothing to do with the colour of skin, as far as I'm concerned.

There are real (and very strong) explanations for what is going wrong in America with race. It doesn't help (the people that are actually suffering) for us to be selective scientifically. Racism has gone from overt to covert. Maybe. Maybe even though we can't see it, we still assume it is the explanation. Or maybe it is the thing that we definitely can see... the thing that is well documented... the thing that is right in front of us?



You know a lot of black people in the US that would rather grow up in the 1960s?

Give me a break @JessFR.
This is getting ridiculous.

Can we establish that America is now less racist than it was 100/150/200 years ago... or is that, too, vaguely dismissable because of "diversity"?

Well I think it's pretty safe to say it's less racist than the days of slavery yeah. But less racist than say, the 70sish (50 years ago)? I'd say that's harder to define.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

But less racist than say, the 70sish (50 years ago)? I'd say that's harder to define.

So... the demographics of billionaires - worldwide - and the history of US presidents (including presidents during periods of slavery) is evidence that the US is systemically currently racist against black people, but it's hard to define any shift in racism over the course of 50/60 years?

I don't think you're being honest. You're seeing what you want to see and not seeing what you don't want to. There have been a massive amount of improvements in the past half century.

Can I ask you something, dude? You said you encounter anti-black comments on the internet all the time. Where are you finding this stuff? I don't encounter that sort of mentality. I'm not actively seeking it out, but I'm not actively avoiding it either.

People being openly racist against black people is very unusual from my experiences... and I've lived in: Africa, Asia, North America, Australia and Europe.

Are you browsing white supremacist forums or something?

 

[Jabberwocky]

So... the demographics of billionaires - worldwide - and the history of US presidents (including presidents during periods of slavery) is evidence that the US is systemically currently racist against black people, but it's hard to define any shift in racism over the course of 50/60 years?

I don't think you're being honest. You're seeing what you want to see and not seeing what you don't want to. There have been a massive amount of improvements in the past half century.

Can I ask you something, dude? You said you encounter anti-black comments on the internet all the time. Where are you finding this stuff? I don't encounter that sort of mentality. I'm not actively seeking it out, but I'm not actively avoiding it either.

People being openly racist against black people is very unusual from my experiences... and I've lived in: Africa, Asia, North America, Australia and Europe.

Are you browsing white supremacist forums or something?

She doesn’t have to leave Bluelight to find it. We have a number of white separatists here who are reasonably careful to avoid incriminating themselves as white supremacists. But they are still as racist as fuck.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Fair enough. I guess I haven't run into them yet. There are a lot of accusations of racism around here, but not a lot of overtly racist stuff. I honestly can't remember reading anything racist on CEPS but I haven't been here long. I guess it gets moderated pretty quickly.

 

[JessFR]

Can I ask you something, dude? You said you encounter anti-black comments on the internet all the time. Where are you finding this stuff? I don't encounter that sort of mentality. I'm not actively seeking it out, but I'm not actively avoiding it either.

People being openly racist against black people is very unusual from my experiences... and I've lived in: Africa, Asia, North America, Australia and Europe.

Are you browsing white supremacist forums or something?

Uhh, here? I was actually thinking about here. Wait till certain individuals feel relaxed, then it comes out.

Also it's worth keeping in mind that as staff I get a direct feed to all the sites most objectionable content too so it'll be easier for me and other staff to notice it and who's had a history of it.

That said, a fair few individuals do a damn impressive job at sitting right behind the line.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Fair enough. I guess I haven't run into them yet. There are a lot of accusations of racism around here, but not a lot of overtly racist stuff. I honestly can't remember reading anything racist on CEPS but I haven't been here long. I guess it gets moderated pretty quickly.

The most common actual form of racism/bigotry on Bluelight is people taking some actual negative characteristic of some members of another racial, ethnic, or religious group and then generalising to the entire population.

Which is a shame because discussions about the sub-groups of a population (e.g Nigerian drug dealers, single US black mothers on welfare) are usually valid and interesting when conducted with a bit of nuance.

 

[JessFR]

The most common actual form of racism/bigotry on Bluelight is people taking some actual negative characteristic of some members of another racial, ethnic, or religious group and then generalising to the entire population.

Which is a shame because discussions about the sub-groups of a population (e.g Nigerian drug dealers, single US black mothers on welfare) are usually valid and interesting when conducted with a bit of nuance.

Yeah, they're not stupid. They know how to keep their racism fairly deniable. Except for the rare occasion when they lose themselves and get a bit too into it, they're usually pretty good at making the racism pretty evidence, but still deniable enough that they can try and win the benefit of the doubt.

Lol, one particularly memorable example I recall was some guy asking openly something along the lines of "am I a racist just because I hate black people because of how they've treated me?".

To which I answered.. Yeah.. You absolutely are. I got the sense he thought it was entirely sensible that because he'd had negative experiences with black people that it's perfectly find to hate them and prefer to be with whites.

That's a particularly bad example but I see lower level racist comments all the time.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

I have seen a lot of that with anti-republican stuff.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Atelier3

I have seen a lot of that with anti-republican stuff.

I think that’s true. But essentialising or stereotyping people based on their political views is not quite the same thing as doing so on the basis of their gender, ethnicity, or sexuality.

But it still irks me as well because it’s intellectually weak and lowers the overall quality of discussions - just like the people on the otherside who say “libtards”.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Either of you watch this?

It's a long video, but if you get at least 15/20 minutes in you will see that Sowell has spent his life analysing the economics of race and has some very interesting things to say.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Either of you watch this?

It's a long video, but if you get at least 15/20 minutes in you will see that Sowell has spent his life analysing the economics of race and has some very interesting things to say.

I haven’t but I will on your recommendation. Thanks.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

stereotyping people based on their political views is not quite the same thing as doing so on the basis of their gender, ethnicity, or sexuality.

I don't see any difference. People used to say the same thing about sexuality and gender and ethnicity. You can't just change your politics.

 

[JessFR]

I don't see any difference. People used to say the same thing about sexuality and gender and ethnicity. You can't just change your politics.

Yeah you can. You can honestly and openly wish to better yourself and question yourself and challenge your beliefs and come to new beliefs.

The only sense in which you can't help it is perhaps in the sense that a evil person is just an evil person, doesn't wanna change and can't help how they are. Well, so be it, but the rest of us aren't going to be very accommodating to them because of their destructive and harmful behaviors and beliefs.

Also, I would assert that sexualities genders races etc are all fundamentally equal. While different political positions are not, some are right and some are wrong. Some are positive and constructive, some harmful and ultimately destructive.

That's why it's OK to judge political positions in a way that's not OK with sex's, sexualities, races and so on.

I would argue that the group form of political beliefs are essentially cultures. And I'd say judging cultures can indeed be valid in a way that judging races isn't.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Yeah you can. You can honestly and openly wish to better yourself and question yourself and challenge your beliefs and come to new beliefs.

Write what you said here down on a piece of paper, go into the bathroom, and look at yourself in the mirror. Then take a deep breath and read it to yourself.



I mean people cannot just flick a switch and change.

While different political positions are not, some are right and some are wrong.

This is very dangerous territory. Some extreme political ideas are wrong. White supremacy is wrong. As far as sexuality goes, fucking kids is wrong. But, conservatism isn't wrong. You can't justify mistreating people because you disagree with them.

 

[JessFR]

Write what you said here down on a piece of paper, go into the bathroom, and look at yourself in the mirror. Then take a deep breath and read it to yourself.



I mean people cannot just flick a switch and change.



This is very dangerous territory. Some extreme political ideas are wrong. White supremacy is wrong. As far as sexuality goes, fucking kids is wrong. But, conservatism isn't wrong. You can't justify mistreating people because you disagree with them.

Pedophilia isn't a sexuality. And as for people, they can't flick a switch and change but they most definitely can strive to change over time.

And I dunno about mistreating people but I most definitely can dislike them for their beliefs.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I didn't mean to say being a pedo was a sexual preference, but that it falls under the umbrella of sexuality... however, according to most psychologists, it also doesn't appear to be a choice.

Ideally, you shouldn't dislike conservative people because they're conservative and you certainly shouldn't mistreat them because they are conservative. Perhaps (if for no other reason) it's difficult to change somebody's mind if you don't treat them with respect. There's a difference between disliking an idea and disliking a person.

Muslims and Christians have a conservative view of sex. I don't like/dislike people based on their religious ideologies and I don't like/dislike people because they sit somewhere on the left or somewhere on the right of centre.